SGOTM 19 - Also Sprach Sid

[AlanH]

Welcome to your BtS SGOTM 19 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the
Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

You can find the Game Details in the first post of the Maintenance Thread. If any changes occur in the game settings or rules, I shall post them in that thread, and edit that post.

Please wait until your team leader/administrator/scribe has reserved a couple of top posts in this thread for game admin information. Then post here to let your team know you have arrived.

Good luck with the game.

 

[pomthom]

Welcome to Also Sprach Sid's thread for SGOTM-19!

~~ Meet the plastic duck-ASS... ~~​

-----------------------------

Link to Succession GOTM Progress and Results


Link to SGOTM-19 Pregame Discussion Thread

Link to SGOTM-19 Maintenance Thread

-----------------------------

• Also Sprach Sid SGOTM-19 summary
• Useful links
• Team rules
• Set methodoogy

Best quotes so far:

sorrrry.

I just spent 3 hours testing. Rice Pudding now contributes –1 +3 compared to my original micro.

Spoiler :

3 hours. I hate my life.

I will promote our Axe to Combat I before attacking the moron barb. Unpromoted, we only have 94% odds... so no doubt an instant :suicide:

The battle of Constantinople quotes:

Spoiler :

OK 2 first battles are over. Not gonna lie, it went kossinly

I can breathe again.

Great work, now I would not approve such a risky plan next time. My brain says all right, but my heart can't take it again.

I didn't have a moment of doubt.

It's good to see I've had some impact over these SGOTMs. As bad as it may be

Took me a while to find this RNG note, but I remember it making me laugh :

Spoiler :

F*** this.
Sh** luck.

Shoot me.

I need clear preference for this. Seems Doshin like it, kissin on the other side.

WTH??

With a post #1854 vs. post #4512 discovery, our collective ineptitude is less than half that of the previous game.

The Wife Anger Level quotes

Spoiler :

I can't take it for now because my wife is not in good mood for my playing.

Wife Anger level 1

I can look at the save at 2:00 PM EST, if you can wait until then.

Wife Anger level is...?

Under control ATM

Played the turn partially, I want to avoid too many mistakes and before WAL goes over 9000

@soundjata
Want to get started on your turn? Or is WAL too high?

WAL = 0. She's missing

if soundjata is around and can upload the save... fear the WAL!

-----------------------------


And the thread spammers!

 

[pomthom]

Grand Strategy (last update T75 )

Spoiler :

Grand Strategy update

More or less chronologically...

1. Conquer Tokugawa via Construction war.
2. Continue prioritizing exploration, study map trades possibilities.
3. Get Education and Oxford as early as possible.
4. Choose which Corp to aim for (plan to produce the relevant GP...).
5. Tech MT/Gunpowder for a Cuirassier corporation-resource-oriented stomp.
6. Prioritize Democracy after MT.
7. Complete Hidden Objective.
8. Claim all corporation resources (without winning by Conquest or Domination before completing all other objectives).
9. Research Corp tech and found HQ.
10. Win.

Ideally, the last 4 objectives are met on the same turn


------------------------------------


RE: "Paper" exploration

Leader Will Trade Map
Alexander Friendly
Huyana Capac Pleased
Kublai Khan Pleased
Napoleon Friendly
Tokugawa Neva'

The least difficult we can get a map from peacefully are Kublai OR Huyana if we convert to their religion (during a GA for example). Otherwise it will have to be through extortion or jumping through small diplo hoops. Any other idea?


------------------------------------


Choice of Corporation

AFAIC, only 2 Corporation can be really considered: Sid's Sushi Co or Aluminium Co.

Why I am "eliminating" the other Corporations (this can be discussed of course):

Spoiler :

Why nots

Cereal Mills: the Rice is redundant with Sushi for a more expensive and unnecessary tech path, Corn + Wheat + Rice might be tedious to collect
Civilized Jewelers Inc: unreliable mining resources but probably very few resources to claim, a tad expensive beaker-wise compared to that risk, the tech path doesn't do much for us except if we decide to go for UN win


Mos' def' nots

Creative Constructions: requires a rare GP, too expensive beaker-wise (requires Industrialism not too late to reveal Aluminium + Combustion for Corp HQ), has a lot of mining resources
Standard Ethanol: Plastics? Yeah, OK.
Mining Inc: requires a rare GP, has a lot of different mining resources, not to mention Coal which is redundant with Aluminium Co

Pros and Cons for both

Choice #1, Sid's Sushi:
Least expensive beaker-wise
Should be a reasonable amount of resources to claim but not necessarily​

Choice #2, Aluminium Co:
Has only 1 resource type to claim
Requires to prioritize Steam Power to reveal Coal without delaying the mounted warfare breakout
Expensive beaker-wise but mostly useful techs (including Steam Power that unlocks Dikes which will give a bit of return on Lakes map)
Requires the easiest GP to produce for HQ​

Unfortunately, a lot might depend on what the map reveals. Teleporting in the Barb corner city should be tested.


---------------------------


Choice of Victory Condition

Conquest, Domination or Diplomatic (UN/AP).

It's probably too early to decide that, but Conquest/Dom seems symbiotic with the Corporation objective.

Reference Posts (last update 07/05/2014)

Spoiler :

kossin's tech estimates
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13156648&postcount=1170
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13159080&postcount=1211
@T137 http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13189275&postcount=1649
@T143 http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13197676&postcount=1831
@T144 http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13200490&postcount=1879
@T146 http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13202219&postcount=1949


Doshin's GP plans
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13162473&postcount=1265
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13178958&postcount=1483
@T136 v1 http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13185280&postcount=1607
@T136 v2 http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13186576&postcount=1616
@T136 v3 http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13187226&postcount=1627
@T136 v4 http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13187994&postcount=1634


Razing
@T143 http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=13196608#post13196608
@T143 http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13198981&postcount=1851

Spread plans
@T143 http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13197799&postcount=1834
@T143 http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13199162&postcount=1853
@T145 http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13201357&postcount=1910
@T151 http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13206462&postcount=2084
@T151 http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13206503&postcount=2088
@T151 http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13209004&postcount=2134

Alu Corp
@T143 http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13199201&postcount=1854

Turnsets (last update 07/05/2014)

Spoiler :

Turns 0 - 5: [Duckweed] Opening until we need to choose tech, we meet a close neighbour Asoka
Turns 6 - 10: [Duckweed] Choose Alpha, whip Granary then stop because Oracle went T9
Turns 11 - 17: [Duckweed] Steal Worker from Asoka , 2-pop whip our first cheap Settler
Turns 18 - 32: [pomthom] Settled cities 2 (non-riverside Sugar) & 3 (1N of Gold), got W2 Axe, Apha was delayed by 1 turn because of wandering Bear
Turns 33 - 37: [Doshin] Preperation for settling City 4 and another Worker steal
Turns 38 - 42: [Doshin] Settled City 4
Turns 43 - 47: [Folket] To currency + 4 Worker steals
Turns 48 - 62: [Doshin] Exploration (we meet Nappy and KK) + buid-up of Axe stack for Asoka
Turn 62: [pomthom] The epic battle of Constantinople
Turns 62 - 65: [Duckweed] Continue from Doshin who had to hand over his computer to the computer nurse
Turns 66 - 70: [Doshin] Resume to wrap up war, meet Alex
Turns 71 - 75: [Doshin] Meet HC, pursue to CoL while building TGL and NE
Turns 76 - 83: [pomthom] Infra build-up while pushing our settlers barely under the limits of over-expansion
Turns 84 - 88: [Doshin] Continue expansion / infra build up
Turns 89 - 105: [Duckweed] Preparing HA war VS Toku while building MoM and HG (+part 2)
Turns 106 - 119: [Duckweed] Toku War, successful late attempt at Mids
Turns 120 - 135: [pomthom] Reach MT while emphasizing GPP, reDoW Toku, whip/chop Cuirs like there's no tomorrow, DoW KK + capture 5 cities including Madrid
Turns 136 - 142: [Doshin] Conclude war + cease fire KK, finish off Toku, DoW HC and reach Democracy (+part 2)
Turns 143 - 146: [soundjata] Conclude HC War (+part 2)
Turns 147 - end: [soundjata&kossin] Nappy and Alex wars, Corp founding and spread, fogbust and extermination of the entire map

-----------------------------

Test games (last update 07/05/2014)

Spoiler :

Pre-game

• pomthom's v0 test game (without knowledge of T0 demographics and other in-game info)

Opening

• Duckweed's checked end of set test game (T17 - 3320 BC)
• pomthom's quick end of set test game (T32 - 2720 BC)
• Doshin's end of set test game (T42 - 2320 BC)
• T62 - 1520 BC (battle of Const)
• T65 - 1400 BC
• T70 - 1200 BC
• T76 - 975 BC
• T83 - 800 BC
• T88 - 675 BC
• T93 - 475 BC
• T106 - 225 BC

 

[pomthom]

Making BUFFY work

Spoiler :

• Install latest BUFFY mod
• Once this is done, try loading this game from SGOTM-16
  
  : you are successful. Well you're lucky and ready to go - just make sure your autosave is set to every turn (see below)
  : you are unsuccessful. You're not the first and won't be the last . Keep reading:​
  Spoiler FIXING BUFFY :

  If you are a Vista/Win7/Win8 user, first visit this page.
  
  But most troubleshooting issues with the BUFFY mod are addressed in this thread. If you don't find an answer there I suggest you post your symptoms there directly.

Setting your autosave to 1 turn

Spoiler :

Go edit your My Games>BTS>Civilization4.ini file, and make the following changes:

; The maximum number of autosaves kept in the directory before being deleted.
MaxAutoSaves = 50 Or whatever number you'd like here, just make sure it's larger than the number of turns of your set.

; Specify the number of turns between autoSaves. 0 means no autosave.
AutoSaveInterval = 1

Various game mechanics

Spoiler :

Courtesy of OSS

Paused games

Spoiler :

It is advised to Pause the real game (by pressing the Pause button next to Scroll Lock key) when you intend to simply look for info or take screenshots.

Please read this beforehand.

 

[pomthom]

Summarized Team Rules

• Read the various Rule threads (in particular: SGOTM ref thread ; banned exploits)
• Check your .ini files so that autosave is set to every turn.
• No reloads from previous point, ever!
• No reading of other team threads. The best way to resist temptation is to use the Subscribed threads tool under quick links! Similarily, do not download other team saves.
• When looking at the save, do not perform any irreversible action! You can't trade, whip or move units.
• If the game crashes, stop and PM AlanH + kcd_swede with details of what happened. Wait for instructions.

Strongly suggested:

• Please do what you can to inform the team of your unavailabilities in advance
• Save often manually
• Stop your action and enquire here if an opportunity becomes available or something goes wrong.
• Pause the game before uploading/examining it.
• When testing the game, make sure you're using the test game! Markers will be added here and there to help.
• Turn on the auto-logging, this should make turn-by-turn details reporting of your turnset easier.

A few notes of etiquette:

Spoiler :

1. Active participation -- Your contribution to every set is important, even if it's a 'I agree'. Although everyone might have real life issues sometimes, it's courteous to notify the team of you absence.

2. Plan of playing -- The spirit of SG is to play the game following the consensus of the team decision. Therefore the player who is UP should post a clear plan for discussion. Guidelines have been posted for the contents of your plan in the next post. It might be that the team decides to head in a direction you were opposed to, it does not mean you are wrong but rather that the team believes the odds of winning are more likely with the decided approach.

3. Timing -- In the pre-thread we agreed to use the following as upper bounds for discussing, planning and playing the set. Since the game cannot last forever, it is important to respect these in order not to be rushed to finish the game later on.
-24 hours for 'got it' and pre-play-plan [0~24] - Make sure you can open the save before saying 'got it'.
-24 hours for discussion and first plan draft[0~48]
-24 hours for edits [24~72]
-24 hours to play [72~96]

Please keep in mind those are upper bounds, meaning if a consensus is reached before the time is fully elapsed, the set can proceed ahead.
Once again it would be greatly appreciated if you can warn the team, either in this thread or via pm, of your absences so that we do not have to wait for a consensus or skipping. You will be skipped if you cannot meet the time frame.

3a. Please include a report when you submit the save. You may submit your report later but it would be preferable to have it before the discussion on the next set starts.

4. Do not automate workers without first discussing with your team.

5. Do not use city governors without first discussing with your team. Or at least if you do, check cities every turn and remove the governor at the end of your round.

6. Do not leave units on goto orders that extend beyond your set of turns. If for some reason this happens, then be sure to inform your team as to what the unit(s) is/are going.

7. Finish all your discussed turns and upload the game saved at the END of the discussed part.

8. Respect your team mates, and demand their respect. Take care of your writing style, accept that people whose first language is not English will use English in a different way than you are used to. Disagree by all means, but don't make it personal, and don't take it personally.

9. SG's are team games. Be a good team member. Post your ideas, argue your corner and encourage and praise your team mates. Don't be afraid to post in your game thread. That is what it's for.

10. Have fun yo

 

[pomthom]

How a set will be played

There are 7 major parts to every set:

1. Pre-Play-Plan: see below.
2. Voting: everyone voices his opinion on the issues raised in 1.
3. Plan: see below.
4. Critique of the Plan: once the Plan is posted, players should try/read the plan and look for anything they'd like to change. This is where you must support your arguments!
5. Final Plan: tries to glue everything together.
6. Play the Set: see below.
7. Post the Report: see below

What is the Pre-Play-Plan?

The Pre-Play-Plan is to initiate the discussion on the diverging possibilities at the start of a set. This includes, but not limited to, EP focus, general city micro, general worker micro, general techs. Basically, make an idea of what you want to do with your 10/15 turns.

In the spoiler below are general ideas as to what you can cover with the pre-play-plan. Not everything needs to be discussed, only the obvious decision points.

Spoiler :

1. Technologies

• What techs are you aiming for? (One, a beeline ex. Literature, part-research for trading)
• What trades will you attempt with who and when? (When to sell for gold ex. first opportunity or wait for more, specify the leader(s), waiting for a wonder to finish so the AI get failure gold)
• Are we planning a Great Person bulb?

2. Dealing with AIs

• Resource trade negotiations
• Espionage assignment
• Open borders (cancel or allow)
• AI demands (resources, cancel trades, who do we send packing or not, technologies, war, religions, civics)

3. City placement - mostly in the beginning

• Where are you planning on sending a settler?
• Are you sending a worker along?
• Is the land fogbusted/do we have an escort?
• Initial city builds (Monument/Granary etc...)
• Tile improvements around this city(food, hammers, commerce)

4. General micro

• Special tile assignations (starve city for specialists, switch to growth etc.)
• Tile swapping with other cities
• Whips
• Build order (infrastructure/military/settlers/workers/wealth/science)
• Dealing with happy/health caps
• Worker improvements and moves

5. Civics and Religion

• Are you planning on civic switches/do we need to acquire the techs? (Caste for border pops, slavery for prod...)
• Are we expecting a religion change?

6.War - if applicable

• Refuse/accept AI war demands
• Bribing civs to declare war or for stopping war
• War plan (who, how many units and how to acquire them , which cities to strike, scouting prior to DoW,...)

7. Bigger picture

• Gifts (city, gold, techs,...)
• What AI do we try to please
• Goals for the future
• Diplo manipulation
• Extras

What your plan should cover:

The plan must contain 2 detailed parts:

1. What you will check for every turn (EP, trades available, GPT available etc.) [this is easy]
2. Turn-by-turn worker moves, city micromanagement, unit movement and or general guidelines as to what we can't control via test game. [this is the hard part]
​

The team might at one point decide to slack on #2 once the game becomes well in hand.



How your set should go:

• Play according to the plan
• If something unexpected (or an opportunity) comes up, STOP AND CHECK WITH THE TEAM.
• If you have to adapt, do so!
• You can add markers in game during and at the end of your set. It's a lot easier on team members to figure where units are going.
• If something unexpected comes up, you can (and possibly should) stop and make a short report to the team so we can decide how to move ahead

What your set report should cover:

• WHEOOHRN alerts and possible/likely targets
• GGs in distant lands and Great Engineers
• When to renegotiate trades
• What you were planning for the future
• How the plan worked out/didn't
• Anything unexpected

Another option is to turn on the auto-logging and upload the autolog file.

 

[pomthom]

Welcome Also Sprach Sids (and lurkers)!

Let's take some laurels home, you may post away

 

[Folket]

Great.


As for grand strategy. I firmly believe the faster way to victory will be AP diplomatic victory. It is easily manipulated and we can get it at any time of our choosing.

We also need a corporation. I suggest Sid Sushi since lakes seem to have very little seafood. We also see all resources needed very early in the game. It is not to bad on tech requirement.

We should consider building Great prophet wonders to bulb theology for the AP or we could just capture it. Just that it is easier to manipulate if you get the found the religion yourself. Marble is available for an ToA. It will give us an very early chance for a 60% great prophet.

In the test game that AI was very late with alphabet. Could be an early priority.

 

[kossin]

Sid's Sushi also uses Rice, mapmaker can easily put 27 Rice resources all over the place. We'll have to scout early to determine how deep we need to tech. That being said, non-mining resources are a good idea as we don't have to worry about resources popping.

The mystery requirement doesn't seem to be diplo-related because when asked, Swede said we couldn't screw ourselves out of completing the objective before learning Democracy. With the city liberation limit, it's quite possible to be quite in the red for diplo relations and unable to crawl out of there.

BTW, I can be wrong on this but grabbing all Corp resources means we have to conquer most of the map. The AI doesn't trade unique resources, so as long as an AI has access to one of the resources, we have to capture relevant cities. So Diplo can really only happen if a few AIs don't have access to our target corp.

 

[Folket]

Yes, I seem to have considered that obvious. It is still only one resource that may or may not be plenty. We will now relatively early if sid sushi is going to be a bad idea.

 

[Doshin]

I haven't considered the mystery requirement at all, but I'm not sure that the AP will be at all necessary, given the likelihood that we will attack most AIs to secure the world's Rice or Coal and it's not that difficult to tip ourselves over the land limit to win Conquest.

Our tech start and free Worker opens up a lot of options with early WWs. I assume that the Oracle is the strongest of the group.

Darius is Charismatic and Imperialistic. REXerific.

 

[Folket]

I haven't considered the mystery requirement at all, but I'm not sure that the AP will be at all necessary, given the likelihood that we will attack most AIs to secure the world's Rice or Coal and it's not that difficult to tip ourselves over the land limit to win Conquest.

Our tech start and free Worker opens up a lot of options with early WWs. I assume that the Oracle is the strongest of the group.

Darius is Charismatic and Imperialistic. REXerific.

I think we should plan for as fast win as possible and then adapt once we know the last requirement. Maybe we need to attack everyone.

Getting -3 from declaring war can easy be counteracted by +4 fair trade and +1 liberated city. If all the AIs love each other I think domination or conquest are the best options.

Oracle is good but three techs away and the AI start with it. Seems like a too big risk. I guess with more test games we can determine the likelihood of the AI building it. But then I think the AI in the game are buffed somehow or else it will be a cakewalk.

 

[kossin]

Getting -3 from declaring war can easy be counteracted by +4 fair trade and +1 liberated city. If all the AIs love each other I think domination or conquest are the best options.

My thoughts about mystery:

It's quite possible to DoW AI, capture city, peace, rinse and repeat several times before Democracy. Thus, a team can legally have -12 diplo to each AI before Democracy and UN/AP would be impossible to achieve... so unless kcd didn't answer truthfully, mystery is not diplo-related.

~~

Sadly, this is another military game due to corporation objective.

 

[Folket]

Yes, unless we find an AI that does not like anyone and is not sitting on rice.

 

[Duckweed]

Time to propose my 1st ASS strategy.

Victory: Military. As kossin pointed out, the only and most reliable way to collect monopoly resources from AI is sending our city raiders.

War machines: This is very likely the right stage for mounted units, or more precisely, Cuirassiers. Immortal AIs with aggressive AI setting are quite tough to conquer. Moreover, we need to maintain research ability to corporation techs, so Engineering rush would no longer be the golden way this time.

Wonders: As most of you already said, Oracle. TGL would be another must-have wonder as we still need quite a few GSs to bulb to corporation techs during the conquering period. OU will be needed and prioritized.

Opening:

With the copper in BFC, it would be a pity if we don't farm some workers and control our neighbors development from beginning. 2 woodman II axes would do the complete work.

Mystery: My guess is that it is likely to be something related to Democracy. such as 2 universal civics for all AIs, or SoL.

 

[Doshin]

^^^^^ I agree with this.

Re. the mystery: the only other possibilities that occur to me at this moment are thematic, e.g. we need to build a Jail or Bank in every city, both of which would rule out a last minute war.

Remember that there is a handicap on stealing Workers this time around (suggested by yours truly ):

3) You may not offer nor accept peace or cease fire in any war declared by you until an enemy city is captured or one of your cities is lost by capture, or the war is ended by UN/AP resolution.

I'm also doubtful that Mansa will feature this time around. I think it's likely we'll see some interesting leader/civ mixes.

----

Without testing, I like the look of the current SIP spot. The only alternative that strikes me is 2S, which will provide stronger growth and early production, but with the loss of 4 potential Cottage tiles (3 if you'd rather Farm and then build a Plantation on the Sugar).

Two questions:

1. Does anyone know what stops the AI from building wonders in the very early game? Do they need 2 cities?
   
2. I assume Rocketry is more expensive than Medicine in terms of . Does anyone know by how much?

I could work out #2 on my own, but am being lazy. Don't answer if you don't have the info readily to hand.

 

[Folket]

^^^^^ I agree with this.

Re. the mystery: the only other possibilities that occur to me at this moment are thematic, e.g. we need to build a Jail or Bank in every city, both of which would rule out a last minute war.

Remember that there is a handicap on stealing Workers this time around (suggested by yours truly ):


I'm also doubtful that Mansa will feature this time around. I think it's likely we'll see some interesting leader/civ mixes.

----

Without testing, I like the look of the current SIP spot. The only alternative that strikes me is 2S, which will provide stronger growth and early production, but with the loss of 4 potential Cottage tiles (3 if you'd rather Farm and then build a Plantation on the Sugar).

Two questions:

1. Does anyone know what stops the AI from building wonders in the very early game? Do they need 2 cities?
   
2. I assume Rocketry is more expensive than Medicine in terms of . Does anyone know by how much?

I could work out #2 on my own, but am being lazy. Don't answer if you don't have the info readily to hand.

Why are you interested in rocketry and medicine? the difference in beakers is huge.

I'm uncertain about worker stealing. We will be locked into a war for a long time and chances are very good all AI will join into the war.

 

[Doshin]

Because there are obviously two corporations that are viable for victory, and, although it is quicker to research Medicine than Rocketry, I did/do not know by how much.

 

[kossin]

My spreadsheet has Medicine as 4,500b and Rocketry as 5,000b on Immortal, Normal, Standard size.

This game could play similarly to SGOTM12, where the AI teched slowly but fielded very large SoDs. It was on Emperor - mounted units might have a hard time unless we can get there very fast.

Spoiler :

HAs will not be very effective because all cities will be packed with more units. If Longbows are slow, then Cuirassiers reign supreme of course

 

[Folket]

I think he also want us to consider all techs leading up to rocketry and medicine.

I think we need to keep a close look at demographics during the first turns. It might tell us how they have buffed the AI.

To me I would not be surprised if we can start warring with knights.