[BTS] SGOTM 25 - Home Slices

[LowtherCastle]

More perspective, OR+forge pop whip OFs into wonders without the wonder multipliers (stone, marble...) give roughly a 2.4 hammer ratio.
With the wonder multiplier, the ratio jumps to 3.9!?!?!?!?!?

With only the wonder ultiplier, but no OR or forge, it's still ~3.1.

We need the Kremlin asap.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Without Tao religion, we will need to bring Archer back to garrison Gau soon.

I'll try to justify improving fish for a silly amount of food.
From memory since I can't access test save:

By 2pop whipping a Galley and taking it off queue, it is possible for a 2nd 2pop Sword whip to produce Galley/Sword/Sword in 3 turns.

Produce the Galley at Size 3.
Whip 1 hammer Sword at Size 4.
If we improved fish with chop, we might grow back to size 4 producing 2 swords.

Gift Churchill size 4 Gau, take it back with Sword off galley, move bomber in.

Next turn, load up bother swords, bomb down Hong Kong defenses.
Next turn, 1 pop whip Chariot shrinking Gau to Size 3., Bomb Hong Kong LB, unload 2 swords on gems, load up worker.
Next turn, bombLB, Easily conquer Hong Kong, unload worker on gems.
Next turn, 1pop whip Chariot shrinking Gau to Size 3, load up 2 swords to sail to France and get a turn of healing, rebase bomber to Hong Kong.
Next turn, give Size 4 Gau to France, DOW, retake back with chariot, keep sailing swords, bomb France, chop 2 Warriors.
Next turn, Hong Kong gets fish, Gau whips something, bombing from Hong Kong continues, try to take France with 2 swords and 2 chariots...
Maybe main cities can send down another Chariot to help.

Kind of a slow moving wrecking ball followed by manly chariots.

I know I'm the only one who likes Hong Kong 1st.
I covet those gems greatly, and Hong Kong working improved fish makes me happy.

Would be nice if the swords could sail back for Tokyo, but they will probabaly die attacking 2 cities.
Need the Galley to get the Hong Kong worker back after it finishes gems too.

Bomber timing for that nice Japanese city?
No idea.

I can only spout ideas and unfairly ask others to test.

You guys are really, really good at early war, so I'll support what you decide.


**Edit**
Uhh, can't chop 2 warriors and improve gems at same time.
Hmmm
Chop 2nd Worker instead of fish boat?
Meh

 

[LowtherCastle]

Great ideas, Kait! Keep it up. Testing's the easy part. Thx for the support on manly chariots. I've never played with bother swords but they sound great! Can't wait to try.

 

[LowtherCastle]

How important will happies be? How soon do we need Calendar?

 

[LowtherCastle]

Note that I updated the Kremlin explained post with the divisors for wonders.

 

[WastinTime]

load up 2 swords to sail to France and get a turn of healing,

you can't heal the same turn you load onto a boat

 

[Kaitzilla]

you can't heal the same turn you load onto a boat

Right, I meant they should ultimately get 1 turn of healing on the total trip to France.
Should be 10%

 

[WastinTime]

Right, I meant they should ultimately get 1 turn of healing on the total trip to France.
Should be 10%

Ah, of course. I thought you had the swords doing something the following turn. I missed the 'keep sailing'. And not looking at the save, I didn't think about how long the trip is.

 

[LowtherCastle]

My hunch is that our Critical Path is going to be Domination. If so, our priorities would probably be:

Ongoing: Find out if Domination is possible without Astro.
1. Granary - The Kremlin in Beijing asap, whatever it takes.
2. Capture workers galore, maybe even Roosy's.
3. Capture nearby cities asap and turn into settler pumps.
4. REX ~40+ cities.

Research, warring, espy-culture, wonders, and all that would happen alongside the above.

So, I would use Gua and if needed Yanan for all our nearby warring, allowing Beijing to focus on completing The Kremiln asap. Also, I would hold off on our research slider until we know whether or not we need Astro.

 

[LowtherCastle]

For war planning, consider that we'll probably be able to capture a Stalin worker around t20 (I forget exactly). It would make sense to capture Mongolia at the same time if possible.

 

[babybluepants]

LC,
I'll have some time to test tomorrow morning. Should we divide up testing tasks somehow?

I did some rough calcs on Kremlin today. What turn are you aiming for?

For war planning, consider that we'll probably be able to capture a Stalin worker around t20 (I forget exactly). It would make sense to capture Mongolia at the same time if possible.

I don't think we can capture Mongolia on the same timeline.

 

[Kaitzilla]

My hunch is that our Critical Path is going to be Domination. If so, our priorities would probably be:

Ongoing: Find out if Domination is possible without Astro.
1. Granary - The Kremlin in Beijing asap, whatever it takes.
2. Capture workers galore, maybe even Roosy's.
3. Capture nearby cities asap and turn into settler pumps.
4. REX ~40+ cities.

Research, warring, espy-culture, wonders, and all that would happen alongside the above.

So, I would use Gua and if needed Yanan for all our nearby warring, allowing Beijing to focus on completing The Kremiln asap. Also, I would hold off on our research slider until we know whether or not we need Astro.

I agree with most of these points, but I would produce Chariots to grab workers and Swords in Beijing first until Mongolia and Toku's cities are in great danger.

We need Toku's Fur!

Afterwards we can build Kremlin.
Waiting 25 turns doing Kremlin as fast as possible would let the AI expand, but then we'd really have a fight.
Maybe squeeze Pavillion in to speed up border pop, then chop Kremlin complete with even more than 5 forest chops?


Our capital is limited since we can't whip it too much and doesn't have a lot of hammers.

It needs to make a Library before Turn 32 and work 2 scientists so we don't get a Great Spy as our first great person.

It also needs to make a Settler so we can work two gold mines and that capital gold improvement doesn't go unused.


Adopting Taoism soon gives a crucial +1 happiness and we can mange the diplo hit.
Best to get in when our cities are working 1 improvement and not 5.

Do we care about Organized Religion?
It is nice for building Kremlin, library, and granaries, but costs a few gold per turn.

 

[LowtherCastle]

LC,
I'll have some time to test tomorrow morning. Should we divide up testing tasks somehow?

I did some rough calcs on Kremlin today. What turn are you aiming for?

I don't think we can capture Mongolia on the same timeline.

Sounds good.
1. We need to decide on the city capture order.
2. We need to optimize Gua. Kait's plan sounds excellent. I realized that leaving it at pop3 (or even pop2), combined with capturing Hong Kong, allows it to refill the granary faster. #1 and #2 go together to some extent.
3. We need to decide how much we can divert Beijing from building the Kremlin (see Kait's new post above).
4. We need to decide on OrgRel or not.
5. We need to decide about stealing Roosy's and Bismarck's (when and where?) worker or not.

What would you like to test?

 

[LowtherCastle]

I agree with most of these points, but I would produce Chariots to grab workers and Swords in Beijing first until Mongolia and Toku's cities are in great danger.

We need that Fur!

I'm surely not thinking of postponing warring much, more just falling into line with your and WT's indifference to ASAP capture that I was pushing. Personally, I covet HongKong+Shanghai+Manchou+Mongolia a lot. I think their value asap is huge, especially with SP and 100% bonus granaries. I don't see any point in waiting for AIs to build stuff us that has a 33% chance of self-razing.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Note that we might lose our resource connection when Manchou pops its borders this turn.

 

[babybluepants]

Sounds good.
1. We need to decide on the city capture order.
2. We need to optimize Gua. Kait's plan sounds excellent. I realized that leaving it at pop3 (or even pop2), combined with capturing Hong Kong, allows it to refill the granary faster. #1 and #2 go together to some extent.
3. We need to decide how much we can divert Beijing from building the Kremlin (see Kait's new post above).
4. We need to decide on OrgRel or not.
5. We need to decide about stealing Roosy's and Bismarck's (when and where?) worker or not.

What would you like to test?

I'll play around with Beijing a bit right now.

I think that #3 is possibly the biggest point. Beijing is so fast at getting the early units out. Kremlin, even after the multipliers, is the equivalent of 10 swords or 14 chariots, and we can't produce those nearly as fast from Yan and Gua. Earlier Kremlin means slower expansion.

I think we should take Bismarck's worker(s) relatively soon, but it has to be situational - when we have a chariot / when he has only 1 LB in the city OR his LB is not in a position to attack / watch out for wandering archers... Not sure about Roosy. I'm inclined to leave him alone.

 

[babybluepants]

Note that we might lose our resource connection when Manchou pops its borders this turn.

I thought we established that it was coastal across France? In the test game, the Manchou border pop doesn't affect it.

 

[babybluepants]

Do we care about Organized Religion?
It is nice for building Kremlin, library, and granaries, but costs a few gold per turn.

Based on a quick rough calc, I think that either/both OR and Beijing forge essentially break even in Beijing during the Kremlin build.
That doesn't necessarily mean that OR pays for itself empire-wide in the short term.
It only contributes 3h to granaries (26 base-h instead of 29),and we have already invested half of those hammers in the base cities, so I don't think it's worth it for that.
What other buildings are we going to be building soon? Library in Yan and potentially LH+GLH in Shanghai?
Presumably the next chance to revolt will be when we get Monarchy. When is that? T40-something, if we are lucky?

 

[babybluepants]

Note that we might lose our resource connection when Manchou pops its borders this turn.

Note that we would also lose our trade connection when we DoW Churchill.

 

[babybluepants]

There is one funny thing I noticed in testing so far. The European AI's send a worker off to build a silk road highway immediately. Bismarck keeps roading right across our land - it's actually pretty useful. If we let him, he might road right from Beijing to our gold.