SGOTM 15 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

Ronnie1 · Jan 25, 2012

OK...with a little bit different micro(thanks aj), I can get a setter walking on T35 going from size 3 by either AG 1st or Hunting 1st.

The difference shows up in having a few turns of hammers (6 :hammers:

) invested into "something" while waiting for the city to grow to size 3 if we go HUNTING first. This comes at a loss of :science:

. I am not sure of the total because in testing, for some reason the difference in tech choice makes another AI show up sooner. This affects the known tech modifier of course. The result is basically 1 turn ahead, approximately 20 :science:

on the next tech.

Settler at size 2 will be tested next for hammer and commerce differences.

Sleepless · Jan 25, 2012

I agree fastest way to settler would be mine stone and camp deer so hunting first then agr. Managed to get the settler built and ready to move turn 32 this way with 1 turn at 0 growth to get the first warrior out earlier.

One thing we do need to find out is how near Tok is. No guarantee the scout wasn't put near our borders though doubtful its a possibility.

Not keen on a worker steal if he is close as we would need to concentrate more on military/choking though that in itself wouldn't be bad either.

adrianj · Jan 25, 2012

I'm playing the spreadsheet miromanagement game. Assuming I have things set up correctly, it looks like I can replicate Sleepless' settler moving T32 scenario.
(re: my setup, do we need 20 food to grow to size 2, or is it 22? Does a mine take 5 turns to build, and a camp the same? Eg, start on T14, complete T18, worker moving T19?)

T12: Working deer tile. Worker built. Poly completes.
T13: Working corn tile. Worker moves to stone. Start Hunting.
T14: Worker beings stone mine.
T15:
T16:
T17:
T18: Still working corn tile. Food bin at EOT will be 18/22. Hunting learned EOT. Stone mine completes.
T19: Working deer tile. Worker moves to deer. Warrior will be 9/15 EOT.
T20: Warrior at 12/15 EOT. Worker begins camp.
T21: City Grown to size 2, working deer+stone. Warrior completed EOT with 5 overflow.
T22: Start settler build.
T23:
T24: Working camp+stone. Camp complete.
T25: Worker moves to ghill 2S.
T26: Worker builds mine, cancel. Agri learned EOT.
T27: Worker moves to corn and starts farm.
T28:
T29:
T30:
T31: Settler built EOT.
T32: Settler ready to move. Worker completes corn farm.

Ronnie1 · Jan 25, 2012

You are close aj.....but off by a turn on growth/settler start.

However, you and sleepless are right in that you can get it moving T32 by switching to the unimproved deer sooner! I had just come to this scenario also. I am now looking to see if there is a way to speed up the settler going AG 1st also.

T33 seems best I can do going AG 1st.

If we are in agreement that settler ASAP is the goal, then Hunting > AG is the way to go.

adrianj · Jan 25, 2012

So the city requires 22 food to grow to size 2? Does it looks correct now? I think the result after correcting my earlier error is less production, but the warrior completes with more overflow, hence settler still complete EOT T31.

Grifftavian · Jan 25, 2012

Ronnie1 said:
VERY INTERESTING!!!!

Because of the issues I am having with the test game, I decided to check the real save also.

Meditation in the REAL GAME will found a religion ALSO!

Would we consider trying to get that also?

When I load the actual game, Meditation still says it founds Buddhism (see attached screen shot).

Was away from my computer all day, so catching up a bit. With Japan such a close neighbor, I'd favor getting at least one Settler out over growth. Lots of unworkable Mountain Peaks to the NE, but I see a school of Red Snapper down to the SE. I'd sent the Warrior down that way and see if there is another food resource nearby.

Ronnie1 · Jan 25, 2012

adrianj said:
So the city requires 22 food to grow to size 2? Does it looks correct now? I think the result after correcting my earlier error is less production, but the warrior completes with more overflow, hence settler still complete EOT T31.

Right

Grifftavian said:
When I load the actual game, Meditation still says it founds Buddhism (see attached screen shot).

Was away from my computer all day, so catching up a bit. With Japan such a close neighbor, I'd favor getting at least one Settler out over growth. Lots of unworkable Mountain Peaks to the NE, but I see a school of Red Snapper down to the SE. I'd sent the Warrior down that way and see if there is another food resource nearby.

Right on the Meditation founding a religion.

Right on seeing the fish also, but going east first to try and find Kyoto for a look see.

Grifftavian · Jan 25, 2012

Played my Test 3 game and researched Meditation first. It gave me a pop-up Window asking what I wanted to call the religion I had just founded, just like it would if Choose Religions was an option! I took Hinduism! Guess we could have gotten Hinduism ~2 turns earlier in the real game if we had known. :confused:

Made a second quick run through with the Test 3 game trying to duplicate what we had done in actual, got a Settler out from Size 2 Capitol on T35.

EDIT: Nothing the the real game's event log, or in C63's autolog.txt, to indicate another religion being founded. Maybe the AI Civs aren't as keen to research an early religion if they already have one. Or maybe they were all given Meditation. :dunno:

Grifftavian · Jan 25, 2012

adrianj said:
...

Tech Path
I quite like the Hunting -> Agri -> Masonry -> Mono line.

Having hunting enables a 6 power tile, which is pretty powerful, and since we won't have use of the whip the extra at expense of (compared to corn) is valuable I think. Including Agri early not only helps improve our excellent corn tile, but it means the worker won't run out of things to do, as it can always build farms. Even part building farms while moving elsewhere is better than wasting the spare movement....

Given R1's discovery of the Meditation Bug, should we consider squeezing in Meditation between Agriculture and Masonry? We need it out of the way if we're going to bulb Theology, and if it founds a Religion, so much the better, IMO.

adrianj · Jan 26, 2012

Re: Meditation. I think our real target for Theology is so we can control the AP. The fact we are likely first to Monotheism and get to found Judaism + Christianity is kind of a welcome bonus. The same goes for Code of Laws, it's just a great tech for us.

Meditation isn't that useful for us. For us to research it we would presumably be delaying some or all of Hunting, Agriculture or Masonry. I don't think it's worth it.

Sleepless · Jan 26, 2012

Have to agree on not going for meditation early. If one of the other AI found the religion they might convert and take some of the heat from us.

Tech path for the earlier settler seems settled with hunt - agr. After this? If we don't find anything better than the pig/gem site Ah would need to be moved up the list though I would prefer a site to the East if there are any?

Worker actions. I did the same as AJ and went from the stone - camp to the river grass hill to the corn.

Sleepless · Jan 26, 2012

Mmm wonder if any one would pick up the hinduism via meditation? Still think we were better off going via poly though as the need for masonry and opening up mono theo etc.

McArine · Jan 26, 2012

As I read adrianj's recipe for a T32 settler, we don't need to go for agri after hunting, to get the settler at T32, since the farm will be completed on the same turn as the settler. So we can delay that decision, get some more scouting done, and maybe meet more ai's, before deciding.
So if there's concensus for hunting first, for a T32 settler, we can get some turns played up till T18.

Ronnie1 · Jan 26, 2012

McArine said:
As I read adrianj's recipe for a T32 settler, we don't need to go for agri after hunting, to get the settler at T32, since the farm will be completed on the same turn as the settler. So we can delay that decision, get some more scouting done, and maybe meet more ai's, before deciding.
So if there's concensus for hunting first, for a T32 settler, we can get some turns played up till T18.

It looks like some consensus is building, I'll wait a while longer to see if anyone else has an opinion.

AG however really unlocks the BEST tile we have in Delhi, I don't see a reason to delay it unnecessarily.

Sleepless · Jan 26, 2012

Agree agriculture after hunting. Next bits need to be debated though. Alot depends on where we settle etc.

Grifftavian · Jan 26, 2012

Sleepless said:
Mmm wonder if any one would pick up the hinduism via meditation? Still think we were better off going via poly though as the need for masonry and opening up mono theo etc.

So far, nobody has founded another religion in the real game. As we'll learn Poly on the next turn, somebody would have to learn Meditation on the IBT to found a religion before us, and even if they did, there is only a 1 in 6 chance that they would pick Hinduism as their religion. So hopefully we're safe. If there is a religion founded on the IBT, I think that would imply that there was another Civ that started with Mysticism in the game, as I don't think an AI Civ could research both Myst & Meditation before we could research Poly.

Agree we don't need Meditation early, and it would be better if an AI Civ founded and adopted another religion. The point I was trying to make is that we'll need Meditation eventually if we want to use a Great Prophet to bulb Theology, as Meditation is the first tech that a GP will want to give us. Plenty of other options for a GP if we do not want to bulb Theology.

Grifftavian · Jan 26, 2012

My Test 3 game did not have the Fish to the SE, so attached is a revised Test Game that has the Fish.

Ronnie1 · Jan 26, 2012

I have played through T27.

We are 5 turns from our settler being complete.

We just discovered Agriculture and Masonry was inserted(nothing invested yet).

We have found the Japanese borders and they are indeed very close.

Our starting warrior is now a Woodsman! Our second warrior is healing from a fierce battle with a lion to the NW. He may have to withdraw if the bear near him threatens.

I also think I found our next city site to the east!

The upload log is here

Spoiler :

The autolog is here

Spoiler :

A screenie or two

I have manual saves or autosaves for every turn if anyone really wants all of them.

Ronnie1 · Jan 26, 2012

The roster order on 1/26

Conquistador63 = waiting
Ronnie1 = just played
sleepless = UP NOW
McArine = on deck
adrianj = in the hole
Grifftavian = waiting
mc-red = waiting
Ozbenno = waiting
da_Vinci = waiting

We are even on espionage with Toku now(92/92), so he must know someone else.

I also think Toku might be the one with 2 cities....

EDIT:

Actually I think he is the Buddhism founder and shrine holder, that would make sense also I guess.

Here is my test game updated to current situation.

adrianj · Jan 26, 2012

Oh yes, definitely the eastern gold! It even has a nice river to help defend againt Toku. Settler full steam ahead. My pick would be the site marked in yellow.

Not surprisingly we are Toku's worst enemy. I wonder if we should insert a military tech like BW, AH or Archery into the tech queue? If Toku feels like attacking we are pretty much defenseless. AH seems an obvious choice so city #2 can improve the sheep. If we don't turn up horses, do we then go for archery?

Toku doesn't have two cities, or we'd see it in the bottom right by his score. What makes you think Toku is Buddhism founder? I'd expect to see the little yellow star on his Buddhism icon if he was, but I'm willing to concede it might not be there what with all the other strangeness going on with Meditation/Religion.

Toku has had his second border expansion. I presume this happened on T25 (100/4=25), any earlier would imply he has some other source of culture.

SGOTM 15 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

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