[BTS] SGOTM 25 - Home Slices

[LowtherCastle]

I suppose we will use Toku for our various EP plans (not even counting CS steal), so yea put EPs on him for now.
The rest looks great.
Smart to consider more chops and less whips for Kremlin. It would also be nice if all our other cities weren't whipped down to size 1 right before Kremlin, but do what you gotta do.

Is there any plan, or need, to mine the 3rd ring gold? or are we settling near other gold(s)? and not worrying about mining any til after Kremlin chops.

Okay on Toku eps. Planning to leave both Yanan and Gua with some pops.

No worker-turns available for gold right now. I was thinking that Mongolia could be a nice warrior pump if we connect the gold to Yanan instead. We could road three tiles that connect the Mongolian gold and the 2-gold city Kait proposed.

Of course if weren't such worrker-stealing freakazoids, the AIs could zoom through our lands and build our roads for us.

 

[LowtherCastle]

FYI, this inspired me to try again from an in-between save and skip the choko whips. I got T34 with a quick OR+forge run. I think I can shave a turn down to T33 with better worker management.
Then I tried from 1520BC with forge whip without OR, using your worker management, and got T34. I don't think I can shave a turn there.
So, I guess they do slow Kremlin down a bit. It makes sense. Forge costs 120h, but contributes only 85h to the Kremlin build.

Yes, I have a sneaking suspicion that there's a way to dovetail an early Kremlin with Taosim+OR+forge. Problem is, two turns of revolt cut into our unit production, slowing down our city capture. Just not sure we want to do that. I'm assuming the sooner we get those cities out of revolt the better.

As far as the Kremlin goes, of course, if we're going to revolt two turns anyway, then t32 Kremlin then revolt is the same as revolt then t34 Kremlin. I forgot to raise this question. This is perhaps the biggest unresolved issue right now and what it boils down to is it better to postpone some city captures for Tao+OR?

 

[LowtherCastle]

We can probably capture the worker several turns sooner than the attack on Mongolia. Would you delay the worker capture? If it is roading towards Mongolia, that may be ok.


Yes, this seems to work really well. There is so much food in Gua, we can just keep whipping units for a while.

We'll see what the Moscow wkr does. Not too interested in it going back to the iron tile, but if it starts roading toward us, we can definitely wait.

 

[babybluepants]

Mongolia: plan is sword+2chariots+archer vs. lbm+archer

Choko would be nicer than sword here, to soften the archer, and especially if Stalin somehow manages to get an extra archer (though that is doubtful). I guess Yan'an can't get the extra 20h out without delaying the whole timeline?

HongKong: choko+sword+chariot(+archer if needed) vs. lbm

Could we not skip the chariot and attack 1t sooner? With only 1 galley, I am hoping that we DoW+bomb+unload on T0, and strike-capture on T+1 with choko/sword. HK capture 3t after Mongolia capture (rebase/bomb/strike).

 

[babybluepants]

Yes, I have a sneaking suspicion that there's a way to dovetail an early Kremlin with Taosim+OR+forge. Problem is, two turns of revolt cut into our unit production, slowing down our city capture. Just not sure we want to do that. I'm assuming the sooner we get those cities out of revolt the better.

As far as the Kremlin goes, of course, if we're going to revolt two turns anyway, then t32 Kremlin then revolt is the same as revolt then t34 Kremlin. I forgot to raise this question. This is perhaps the biggest unresolved issue right now and what it boils down to is it better to postpone some city captures for Tao+OR?

You could also argue that capturing 2t later is no different than capturing sooner and having the city spend 2t in revolt (granted that some may be in revolt anyway). If we are thinking of revolting anyway that soon after, I would definitely consider doing it now, while our cities are pop 1. Our workers also gain 2t on initial improvements and chops. I don't think that the AIs will be much tougher defensively 2t later, will they?

Edit: For the record, I'm not sure we actually need Tao+OR early. I just think we may as well revolt sooner, if we do want it.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Choko would be nicer than sword here, to soften the archer, and especially if Stalin somehow manages to get an extra archer (though that is doubtful). I guess Yan'an can't get the extra 20h out without delaying the whole timeline?

Exactly. The choko's there to attack 1t late. PITA. I suppose with your HK idea, we could start Mongolia 1t later and shorten HK 1t. In any case, that's part of watching Mongolia for a settler. If it is, then no way another archer gets built. If not, maybe have to revert to the choko. My spreadsheet has contingency plans out the wazoo.

Could we not skip the chariot and attack 1t sooner? With only 1 galley, I am hoping that we DoW+bomb+unload on T0, and strike-capture on T+1 with choko/sword. HK capture 3t after Mongolia capture (rebase/bomb/strike).

We could try that but the odds are so much better against the 3.0 lbm and we're going so minimal on the units, that I'm not sure we really want to lower our odds. As it is, I'm expecting a fight against dG because he'll have time to build and whip defenders.

 

[LowtherCastle]

You could also argue that capturing 2t later is no different than capturing sooner and having the city spend 2t in revolt (granted that some may be in revolt anyway). If we are thinking of revolting anyway that soon after, I would definitely consider doing it now, while our cities are pop 1. Our workers also gain 2t on initial improvements and chops. I don't think that the AIs will be much tougher defensively 2t later, will they?

Edit: For the record, I'm not sure we actually need Tao+OR early. I just think we may as well revolt sooner, if we do want it.

I'm glad we're having this discussion. How to we decide?

 

[Kaitzilla]

Ancient Era civs tend to keep 2 units in their city and 3 in capital, but each Era it goes up one.
Hmm

1 or 2 more turns for AI to expand might be ok if they can only build Archers and Settlers.

Waiting or revolting now could really be argued either way.

The only diplo consequences are civs would plot war against us a bit more often.

Have we accounted for Ivory going offline for 3 to 4 turns in Gua when we DOW France?

I'm still slightly in favor of revolting as soon as the 5 Workers are out because +1 happy gives our empire more flexibility, and Org. Religion certainly must help Kremlin.


We gonna have 7 or 8 cities by turn 35, so 1st tech should be Currency since we'll have that 1 island city and foreign trade routes.

If we decide against Astro, then Alpha 1st for spies to rob Japan of Civ.
50% bonus in capital and farming irrigation to the rice in Beijing is nice.
Plus, we would unlock Macemen since we already have Machinery.


Plan sounds good.
Don't forget to trade Roosevelt resources.
And don't accept demands that gives 10T of peace unless it is Ottomans, Rome, or America.

 

[WastinTime]

We gonna have 7 or 8 cities by turn 35, so 1st tech should be Currency since we'll have that 1 island city and foreign trade routes.

Currency shines when you can trade the AI for 100 gold here and there.
Available gold is based on population so the AI will only trade 10-20 gold. I doubt we give them, for example, Machinery for 10g.

Even if we have an island and 8 cities, TRs will be +2/city = +16gpt.
We will not earn enough to pay for the cost of currency in a reasonable time.

Conclusion: no currency

 

[Kaitzilla]

Currency shines when you can trade the AI for 100 gold here and there.
Available gold is based on population so the AI will only trade 10-20 gold. I doubt we give them, for example, Machinery for 10g.

Even if we have an island and 8 cities, TRs will be +2/city = +16gpt.
We will not earn enough to pay for the cost of currency in a reasonable time.

Conclusion: no currency

16 per turn is a lot.

We can also beg for 10 to delay a war 10 turns.
Or pay 10 to stop Bismark's war so he will build more Workers to steal.
Maybe resources for 2 per turn if someone gets 10 pop.

Are we saving up for something besides Currency?

 

[WastinTime]

16 per turn is a lot.

but Currency is 608. That'd be over 31 turns to break even.
Don't you think we can trade for it or steal it?

Sometimes HBR sounds good. But then there's always the Astronomy rush.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Ancient Era civs tend to keep 2 units in their city and 3 in capital, but each Era it goes up one.

SO that's a logic for capture asap, right?

Have we accounted for Ivory going offline for 3 to 4 turns in Gua when we DOW France?

No, thanks.

Don't forget to trade Roosevelt resources.

DO you mean Toku? We're not connected to any other capital.

And don't accept demands that gives 10T of peace unless it is Ottomans, Rome, or America.

Good point.

 

[LowtherCastle]

1Or pay 10 to stop Bismark's war so he will build more Workers to steal.

How are we going to stop Bismarck's war without something like this?

Are we saving up for something besides Currency?

I'm still waiting to see on Astro.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Another way to look at our tech choice is how can we gear up for very fast teching asap? Is there a single tech that can assist that?

 

[Kaitzilla]

SO that's a logic for capture asap, right?

No, thanks.

DO you mean Toku? We're not connected to any other capital.
Good point.

Ok, resources to Toku.
Forgot it had to be to a capital to trade resources.


Bismark's war will just have to continue for a long time.
No easy way to stop it.

I don't really see an opportunity for Tachwaxon's trick. (build 2 roads using a worker to help capture another worker)



I'm happy with the broad strokes of the plan and have no strong objections.
Whatever judgement call you make I'll support.

Ask team for more input if you feel uneasy about anything.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I don't really see an opportunity for Tachwaxon's trick. (build 2 roads using a worker to help capture another worker)

How about completing a chariot in Beijing when he has a worker on the copper (stone roaded)? Any chance that would work?

 

[Kaitzilla]

How about completing a chariot in Beijing when he has a worker on the copper (stone roaded)? Any chance that would work?

Oh!!!

Ya, if we bomb the copper mine, eventually Bismark will move a new worker on it and start a new mine.

It all depends on if producing a Chariot occurs at the end of the human's turn or at the start of the next.

It might be possible to capture a 2nd Worker during a war using the method you described, but it needs testing to see if the AI senses the danger or not.

 

[babybluepants]

In the test save, Bismarck will sign CF after 4t, following worker capture and bomber strike at the LB. If we steal a second worker, he will CF after only 2t. In testing, he does build a quick second worker (as in on the current turn).

The LB doesn't attack after a bomber strike, but will without strike. The one interesting thing is that the LB doesn't get any XP from surviving a bomber strike, so there is no reason not to.

 

[babybluepants]

I'm still waiting to see on Astro.

Same here.

Which reminds me, how long do you intend to play in this set?

 

[LowtherCastle]

Same here.

Which reminds me, how long do you intend to play in this set?

At least to the point where I know WT can't screw it all up. I figured somewhere into the 20s.