SGOTM 16 - Kakumeika

[shulec]

This is the old shulec's test game "100%" same as the real game. - updated from T49 - T55.

Shulec's T55 test game from a few pages back had wrong research, and Brennus had wrong techs and too high power ratio. He wouldn't sign a cease fire.

I might have some terrain mistakes (now I think I didn't remove the 2nd copper near brennus), and the test game has 1 gold from the g hill mine plunder too much.

The rest is veeery accurate.

cheers

Thanks for fixing this. I was in a hurry and tried to get the game out asap. BTW, you can go into the city page and subtract one gold from Paris to get the total gold in the bank to match up. I did fix my test game as well.

Cease fire with Brennus T56 after Louis pillages the copper mine. Take a 10T peace treaty if Brennus doesn't want a cease fire.

I think it is unlikely, but if no barbs threaten Louis as he is pillaging the copper, we should not take a cease fire.

 

[mabraham]

I think it is unlikely, but if no barbs threaten Louis as he is pillaging the copper, we should not take a cease fire.

We expect an archer to threaten Louis the previous turn. The cease fire allows him to pillage and live, caveat barbs

 

[shulec]

We expect an archer to threaten Louis the previous turn. The cease fire allows him to pillage and live, caveat barbs

I agree, but I am just sayin...

The ppp looks good otherwise!

 

[mabraham]

The road made it possible for a single worker to do T65 Oracle with two Math chops in case slave couldn't make it home in time.

However, it looks like it might now be possible for Oracle to be completed with one pre-math chop and one post-math chop on T64. I'd say the loss of 10 base is worth getting Oracle a turn faster on normal speed.

I'd trade 10 hammers for earlier oracle, for earlier confu, horses, etc. So the suggestions here http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11915876&postcount=1029 seem good to me. We want the mines for wb, maybe GLH, chariot spam, spy... no point rushing horse access without the infrastructure to build them fast

 

[Kaitzilla]

Good heavens! We've made Walter_Wolf create like 5 or 6 PPP's

Just 4 more turns to play!


So, the last points of debate for the last few turns.

1) T64 Oracle with one non-Math chop or T65 Oracle with both Math chops?
2) Slave chop a forest in our capital or improve Orlean's river grass hills, road, get those horses online etc.. (Technically part of the next turnset but it is very close)
3) Cease Fire now T55 or move Louis to copper T55 and try to pillage T56 followed by attempting a ceasefire or continue the war if no one threatens Louis while sending worker back home with no protection
4) Keep Orleans at Size 3 to free up the garrison warrior? Would impact Math and Oracle completion time.
5) What is best move for Eve? Explore west, south, or stay to harass Brennus?


1) I prefer the T64 Oracle if it is at all possible of course. I hate missing an important wonder >_<. I'm pretty sure WastinTime wants the T65 Oracle with the 2 Math chops.
2) I'm ok with Slave improving Orleans. WastinTime fought long and hard to keep the capital forests pristine so I'll let any ideas there go.
3) I prefer to pillage Copper T56 and try for the immediate ceasefire. It will bounce Louis and the worker north hopefully onto the same tile and Louis can escort slave north. Brennus will want to improve the stone which we can no longer reach because of his 2nd city border pop, the 2nd city corn, the capital copper and hilltop we pillaged, and the 3rd city horses.
4) I'd like to see the garrison warrior stay put and Orleans grow to Size 4 so Math and Oracle isn't affected.
5) Explore western coastline towards Ramesses II is my vote. If he has marble or stone or super sweet land, it would affect our strategy. Trade routes and resource trading is nice too. Plus, maybe he has a Tokugawa on the other side of his borders.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Barb Unit Behavior

I don't know all the intricacies, but I know some of the basics about barb actions and it's useful to understand so you don't personify the barbs. (AIs are similar.)

...

But I always personify the barbs
And Monty. Always kill Monty first, the crazy nutter.

 

[mabraham]

But I always personify the barbs
And Monty. Always kill Monty first, the crazy nutter.

Monte's not a person. He's unprocessed plant food.

 

[Kaitzilla]

I hope Sun Tzu Wu is ready to click us a free tech in a few days

Can almost hear the calls for Currency since we'll have Math, so writing the post for Code of Laws on a doodle right now.

Oops, nevermind. We have Alphabet so Currency was always a possibility. Mmmm 40% bonus with 2 prereqs

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Is it Oracle spin the bottle time yet?

Metal Casting, Code of Laws, Currency, ...

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Walter_Wolf]

The road made it possible for a single worker to do T65 Oracle with two Math chops in case slave couldn't make it home in time.

However, it looks like it might now be possible for Oracle to be completed with one pre-math chop and one post-math chop on T64. I'd say the loss of 10 base is worth getting Oracle a turn faster on normal speed.

I agree

EDIT: I've been staring at the spreadsheet for some time now, and it seems we loose 4 turns on a hamlet if we want the T64 oracle with one pre and one post math chops.
That's 12 commerce. Might make a difference for research.

 

[Walter_Wolf]

Actually, it's just 2 cottage (hamlet) turns less = 6 commerce.

2 math chops, T65 Oracle

				
	    Working			Eiffel
T55	Hmlt, Cott, Shp			road
T56	Hmlt, Cott, Shp			chop
T57	Hmlt, Cott, Shp			chop
T58	Hmlt, Cott, Shp			road sheep
T59	2Hmlt,Shp, PHF			road                  (hamlet grows)
T60	2Hmlt,Shp, PHF			to 1W of Orl
T61	Hmlt, Shp, 2PHF			chop
T62	Hmlt, Shp, 2PHF			chop
T63	Hmlt, Shp, 2PHF			chop
T64	Hmlt, Shp, 2PHF			chop 1N of Orleans


1 math, 1 pre math chop, T64 Oracle

					
	   Working		        Eiffel	
T55	Hmlt, Cott, Shp			road	
T56	Hmlt, Cott, Shp			chop	
T57	Hmlt, Cott, Shp			chop	
T58	Hmlt, Cott, PHF			chop	
T59	Hmlt, Shp, 2PHF			road shp or 1T mine       -1 hmlt
T60	Hmlt, Shp, 2PHF			to 1W of Orl	          -1 hmlt
T61	Hmlt, Shp, 2PHF			chop	
T62	Hmlt, Shp, 2PHF			chop	
T63	Hmlt, Shp, 2PHF			chop

I don't have the game to test, but I hope it's accurate.
Will add the desired option to PPP.

I vote for T64 Oracle.

I would play it till T59, let the team decide later and pass the turnset, but the difference is the T58 worked tiles.

Review please

 

[LowtherCastle]

Hmmm...LowtherCastle is trying to pull the rug out from under me in my last stand for helping my team...
.
.
.
.
.
.

As if...

Thanks for the link, Tachy. Since roads are also pillagable, that means we can also build our road network strategically to align with our fogbusting, so barbs won't follow the crumbs into our cities. I think I'll edit my above post to that effect.

===

Here's a new rug for you, Tachy, if you've regained your strength: What will cause Brennus to build more combat units, repeated DoWs every few turns, or just one continuous war, and/or it depends on something else?

 

[Walter_Wolf]

PPP looks good. Add note that Paris might build research, and that this might take more than one turn in some worst case scenario.

I hope that will happen in the next turnset.

After the cease fire, is there a case for eve to stake out that stone again for a future slave? I'd expect a barb city to cut coastal trade routes with Rameses soon after we get them, if ever.

If there is an another AI in the western direction, I think we better meet it ASAP. Or you think we would have met them by now?
That peninsula S/SW of the pigs wine location calls for barb cities spawning for sure.

So, the last points of debate for the last few turns.

1) T64 Oracle with one non-Math chop or T65 Oracle with both Math chops?
2) Slave chop a forest in our capital or improve Orlean's river grass hills, road, get those horses online etc.. (Technically part of the next turnset but it is very close)
3) Cease Fire now T55 or move Louis to copper T55 and try to pillage T56 followed by attempting a ceasefire or continue the war if no one threatens Louis while sending worker back home with no protection
4) Keep Orleans at Size 3 to free up the garrison warrior? Would impact Math and Oracle completion time.
5) What is best move for Eve? Explore west, south, or stay to harass Brennus?

1) I say T64 Oracle. I hope it can be done. A lot depends on the plunder reward. I hope math is possible in this scenario, see my post with micro a few posts back (I hope it's accurate).
2) After the G scientist birth, Paris will have to work on the settler untill T72 after switching the specialists back to wheat/cottage. With a math chop, the Settler might be out T69.
3) I prefer ceasing fire to prevent Brennus spamming units. We don't have any strong units to harass/choke him anyway (archers?).
4) If we believe LowtherCastle's findings from the code, there is no need to free up the Orleans garrison. size 3 oracle is doable, but without math I'm affraid.
5) I'd go west, and hope to find another AI.

 

[bcool]

So, the last points of debate for the last few turns.

1) T64 Oracle with one non-Math chop or T65 Oracle with both Math chops?
2) Slave chop a forest in our capital or improve Orlean's river grass hills, road, get those horses online etc.. (Technically part of the next turnset but it is very close)
3) Cease Fire now T55 or move Louis to copper T55 and try to pillage T56 followed by attempting a ceasefire or continue the war if no one threatens Louis while sending worker back home with no protection
4) Keep Orleans at Size 3 to free up the garrison warrior? Would impact Math and Oracle completion time.
5) What is best move for Eve? Explore west, south, or stay to harass Brennus?

1) T64 oracle for me too, I still remember losing the GLH by 1 turn in the previous sgotm
2) I think a chop in the capital BFC by the slave is a good call (it can regrow!) We have a lot we want to build and a chop could give us a spy or an earlier settler.
3) Move louis to T55, T56 pillage, and T56 ceasefire. I see no advantage to continuing the war even if the ceasefire isn't needed to save Louis. If we ceasefire we have a good chance to continue worker stealing from Brennus.
4) No need to move the Orleans warrior since LC suggest archer is not a threat
5) I think Eve should harass Brennus for a few more turns. I think it would be good to nab another worker or set up for a double worker steal perhaps on the stone and copper/hill we pillaged.

 

[shulec]

Good heavens! We've made Walter_Wolf create like 5 or 6 PPP's

Just 4 more turns to play!


So, the last points of debate for the last few turns.

1) T64 Oracle with one non-Math chop or T65 Oracle with both Math chops?
2) Slave chop a forest in our capital or improve Orlean's river grass hills, road, get those horses online etc.. (Technically part of the next turnset but it is very close)
3) Cease Fire now T55 or move Louis to copper T55 and try to pillage T56 followed by attempting a ceasefire or continue the war if no one threatens Louis while sending worker back home with no protection
4) Keep Orleans at Size 3 to free up the garrison warrior? Would impact Math and Oracle completion time.
5) What is best move for Eve? Explore west, south, or stay to harass Brennus?


1) I prefer the T64 Oracle if it is at all possible of course. I hate missing an important wonder >_<. I'm pretty sure WastinTime wants the T65 Oracle with the 2 Math chops.
2) I'm ok with Slave improving Orleans. WastinTime fought long and hard to keep the capital forests pristine so I'll let any ideas there go.
3) I prefer to pillage Copper T56 and try for the immediate ceasefire. It will bounce Louis and the worker north hopefully onto the same tile and Louis can escort slave north. Brennus will want to improve the stone which we can no longer reach because of his 2nd city border pop, the 2nd city corn, the capital copper and hilltop we pillaged, and the 3rd city horses.
4) I'd like to see the garrison warrior stay put and Orleans grow to Size 4 so Math and Oracle isn't affected.
5) Explore western coastline towards Ramesses II is my vote. If he has marble or stone or super sweet land, it would affect our strategy. Trade routes and resource trading is nice too. Plus, maybe he has a Tokugawa on the other side of his borders.

1. Oracle ASAP.
2. Delay further chops until Math
3. Cease fire or peace only if needed. If we declare war on Brennus again, we will be at -6 diplo. We are very far away from killing him off. If we end up with a Buddist continent, he will become a trade partner again if we haven't declared on him more than once.
4. Orleans Pop 4. Garrison
5. Explore. Eve has no access to worker steal sites for a long time. There no good sites in Brennus's southwest borders where workers will show up.

 

[bcool]

Okay, I see now, eve should scout SW.

I think we have a good chance at a 2nd worker steal still and I think a -6 diplo with Brennus is fine.
We have to eliminate an AI as one of the victory conditions. I would rather continue to worker steal from him until we eventually kill him. So I expect many many more war declarations.

I say we do our best to write him off. I think we are going for founding confu ourselves so the odds of us getting and using buddhism is low.

 

[Walter_Wolf]

Okay, I tested the T64 oracle micro, and succeded. I got 10 pillage gold, and have been running 100% slider up to T62 and 90% T62. I got math T63.

Spoiler :

This is the micro I used.

1 math, 1 pre math chop, T64 Oracle

					
	   Working		        Eiffel	
T55	Hmlt, Cott, Shp			road	
T56	Hmlt, Cott, Shp			chop	
T57	Hmlt, Cott, Shp			chop	
T58	Hmlt, Cott, PHF			chop	
T59	Hmlt, Shp, 2PHF			road shp or 1T mine       -1 hmlt
T60	Hmlt, Shp, 2PHF			to 1W of Orl	          -1 hmlt
T61	Hmlt, Shp, 2PHF			chop	
T62	Hmlt, Shp, 2PHF			chop	
T63	Hmlt, Shp, 2PHF			chop

EDIT: Ah, and I found a mistake in the test game. When worldbuildering adam back, after removing him after a barb fight, I gave him both 4XP and the woodsman promo

 

[WastinTime]

Did we even check if we could have gotten Ramesses to DoW Brennus too?

 

[WastinTime]

Not going to argue the PPP. Looks good. (btw, We have 5 weeks to play 4 1/2 turnsets) Maybe things will flow once we have the critical things like Oracle out of the way.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Did we even check if we could have gotten Ramesses to DoW Brennus too?

We have to get Ramesses II to pleased before we can bribe him to war against Brennus.