[BTS] SGOTM 25 - Home Slices

[Kaitzilla]

What GPs do we need, aside from possibly 2 GSes for Astro? At least one Artist, maybe one more Spy, and any GPs for GAges. Anything else?

We definitely need 2 Great Scientists if we want Astro.
Each Great Scientist is at least 1500, and Astro is a hard 3000 that gets no benefits from prereq multipliers.

A 3rd Great Scientist to bulb 950 Optics would also be helpful even if a bit of a waste.

Definitely need 1 Great Artist, and 1 more Great Spy would be extremely helpful.
Even a Great Prophet from our capital would be useful to make another Shrine for 4 more points.

I hate building Mausoleum for just 1 Golden Age, but again, it is 4 more points.
We have enough very large cities to make a pile of Great Scientist/Great Artists/Great Merchants as long as we run Caste+Pacifism during a Golden Age.

Have Beijing build a Monastery to spam Tao Missionaries eventually?
It is +1 per turn and all our Great People cities will need religion.

 

[Kaitzilla]

If we are building the Great Lighthouse in Shanghai soon, then we need 1 more island city to make it shine.
There simply aren't enough foreign trade routes to support Currency + The Great Lighthouse with only 1 island city.

So we can't do the dreamy +6 (Liberate) to Tokugawa option.

 

[Kaitzilla]

LIberation: +6 or more (4 liberated cities or more)

More than +6?
OH!!!

Yes, that's right, as long as we don't put any into the 2 gift cities, then we can gift them to Tokugawa for +3 diplo(Liberate)
Then, once we DoW Toku, we can capture those 2 cities, sign a fast Cease Fire in 2 turns, then gift them back to Tokugawa for ANOTHER +3 diplo (Liberate).
The gifts would have to occur while both cities were still in revolt.
Cities without religion get a spread eventually, and with us running no religion it would be +1 per turn once they came out of revolt and then (Liberate) would disappear I think.

That's like going to war and getting no penalties besides Open Borders and +1 peace resetting, and we can capture that fat Fur City, hahaha.

Just need the 2 gift cities to grow to Size 2 without putting any culture into them ourselves.
Uhh, give Toku enough time to grow the two cities to Size 2 himself?

If we did this with 3 gift cities, we could force Tokugawa to Friendly status +1.5 diplo per war.

The troop and navy and Settler commitments would be pretty high.
Conquering the same cities over and over and Cease Fires tie up valuable troops for a lot of turns.
Any civs that got to Pleased with Toku would also be outraged.
Also, the constant wars would make Toku stop teching and spam units in his capital to fight back with.

The cheapest way would be to settle and Liberate 1 city on the northwest of Tokugawa's island.
Tokugawa would then naturally settle the other 2 city spots himself. (Well, maybe just the fish to the east)
We get +diplo (Liberate) for cities the AI builds close to its capital itself right?

 

[LowtherCastle]

With Kremlin we need to re-evaluate the value of wonders. For example, GLH doesn't hurt terribly only giving +1c TRs for a while. Yes, I believe we can capture and re-liberate cities as much as we want with none (or very little of our culture compared to his) as long as we do it one at a time (not using DanF's exploit).

 

[LowtherCastle]

We definitely need 2 Great Scientists if we want Astro.
Each Great Scientist is at least 1500, and Astro is a hard 3000 that gets no benefits from prereq multipliers.

A 3rd Great Scientist to bulb 950 Optics would also be helpful even if a bit of a waste.

Definitely need 1 Great Artist, and 1 more Great Spy would be extremely helpful.
Even a Great Prophet from our capital would be useful to make another Shrine for 4 more points.

I hate building Mausoleum for just 1 Golden Age, but again, it is 4 more points.
We have enough very large cities to make a pile of Great Scientist/Great Artists/Great Merchants as long as we run Caste+Pacifism during a Golden Age.

Have Beijing build a Monastery to spam Tao Missionaries eventually?
It is +1 per turn and all our Great People cities will need religion.

Castes is painful with Kremlin and without Representation. How about just Pacifism? Work 2 scientists asap in Gua. That's 12gppt * 17t = 200gps (assuming it can beat Yanan and Beijing). Build GLib in Shanghai for 24gppt * 13t = 300gps. Need to find another location for GLH. Hm... still costs revolts to Tao and Pacifism.

 

[Kaitzilla]

OK, the current plan is put +20 into Toku for 1 turn while preparing to take Shanghai.
If Alpha is coming very soon, get Alpha 1st with trade and 1 city gift before the war. (7 turns)

If Alpha is not coming soon, do the war right away (5 turns)
Sign a Cease fire 2 turns later, then prepare 2 city gifts for +3 Liberate to get Toku to Pleased to sign Open Borders after the war is over.
-3 from DOW
+3 from Liberate, +4 from fair trade, +1 from resources.

Does the +1 Appreciate Resources return after a war when resources are gifted again, or does it have to build back up from 0 like Open Borders bonus?

 

[LowtherCastle]

OK, the current plan is put +20 into Toku for 1 turn while preparing to take Shanghai.
If Alpha is coming very soon, get Alpha 1st with trade and 1 city gift before the war. (7 turns)

We currently have 68eps on Toku and need 91 to see his research. Have you done calcs that show by adding 21eps (50%) this turn, we'll see his tech choice? If we want to run more than 50% then we can't get the border pop in Beijing. That wouldn't slow down the Kremlin but it would waste two worker turns.

Does the +1 Appreciate Resources return after a war when resources are gifted again, or does it have to build back up from 0 like Open Borders bonus?

Yes! Just tested it. There is one contingency though. We lose 1 resource-trade-turn for each turn we're not trading him at least one resource. So in my test, I got him to +2 with exactly 100 resource-turns. Two turns of DOW, CF, and we had +1. Traded one resource for two turns and it was +2 again.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Another idea for the 2 GSes. We just spam GPs. For example, we could build a library in Beijing and run some scientists. If we get a Spy, so be it, we keep it. We build a library, GLH and maybe Colossus in Shanghai and run scientists. If we get a GM, we start a GA and crank out two GSes with the 300% GP rate. This allows us to move forward with GLH and postpone the Astro decision but still get the two GSes asap if we choose.

Kremlin also allows running two spy specialists so we should be able to get a second pure Spy later if we get a Scientist now. Or even add a courthouse for another spy specialist.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I so rarely use the culture slider that I was confused when I put it to 50% and all our cities were so happy. Who needs HR?!?!? With all those silly units garrisoning our cities?!?!? Add a pavilion to our biggest cities and it's +2 for each 10% culture slider. Add Kremlin for turbo whips and WB economy for cash flow and we shouldn't have to worry about happies.

In any case a pavilion asap for our two biggest culture cities after our LC. And those two cities should get the most culture wonders. We might even want to consider Globe for Yanan, since it's food rich and hammer poor. Just whip it endlessly.

 

[Kaitzilla]

I so rarely use the culture slider that I was confused when I put it to 50% and all our cities were so happy. Who needs HR?!?!? With all those silly units garrisoning our cities?!?!? Add a pavilion to our biggest cities and it's +2 for each 10% culture slider. Add Kremlin for turbo whips and WB economy for cash flow and we shouldn't have to worry about happies.

In any case a pavilion asap for our two biggest culture cities after our LC. And those two cities should get the most culture wonders. We might even want to consider Globe for Yanan, since it's food rich and hammer poor. Just whip it endlessly.

Heh, this aspect of the culture slider is appealing especially if there are lots of Representation powered specialists, but most games the science slider and sometimes espionage slider are needed more.
It is good to keep in mind if a critical city falls 1 or 2 happiness short.

We currently have 68eps on Toku and need 91 to see his research. Have you done calcs that show by adding 21eps (50%) this turn, we'll see his tech choice? If we want to run more than 50% then we can't get the border pop in Beijing. That wouldn't slow down the Kremlin but it would waste two worker turns.

Yes! Just tested it. There is one contingency though. We lose 1 resource-trade-turn for each turn we're not trading him at least one resource. So in my test, I got him to +2 with exactly 100 resource-turns. Two turns of DOW, CF, and we had +1. Traded one resource for two turns and it was +2 again.

It depends on how much we value Worker turns.
Wasting 2 worker turns and saving 20 might be worth it.

Thanks for testing that!
+1 and even +2 resource bonus will be very helpful later on.

 

[Kaitzilla]

PPP Draft 2
​

Turn 29 Empire Screenshots

Spoiler :

Plan going forward
T29 - Cease Fire with De Gaulle
70% slider to peek at Tokugawa's tech path.
If Alpha or Currency, then pause for team's input on tech choice.
If Tokugawa is teching something besides Alpha or Currency, 100% slider on Currency on T30.
We will soon have 8 cities, so Currency is the strongest tech for us.

Leaving Tokugawa's capital alive will let him use Bureaucracy and his Palace to tech things for us using Deity bonuses.
We can swiftly crush Manchou beginning bombing on T31 and a T33 capture using Choko, whipped Sword (no culture slider allows 6/40 whip on T30), and 4 Chariots (road Rice).
This will let us sign a Cease Fire on T34.

2 City gifts on Tokugawa's island will allow +3 Liberate and +4 Fair Trade bonus.
Combined with +1 "Appreciate Resources", the +8 boost combined with -3 DoW penalty will get us to Pleased with Tokugawa and Open Border.
The Open borders and 2 cities will allow Toku to tech much faster and allow us to trade for Alpha or Monarchy when Tokugawa techs it.

All Military units will focus on Toku's Shanghai, then Bismark's Tsingtao.
Toku's Galley will endanger our Fish for 3 turns, but our Galley can defend if necessary during the short war.
Will send 1 Chariot on the Galley to try to grab a Coastline Worker from Toku's capital on T34 when Toku will Cease Fire. (Thanks LtC)

I am now in favor of capturing Manchou as fast as possible no matter what Tokugawa is teching.
Whether we get Alpha on Turn 36 before the DoW or Turn 41 after the DoW doesn't make a big difference.
The Japanese capital 100 border pop around T33 will not cover any of the city sites on his island, so clearly the mapmaker loves us.

Gobbling up Roosevelt's Chongqing or stealing his Worker is tempting, but we still need Open Border with Roosevelt for our Bomber once Roosevelt captures barb cities so we can scout Circumnavigation bonus.

City Builds (With Kremlin, 3 pop whips on 2/100 builds are possible, and 2 pop whips on 2/50 builds are possible)
Yanan - Use Avoid Growth 1 turn, grow to Size 5 on T30, build Settler for 2 turns, 2 pop whip overflow into Library T33. Finish Library with chop.
Settler settles 3N2W of capital for Cows+2Gold.
Mongolia - Grow to Size 2, Worker, whip complete T33, overflow into Warrior.
Beijing - Max food to get 6/40 into Swordsman, 2 pop whip Sword T30, no whip complete Kremlin
Guanghou - Grow to Size 4, 2 pop whip Settler on T33, overflow to complete Workboat.
Hong Kong - Grow and work gems, whip Granary when appropriate, start Lighthouse.
Shanghai - Out of revolt T35, 2 pop whip Library T36, 3 pop whip Forge later, The Great Lighthouse with 5 chops

Our 7 Workers
Sheep Worker - Finish Sheep T30, Road sheep T31-T32, Move to Gold T33, Road Gold T34-T35, Mine Gold T36-T37, Mongolia not connect to empire, but gold is.
Plain Hill Worker - Move to Forest 2E of Yana T30, Chop T31-T33, Move to CowGolds City to chop Granary and then improve Cows.
North of Beijing Worker - Road T30 to waste a turn, Chop T31, move to 3S of Mongolia, Road 3S of Mongolia T33-T35, Mine Gold T36-T37, Mongolia not connected to empire, but gold is.
T34 Mongolia Worker - Move to Deer T34, Improve Deer T35-T40
South of Beijing Worker 1 - Chop T30-T31, Road Rice for the 3 Chariots T32, Watermill Flood plain T33-T37.
South of Beijing Worker 2 - Road 1T to waste a turn, Chop T31, Road Rice for the 3 Chariots T32, Watermill Flood plain T33-T37.
Hong Kong Worker - Mine Gems T30-T33, Road Gems T34-T35, Get on Galley T36, head to 3S of Shanghai to chop The Great Lighthouse.
Shanghai Worker - Prechop forests west of Shaghai for The Great Lighthouse chops later.

Bomber Plan
T30 - In Bejing, Recon 8E1N of Beijing
T31 - Bomb Manchou's defenses
T32-T33 - Bombard Manchou
T34+ Bomb Bismark's Tsinghao
T40? Move to Rome
T41 Unfog coastline for trade route and resource exchange for per turn

Spoiler :

Great Spy
T30-T34 Spy on Manchou to help gobble up workers and watch Settler movements
T35 Head to southwest of Gau shoreline to unfog coastline to open up trade to AI out west.

Spoiler :

Diplomacy
Cease Fire with France T29
DoW Japan T31
Cease Fire with Japan T34
Build relations with Japan, Rome, and America
Ignore the rest of the AI

Great People
Great Spy scheduled to be born Turn 42 thanks to Kremlin.

Notes
Choko #2 near Shanghai will be upgraded with Combat I, not Drill II.
It already has 2-3 first strikes and I like Combat promos on Chokos more than drill.
Sword will get City Raider II upgrade to heal faster.
Southern Archer will garrison 7 pop Shanghai.
Gems comes online on T35.
Gold comes online on T37.

 

[babybluepants]

I so rarely use the culture slider that I was confused when I put it to 50% and all our cities were so happy.

We'll need this on the last turn of the game, if we don't kill everyone, to fix our approval rating.

 

[babybluepants]

PPP looks good to me so far.

We can swiftly crush Shanghai

Also known as Manchou

 

[LowtherCastle]

Manchou weirdly has 37h in its current build.
T25(--h settler completed)
T26(--h barracks completed), growth to pop4
T27(18h) furs camped, worker ready to move, +7 final-h = 6h * 125% OR bonus
T28(25h) Manchou-1s2e apparently roaded by 2nd worker but maybe earlier, growth to pop5 so not building a settler, +12 final-h = 10h * 125% OR bonus
T29(37h)

Manchou cannot be building an Ancient Era unit or a lbm (28h), which makes no sense with a settler waiting for an escort. 37h can only be a temple (38h), a library (43h), some other later era building or unit or a wonder. No chops have been completed by Manchou.

So it's probably a library, since Toku has a science Flavor 2. If so, on T30 he'll complete the library, the SabProd will be --, and there will be 4h overflow, so that on T31 he could have put 14h into an archer(12h), and axe(16h) or a sword(19h). If we're lucky it's not an archer and we can DoW and pillage the iron to put the hammers into a warrior (or does that erase them?).

 

[LowtherCastle]

Notes to PPP Draft 1:
0. Looks great!
1. 60% ep slider is too risky. I'm not going to search out the formula but as we add eps, we also tend to increase the number needed. I'd make it at least 70%. No need to be sparing since we need the eps for CS anyway.
2.

I am now in favor of capturing Shanghai as fast as possible no matter what Tokugawa is teching.

Manchou?
3. Please include a plan for attempting to capture Manchou's two workers and the Tokyo worker. The Gua chariot should be able to board the galley at the end of the dyes peninsula on ~T31 (iirc). We could gain as many as 4 workers from Toku (including the settler in Manchou).
4. I would also include a plan for a chariot to pillage the iron on DoW(T+0). That might even draw out the lbm miraculously. In any case, it should prevent a sword or axe from appearing. Based on my analysis in the above post, I see no need for a sword whip in Beijing. I'm not opposing the sword whip, but I think it's overkill (and I'm pretty conservative) and Beijing grows slowly.

Green light!

 

[Kaitzilla]

Notes to PPP Draft 1:
0. Looks great!
1. 60% ep slider is too risky. I'm not going to search out the formula but as we add eps, we also tend to increase the number needed. I'd make it at least 70%. No need to be sparing since we need the eps for CS anyway.
2. Manchou?
3. Please include a plan for attempting to capture Manchou's two workers and the Tokyo worker. The Gua chariot should be able to board the galley at the end of the dyes peninsula on ~T31 (iirc). We could gain as many as 4 workers from Toku (including the settler in Manchou).
4. I would also include a plan for a chariot to pillage the iron on DoW(T+0). That might even draw out the lbm miraculously. In any case, it should prevent a sword or axe from appearing. Based on my analysis in the above post, I see no need for a sword whip in Beijing. I'm not opposing the sword whip, but I think it's overkill (and I'm pretty conservative) and Beijing grows slowly.

Green light!

Ok, slider to 70%

Will sail 1 Chariot down south and try to grab a coastline Worker the turn Toku is willing to sign a Cease Fire.

1 Choko + 4 Chariots feels a bit light against LB+Archer+emergency whip.
Pillaging the Iron Mine on T31 is a great idea to halt the dreaded Sword/Spear whip!

What's the best way to ensure we get both Manchou Workers?
Usually it is Chariots using roads after the city is captured to grab the workers, but it is likely only 1 Chariot will be unused if things go as expected.
Missed Workers tend to delete themselves if there is no hope.
Send one Chariot up to fur area now?
Or keep both Chariots near Iron and try to grab them when they go to improve River Floodplains + Grassland?

 

[babybluepants]

I would also include a plan for a chariot to pillage the iron on DoW(T+0).

This consistently happened in my testing, so we want to pillage and have 2 chariots ready to attack the same tile the following turn. Toku will sometimes even attack with an archer after the LB is dead.

I don't think Toku will send his settler out until he has another archer. If Manchou is building a library, per LC's calcs, we should be able to capture in the city. Unless he has an archer wandering around in the NE and coming back.

 

[LowtherCastle]

The GSPy will find them this turn. I think they finished the eastern mine this or last turn, so they need to pick a new tile to improve. I'd cottage the fp, but I'm not Tokugawa. He might go to that dry grass hill.

Yeah, go with the whip. We might need a chariot to capture workers on the far side of the city (make sure they're on a road). You could also send the archer to make sure we can capture the workers, especially if they're in two places. Use the cultural slider for happiness as needed.

 

[WastinTime]

We lose 1 resource-trade-turn for each turn we're not trading him at least one resource. So in my test, I got him to +2 with exactly 100 resource-turns. Two turns of DOW, CF, and we had +1. Traded one resource for two turns and it was +2 again.

Interesting. I always thought that any turn you're not trading resources there is an X% chance it decays. Sounds like it's not random after all.

In any case a pavilion asap

I fail to see the value of these pavilions. I thought we had a reasonable excuse to build one but I can't recall rt now. But spamming them?

 

[babybluepants]

Yes! Just tested it. There is one contingency though. We lose 1 resource-trade-turn for each turn we're not trading him at least one resource. So in my test, I got him to +2 with exactly 100 resource-turns. Two turns of DOW, CF, and we had +1. Traded one resource for two turns and it was +2 again.

iirc, we can also speed this up with more resource trades. If you make two trades (not two resources in one trade) for 25t, it equals +1.

edit: xpost