[BTS] SGOTM 25 - Map Maker needed

[WastinTime]

There are good reasons why hardly anyone plays advanced starts..
it's not feeling like the game we like anymore when you start in an editor.

I can understand people not playing this way normally cus who is gonna respect your game when you start with an extra settler or worker.
However, XotM's are the perfect place to tinker with this.

Gotms and SGotMs constantly fiddle with
1) visibility of starting area
2) starting units
3) starting techs
4) pre-built improvements
etc.

Seems to me it would feel like any other XotM.
We're just letting the teams decide what they think is more important to start with. (kinda like where to settle, what to research, what to build)
Now you have to decide if you want to unfog some tiles to see where you want city#2.
You'd actually be exploring the map on turn 0! among other unusual-ness.
I think it has the potential to be one of the best or most fun twists ever. My optimistic view anyway.

Another neat affect is that it will accelerate into the game. Maybe the scenario would play deeper into the tech tree? The AI would have to get beefed up I suppose.

I'm always looking for a fresh new way to play this game after 10+ years.

 

[LowtherCastle]

There are good reasons why hardly anyone plays advanced starts..
it's not feeling like the game we like anymore when you start in an editor.

No kidding. Like starting in WB and giving yourself a million gold.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I can understand people not playing this way normally cus who is gonna respect your game when you start with an extra settler or worker.
However, XotM's are the perfect place to tinker with this.

Gotms and SGotMs constantly fiddle with
1) visibility of starting area
2) starting units
3) starting techs
4) pre-built improvements
etc.

Seems to me it would feel like any other XotM.
We're just letting the teams decide what they think is more important to start with. (kinda like where to settle, what to research, what to build)
Now you have to decide if you want to unfog some tiles to see where you want city#2.
You'd actually be exploring the map on turn 0! among other unusual-ness.
I think it has the potential to be one of the best or most fun twists ever. My optimistic view anyway.

Another neat affect is that it will accelerate into the game. Maybe the scenario would play deeper into the tech tree? The AI would have to get beefed up I suppose.

I'm always looking for a fresh new way to play this game after 10+ years.

No probs for BOTM for sure. For SGOTM, yikes. Reason being, SGOTM is not easy to make a good competition between teams, and like Pangaea said, hard for the mapmaker to test adequately to be confident it isn't a trivialized game or something. Like one team wins on t37 with a trick and others play to t178. Would we really learn something about the game we usually play, with that?

I'm not protesting it, just saying it would definitely be a challenge for the mapmaker, who fortunately for us take a lot of pride in what they do.

 

[Fippy]

I'm always looking for a fresh new way to play this game after 10+ years.

Me too
But i think advanced starts are the wrong way, buying stuff like settlers for "points" goes against the empire building gameplay of Civ.

New ideas are good, and we are getting plenty of them from our great mapmakers (last game was loads of fun, right?).
But some basics i would keep untouched.
It's still a big step from getting & playing tinkered maps towards doing that yourself as player.

 

[sossos]

Thank you folks for the creative ideas. I thought that I had some crazy thoughts, but it seems that 50% of them have been revealed by you.

If I have been approved as the map maker, the game may be designed with the general guidelines below.
1. A leader who's never played before
2. The game scenario will be linked with history events which really happened in the civilization of homo sapiens. You'll be advantageous if you leaned that history before.
3. More game elements will be included which are not normally played in a standard game with ancient start. (For example, a modern war)
4. It will be a deity game but playable for monarchy-level players
5. The game won't be too lengthy if it's played in the optimal way.

The problem is: I never created a map before for XOTMs. Who can coach me? Or where can I find the learning material? I hope that I can finish the design by next week end and post it here, so I need some help.

 

[leif erikson]

Please check you Inbox (conversations) tab.

 

[Gumbolt]

The key is game testing once you have created the map. Don't just let a deity player test it. You need people at Monarch to immortal.

The game should always be winnable for all teams. RNG where one Ai takes over a map could kill a teams game. Seen it all before on Goldmember game (Huge stacks from the non Ai element nearly killed PR's game), Toku game, (The English Ai steam rolled map in one case with a 20+ stack of redcoats.). Not forgetting the recent Roman game where only 2 teams actually won the map. Huge stacks from Celts and other AI.

Key is to make the map a challenge but fun. The challenge should be to compete against other teams. Not to survive the AI.

Not against a deity game but it may scare some new players off. You will need some new players here to get 4-6 teams.

 

[Deckhand]

^ agree
in a previous discussion, deity was thought to be more impacted by RNG.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Late to the discussion and delighted we have a mapmaker.

I agree Deity is not a good idea as it scares people off, would prefer no higher than Emperor - you can always give the AIs extra units / techs etc if required.

Love the No Slavery idea, also what about something Realms Beyond did years ago - each team can select one tech from anywhere on the Tech tree, imagine the discussions about that one!

 

[sossos]

@Gumbolt @NobleZarkon

As long as your team can win a monarchy game of SGOTM, you can win this deity game. I can't talk about details as it needs to be explored by players, but I can say that the map is heavily cooked and the winning condition is flexible to all players.

@Deckhand @Gumbolt

In regards to the rating, I think the impact of rating has been minimized in this game because it's not a game started with a settler.

Don't just let a deity player test it. You need people at Monarch to immortal.

I think this makes sense. I've posted the WB save in the confidential forum for testing.

Spoiler Inputs collected :

Kaitzilla

barbs with stealth destroyers
freedom-themed map
No slavery ever
First team to win the game while having the Versaille, Statue of Liberty, and the Eiffel Tower World Wonders
coastal Forts
Gold Laurel team starts on Turn 20.
Silver Laurel team starts on Turn 10.
Bronze Laurel team starts on Turn 5.

Fippy

fine tuning gp generation vs. slavery

LowertheCastle

some nice fish lake tiles next to the capital with a barb submarine beneath the surface
no workers built
pre-settled the capital and given it a lh

Pangaea

start with a civic, for instance emancipation

WastinTime

advanced start(sg10)

NobleZarkon

each team can select one tech from anywhere on the Tech tree

 

[Noble Zarkon]

As long as your team can win a monarchy game of SGOTM, you can win this deity game.

Sorry that's not the point - the simple fact is announcing it is Deity will put a number of players off and numbers are already low. I strongly encourage you to reconsider this aspect of the game.

Thanks!

 

[Rusten]

I think you should trust the mapmaker. Sossos is an experienced player, which means that I'm less worried about random factors and settings than I would be if the mapmaker was a less "serious" civ player with less knowledge of mechanics.
Have some faith! Let him make the map that he wants to make, and don't stress about the difficulty level.

 

[sossos]

Sorry that's not the point - the simple fact is announcing it is Deity will put a number of players off and numbers are already low. I strongly encourage you to reconsider this aspect of the game.

Thanks!

I will announce it as a monarchy game and it's truly at that level.
You may know that most HOF deity game record can be easily won by monarchy players, simply because the map/leader is not randomly picked.

 

[Deckhand]

I think you should trust the mapmaker. Sossos is an experienced player, which means that I'm less worried about random factors and settings than I would be if the mapmaker was a less "serious" civ player with less knowledge of mechanics.
Have some faith! Let him make the map that he wants to make, and don't stress about the difficulty level.

Suggest difficulty is listed something like: Deity - but plays as Monarch

 

[Noble Zarkon]

You may know that most HOF deity game record can be easily won by monarchy players, simply because the map/leader is not randomly picked.

Sorry don't agree with that at all.

I trust you that this map will play more like Monarch but I think the Deity label will scare people off regardless. Anyway I've said my piece and will shut up now, I'll still sign up and play but will be interested to see what the numbers are like.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Sorry don't agree with that at all.

I trust you that this map will play more like Monarch but I think the Deity label will scare people off regardless. Anyway I've said my piece and will shut up now, I'll still sign up and play but will be interested to see what the numbers are like.

I suppose after only six deity level players sign up, sossos can change the label... To me, your point is, why risk losing more players? I happen to agree.

 

[Gumbolt]

How about a lowest score game wins. So the objective is to get gold and the wooden spoon. There could also be a condition to win by x date. We don't want a lot of 2050 religious victories. You could also specify that teams that don't finish by that date would be placed after teams that met all objectives.

 

[Fippy]

I would remind that most of us left here in sgotm just want to play normal Civ, with interesting added goals like those we had last game.

Imo sgotm 22 with Rome and restrictions that almost made teams give up was an example why too strange setups will probably fail.
Why do we need deity if it plays like Monarch, would that mean a very easy game otherwise?
Why are "barbs with stealth destroyers" seriously listed in input collection

We should be careful with those extravagant ideas, what looks fun at first might only be so for 5 minutes when playing, but sgotm lasts several months.
And those testing maps are not actually playing the game.

 

[Pangaea]

Another idea, that hopefully hasn't been done before.

Found or control all 7 corporate headquarters.

Since you need a bunch of GPs for that (unless you capture them..), such a goal could be tricky in combination with bulbing or golden age priorities, and the game should go on for a while.

 

[sossos]

Basically deity AIs can help expedite the global teching speed, and it's the main purpose to bring them in. Meanwhile, there will be 8 AIs instead of 6 for the same purpose. I hope there will be renaissance, industrial or even modern wars.

But why don't we start from renaissance? It can be easily understood when the game scenario is published.

Anyway, if there's not enough participants, it doesn't matter to me to change my role from a map maker to a player.