[BTS] SGOTM 25 - Home Slices

[babybluepants]

I hate AP. Such a PITA timing it. Okay, bbp, you're hired. Just don't time it for later than we need it.

Something I gotta tell you:

Spoiler :

I have never actually won a game by AP.

Maybe we should just give that assignment to Mitchum.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Manchou already has a barracks, btw.

Thnx!

Miminalist Strategy -- 3 LCs

1. Paris is within striking distance of Rome. Gift JC a city asap so he'll start roading to it for us.
2. Send out a stack of chariots and roaders to speed to Paris.
3. Minimum we need: 2 GSpies + 3 GArtists + Alpha + 90(?) spies + Theology + AP + 13 more wonders total + Wonder techs
4. Build Pavilion, Globe, Parthenon and NE and run 5 artists in GA spam city.
5. Run 2 spies in Beijing if necessary.
6. Settle all health resources

100 Mil
100 Culture
095 Civil
058 Diplo
014 Tech
056 Wonders
-----
423

Oh ya, Globe let's a city run 5 Artists.

That, or we win by AP, skip 2GA and all the 3LC mess, build 15 wonders. We only tech Theo, Aest, Lit and maybe HBR.

This sounds like the least effort ya.
In a perfect world, Stalin or Bismark will tech HBR, and we can steal it cheap using the 2 gold city as a gift city with a -50% spy in it.

Kill all 7 AI, gift Roosevelt a Tao city, adjust our population until our Colony votes us over the diplo victory threshold.
Getting the AP win requires a perfect timing though.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Okay, with only 1 LC then we can consider 3 GSpies if they can be done in time. I think whipping the sword in Beijing might actually delay our finish time. Manchou is not mission critical. It's just something mice to have. And its workers are even less important.

Manchou is a hugely fat city with potentially 3 Workers.
But whipping Beijing might delay our finish time?

Our 2 Workers can improve the 4 Rice after roading Rice to speed up Beijing's regrowth.

Will play the 1 turn as planned in 30 minutes.
The Sword will be a good idea, you'll see.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I don't think we need to worry about civil. With the cultural slider and lots of healthies, I think we can get 95-100 no matter how many AIs are living.

Changed my mind. Studying theLife Expectancy, it appears that it's the average of the city scores, so one city with a 50% score (large city) messes up the average more than adding a city with close to 100% score. If we have a lot of big cities, we're almost bound to have a lower life expectancy than smaller AIs.

I alsofound a weird problem. Export/Import. This is the net balance of yours versus theirs and the Big Catch, if we're all balanced at 0, we're ranked 9th. So if they're all running Mercanilism we're all at 0 and we're 9th. The only way to get a positive score is to somehow have a TR that's giving us more than ours is giving theirs. This is hard because if we have a big city, they get a bigger value from our pop than we get from their pop, so we're liable to have a net negative. We can affect this by having, for example, a pop1 city with Temple of Artemis.

Interestingly, we've been ranked 9th formost of the game with all players at 0 but now we're 1st with a +1. Hong Kong is getting 3c with CHonquing, which for some reason is more than Chongquing is getting from its TR with us. I suppose it has a 2c TR with Yanan and hasn't defogged to HK yet. Once it does, I suppose it'll switch TRs and we'll drop back to 9th again.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Oh ya, Globe let's a city run 5 Artists.

Globe + Pavilion = 5 artists.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Something I gotta tell you:

Spoiler :

I have never actually won a game by AP.

Maybe we should just give that assignment to Mitchum.

We did it in the last (?) SG and it went fine but I was feeling full of anal energy. This time I'm low on energy, anal or otherwise. No probs, it's doable. It just requires doing the calcs far enough in advance to optimize it correctly. We get AP to 400h - a few and finish just in time.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Manchou is a hugely fat city with potentially 3 Workers.
But whipping Beijing might delay our finish time?

Yes. Indeed. Because we're minimizing this down to the point where we might already have enough cities and we just do it. So the Critical Path might be our 3rd GSpy. You tell me, but my understanding is we want the GSpies bombed before we start the cycle we've discussed and that cycle takes X turns. So our finish time becomes 3rd GSpy + X turns. The later GSpy#3, the later we win. Whipping Beijing without a doubt delays GSpy#3.

Meanwhile, we'll capture Manchou as per your plan but we might miss on 1 or 2 workers. Well, those workers we can crank out as needed. Production will not be our long path.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Yes. Indeed. Because we're minimizing this down to the point where we might already have enough cities and we just do it. So the Critical Path might be our 3rd GSpy. You tell me, but my understanding is we want the GSpies bombed before we start the cycle we've discussed and that cycle takes X turns. So our finish time becomes 3rd GSpy + X turns. The later GSpy#3, the later we win. Whipping Beijing without a doubt delays GSpy#3.

Meanwhile, we'll capture Manchou as per your plan but we might miss on 1 or 2 workers. Well, those workers we can crank out as needed. Production will not be our long path.

Our win time chokepoint is the 150,000 city time?
Hmm

If we have our spies do 0 turns waiting for the first 75,000 (60 Spy missions), then 5 turns waiting for the last 75,000 (15 Spy missions), that means we need 56,250 points, not 40,000 points.

3 Great Spies would make it easier sure, but I think we can get by with 2 Great Spies.

With rounding losses from unspent (need a spreadsheet to calculate this), I can't imagine needing more than 11 or 12 cycles with 2 Great Spies.
With 3 Great Spies, we'd only need 7 or 8 cycles.

Keep in mind that the 1st cycle will last a long time until our spies build up and the costs increase.
As long as we build up a good army of Spies, the cycles will speed up until we reach the max of every 2 turns, and the more spies we can afford to wait 5 turns near the end for -50% bonus, the less cycles we need.

With a good AI like De Gaulle, the limiting factor for speed is a huge army of spies as fast as possible, because they are gonna die a lot doing 75 missions.

This kind of thing has a very baked in amount of time to perform, so the sooner we get 1 Great Artist and get started on it, the better!
Paris must fall.

 

[LowtherCastle]

It's okay, whip the sword. We'll figure it out.

 

[LowtherCastle]

BUt let's get Beijing more food asap. High worker priority. Plus, if we're skipping the Classical tech 14 points, we can steal CS asap for another food on the rice tile.

 

[babybluepants]

Yes. Indeed. Because we're minimizing this down to the point where we might already have enough cities and we just do it. So the Critical Path might be our 3rd GSpy. You tell me, but my understanding is we want the GSpies bombed before we start the cycle we've discussed and that cycle takes X turns. So our finish time becomes 3rd GSpy + X turns. The later GSpy#3, the later we win. Whipping Beijing without a doubt delays GSpy#3.

Meanwhile, we'll capture Manchou as per your plan but we might miss on 1 or 2 workers. Well, those workers we can crank out as needed. Production will not be our long path.

Can we not just add ep, if we get an extra GSpy later?

 

[babybluepants]

With rounding losses from unspent (need a spreadsheet to calculate this), I can't imagine needing more than 11 or 12 cycles with 2 Great Spies.

I could do a spreadsheet later tonight.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Playing now

Link to LowtherCastle's previous turnset.

Turnset #1: T29-T30

T29 - Signed Cease Fire with De Gauelle
70% slider on Tokugawa
Gifted Tokugawa Rice
Gifted Tokugawa Corn

T30 - Tokugawa will finish Alphabet in 9 turns.
Great Spy discovered both Manchou Workers.
Tokyo Worker spotted!

Romans founded a 2nd city.

Spoiler :

Paused and uploaded.
Log:

Spoiler :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 900 BC to 875 BC:

Turn 79, 900 BC: Your Bomber has attacked an enemy Longbowman! (-31% Damage)
Turn 79, 900 BC: Your Bomber has caused collateral damage! (3 Units)
Turn 79, 900 BC: You are the worst enemy of Churchill, Bismarck, Stalin.
Turn 79, 900 BC: Churchill is the worst enemy of Tokugawa.
Turn 79, 900 BC: De Gaulle is the worst enemy of Roosevelt.
Turn 79, 900 BC: Roosevelt is the worst enemy of De Gaulle, Mehmed II.
Turn 79, 900 BC: Will Sign Peace Treaty: De Gaulle
Turn 79, 900 BC: SGOTM25's Cho-Ko-Nu 2 (Guangzhou) (6.00) vs De Gaulle's Longbowman (4.65)
Turn 79, 900 BC: Combat Odds: 92.3%
Turn 79, 900 BC: (Plot Defense: +5%)
Turn 79, 900 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 79, 900 BC: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 79, 900 BC: Your Cho-Ko-Nu 2 (Guangzhou) has caused collateral damage! (3 Units)
Turn 79, 900 BC: SGOTM25's Cho-Ko-Nu 2 (Guangzhou) is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 79, 900 BC: De Gaulle's Longbowman is hit for 18 (32/100HP)
Turn 79, 900 BC: De Gaulle's Longbowman is hit for 18 (14/100HP)
Turn 79, 900 BC: SGOTM25's Cho-Ko-Nu 2 (Guangzhou) is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 79, 900 BC: De Gaulle's Longbowman is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 79, 900 BC: SGOTM25's Cho-Ko-Nu 2 (Guangzhou) has defeated De Gaulle's Longbowman!
Turn 79, 900 BC: Your Cho-Ko-Nu 2 (Guangzhou) has destroyed a Longbowman!
Turn 79, 900 BC: SGOTM25's Cho-Ko-Nu 1 (Guangzhou) (6.00) vs De Gaulle's Archer (4.30)
Turn 79, 900 BC: Combat Odds: 92.7%
Turn 79, 900 BC: (Plot Defense: +5%)
Turn 79, 900 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 79, 900 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 79, 900 BC: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 79, 900 BC: Your Cho-Ko-Nu 1 (Guangzhou) has caused collateral damage! (2 Units)
Turn 79, 900 BC: SGOTM25's Cho-Ko-Nu 1 (Guangzhou) is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 79, 900 BC: De Gaulle's Archer is hit for 21 (49/100HP)
Turn 79, 900 BC: SGOTM25's Cho-Ko-Nu 1 (Guangzhou) is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 79, 900 BC: De Gaulle's Archer is hit for 21 (28/100HP)
Turn 79, 900 BC: De Gaulle's Archer is hit for 21 (7/100HP)
Turn 79, 900 BC: SGOTM25's Cho-Ko-Nu 1 (Guangzhou) is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 79, 900 BC: SGOTM25's Cho-Ko-Nu 1 (Guangzhou) is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 79, 900 BC: SGOTM25's Cho-Ko-Nu 1 (Guangzhou) is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 79, 900 BC: SGOTM25's Cho-Ko-Nu 1 (Guangzhou) is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 79, 900 BC: De Gaulle's Archer has defeated SGOTM25's Cho-Ko-Nu 1 (Guangzhou)!
Turn 79, 900 BC: Your Cho-Ko-Nu 1 (Guangzhou) has died trying to attack a Archer!
Turn 79, 900 BC: SGOTM25's Swordsman 2 (Guangzhou) (5.10) vs De Gaulle's Archer (2.97)
Turn 79, 900 BC: Combat Odds: 95.4%
Turn 79, 900 BC: (Plot Defense: +5%)
Turn 79, 900 BC: (Fortify: +15%)
Turn 79, 900 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 79, 900 BC: (City Attack: -30%)
Turn 79, 900 BC: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 79, 900 BC: SGOTM25's Swordsman 2 (Guangzhou) is hit for 16 (69/100HP)
Turn 79, 900 BC: SGOTM25's Swordsman 2 (Guangzhou) is hit for 16 (53/100HP)
Turn 79, 900 BC: SGOTM25's Swordsman 2 (Guangzhou) is hit for 16 (37/100HP)
Turn 79, 900 BC: De Gaulle's Archer is hit for 23 (37/100HP)
Turn 79, 900 BC: SGOTM25's Swordsman 2 (Guangzhou) is hit for 16 (21/100HP)
Turn 79, 900 BC: De Gaulle's Archer is hit for 23 (14/100HP)
Turn 79, 900 BC: SGOTM25's Swordsman 2 (Guangzhou) is hit for 16 (5/100HP)
Turn 79, 900 BC: De Gaulle's Archer is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 79, 900 BC: SGOTM25's Swordsman 2 (Guangzhou) has defeated De Gaulle's Archer!
Turn 79, 900 BC: Your Swordsman 2 (Guangzhou) has destroyed a Archer!
Turn 79, 900 BC: SGOTM25's Chariot 4 (Beijing) (4.40) vs De Gaulle's Archer (2.79)
Turn 79, 900 BC: Combat Odds: 94.1%
Turn 79, 900 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 79, 900 BC: (Plot Defense: +5%)
Turn 79, 900 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 79, 900 BC: SGOTM25's Chariot 4 (Beijing) is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 79, 900 BC: De Gaulle's Archer is hit for 21 (39/100HP)
Turn 79, 900 BC: De Gaulle's Archer is hit for 21 (18/100HP)
Turn 79, 900 BC: De Gaulle's Archer is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 79, 900 BC: SGOTM25's Chariot 4 (Beijing) has defeated De Gaulle's Archer!
Turn 79, 900 BC: Your Chariot 4 (Beijing) has destroyed a Archer!
Turn 79, 900 BC: SGOTM25's Chariot 1 (Guangzhou) (4.00) vs De Gaulle's Archer (0.37)
Turn 79, 900 BC: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 79, 900 BC: (Plot Defense: +5%)
Turn 79, 900 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 79, 900 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 79, 900 BC: De Gaulle's Archer is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 79, 900 BC: SGOTM25's Chariot 1 (Guangzhou) has defeated De Gaulle's Archer!
Turn 79, 900 BC: Your Chariot 1 (Guangzhou) has destroyed a Archer!
Turn 79, 900 BC: You have captured a Worker
Turn 79, 900 BC: You have captured Shanghai!!!
Turn 79, 900 BC: You are the worst enemy of Churchill, Bismarck, Stalin.
Turn 79, 900 BC: Churchill is the worst enemy of Tokugawa.
Turn 79, 900 BC: De Gaulle is the worst enemy of Roosevelt.
Turn 79, 900 BC: Roosevelt is the worst enemy of De Gaulle, Mehmed II.
Turn 79, 900 BC: The borders of Beijing are about to expand.
Turn 79, 900 BC: Will Sign Peace Treaty: De Gaulle
Turn 79, 900 BC: You have made peace with De Gaulle!
Turn 79, 900 BC: Guangzhou will grow to size 3 on the next turn.
Turn 79, 900 BC: Julius Caesar has founded Antium in a distant land.

Turn 80, 875 BC: Yan'an can hurry Library for 2⇴ with 9ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 25 turns.
Turn 80, 875 BC: Guangzhou has grown to size 3.
Turn 80, 875 BC: Beijing has grown to size 5.
Turn 80, 875 BC: Beijing can hurry Swordsman for 2⇴ with 36ℤ overflow, 4ℴ added to the treasury, and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 80, 875 BC: You are the worst enemy of Roosevelt.
Turn 80, 875 BC: The borders of Beijing are about to expand.

You may wish to copy it to Notepad for reference when you write your turn set post. It includes any entries you added with the in-game Chat facility

Link to following turnset.

 

[WastinTime]

Alpha: good news. Now we have to get Pleased Toku (unless someone else beats him to it)

 

[WastinTime]

Yes, that's right, as long as we don't put any into the 2 gift cities, then we can gift them to Tokugawa for +3 diplo(Liberate)

Where are these 2 cities going to be? If we put one on east-dyes, we can grow it faster on the cow tile.
The other can go on the silk and grow on the rice(farmed or not).

Are we sure the liberate bonus works if he is off-continent? I think it does.
And you all are aware that the city has to be closer to his capital than anyone else's.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Where are these 2 cities going to be? If we put one on east-dyes, we can grow it faster on the cow tile.
The other can go on the silk and grow on the rice(farmed or not).

Are we sure the liberate bonus works if he is off-continent? I think it does.
And you all are aware that the city has to be closer to his capital than anyone else's.

I think if we get a religion spread in between turns, we lose the chance for (Liberate)
We have to give the city away right away.

Which 2 cities spots?
It depends on our goals.

If we want Japan to tech as fast as possible, probably the fish east of his capital and the hill north of his capital.
The most food and the most coast tiles.
Probably the fish spot first, and then the north spot last.

If we want to put the dagger into Japan as soon as he techs Alpha for us, then 1 city spot that will grow to Size 2 fastest (Cow + Dye coastline city?) and 1 that will be Japan's final resting place.
In this case, we don't want any cities on any hilltops.
We can capture the fast to Size 2 city, his capital, and leave him 1 bitter city.
Probably the 2nd city on the west end of his island is most useless spot.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Manchou complete a library?

 

[WastinTime]

I think if we get a religion spread in between turns, we lose the chance for (Liberate)

I didn't think the window to liberate was that small.

 

[Kaitzilla]

As near as I can tell from moving the slider around, we are getting 3.5% more research bonus on Horseback Riding than we should.
There are 8 AI, so 30% bonus / 8AI = 3.75% each AI that know Horseback Riding.

Spoiler :

14 * 1.2 for knowing Animal Husbandry * 22 turns to complete HBR = 369
That is 10 short of the 379 that Horseback Riding requires, so we must be getting a small hidden bonus from an AI we've met knowing HBR.

So 1 AI currently knows Horseback Riding?
It doesn't seem to be Tokugawa, his Power Graph didn't spike after he got Iron Working.

Bbp's testing indicated the Romans sometimes teched it right after Iron Working.
It wouldn't surprise me if it was the Germans or Russia.


Should we tech Horseback Riding as our 1st tech?
Trading for it won't be easy since the AI aren't Mansa.
We won't be able to start moving towards stealing it until we get Alphabet and Spies, and know who to put slider on.

To be truly decisive after getting Alphabet, we could use a Great Spy infiltration and a City gift and a whipped Spy all at the same time to steal HBR from whichever civ on earth has it in a single turn, but we'd be stuck with 3000 against that AI for the rest of the game.
I don't think any AI has 4 cities yet.


Also, Bismark with -25% cost Workers is the AI most likely to be roading east across the continent since he still owns Tsing.

Bomber support from Rome can help take Bismark's capital, and then Bomber support from Berlin can help take Rome and Paris.

Spoiler :

France, Germany, and Russia all have Iron for making Swords + Spears, so Horseback Archer rush won't be painless.
But don't forget, we can 2 pop whip 2/50 Horseback Riders!
Kremlin so strong.

Wastin's rush plan feels awfully appealing, even if we only choose to do a slower version of it to meet other goals.
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/sgotm-25-home-slices.626796/page-41#post-15044948

 

[babybluepants]

No AI currently knows two techs. It is possible that one of them teched HBR instead of IW, but that would be surprising.