On the surface, it appears like a 100% peaceful game, but I suspect that a couple of the best city sites are occupied, so conquer and replace the city might be a strategy. (It's OCC and we have 7 settlers)
Mitch:
It's been a while since I've played an OCC game. Of course you can't build settlers but are there any other "hidden" rules? For example, is it even possible to win Culture in an OCC game? Are there other aspects of the game that are different for OCC?
WT:
pre-game disc covers most of it. Oxford w/ 1 university, same for Globe, cathedrals, etc.
Cities autoraze if culture flipped for captured... which makes Espionage win impossible, Domination impossible. Culture works because we have the 3 cities.
Seems like a religious win or Diplo this time.
LC:
Religious wins can be blink-of-the-eye fast. Requires what?
Finding all ais
Quick AP
Strategic religion spread
?
WT:
We'll have plenty of time. We have a lot of tech to do. Corporations, etc. are all required.
I feel like we need to work with the AI as research partners. Since we can't conquer a city, all we get is raze-gold for our effort. If we don't need nearby city sites, I'm thinking no army. Which makes me think (dream about?) STRIKE economy in late game, but probably not.
We definitely need to find food and do a GP plan for bulbing.
Mitch:
OK, so we do have to go super far into the tech tree so really, all options are on the table for VC other than Space and Domination, right? The further into the game you go, the more challenging it can be for Diplo and Religious (i.e. more things can go wrong the longer you let them progress). If we do plan to go this route, we'll have to pick the UN/AP city early so we don't build another wonder in it.
We should agree on the proposed capital location and then do the T0 settler moves for the other 6 to see if we find something that might change our mind about where to settle our capital. My gut says that our first city should be high in commerce and it should be our Scientist city since we have to tech so much. The SIP location on the PH with 2 gems, wine, sheep and rice looks like a decent capital. The only drawback is that it's not coastal but who cares since we can settle the others in coastal locations if required. There is also a nice coastal PH SIP city with crab, deer and 3 furs.
We also have to figure out how many cities to settle early (1 to 3 I guess) and how many settlers we should use to scout the map. No barbs so we should be safe. How likely is an AI to DOW and snag one of our wandering settlers early in the game?
We should also pick our desired Great Wonder for each city which will affect our tech path if we want to go for one of the early ones.
Do we want the Oracle? Do we want the Mids? I think the Great Library is a good choice for the Scientist city.
We need a Lab which has us researching all the way to Superconductors.
For Spy, the only Great Wonders that generate GPPs are The Great Wall (Masonry), The Kremlin (Communism) and The Pentagon (Assembly Line). The GW won't be too useful with no barbs so spending early hammers on that without stone sounds bad. I guess that leaves The Kremlin since we don't need to tech AL (which requires Steam Power; not on the Superconductor beeline).
For Engineer, the Great wonders are Cristo Redentor (Radio), The Hagia Sophia (Theology), The Hanging Gardens (Math), The Pyramids (Masonry), The Three Gorges Dam (Plastics). Using 500 early hammers on the Mids without stone is an expensive proposition but may be the best option? Not sure about this though. We don't have to build settlers or a big army early so many the Mids are a good use of early hammers???
The Heroic Epic requires a lvl 4 unit so we will have to do a bit of fighting to ensure we get this.
We have a lot more choices for Prophet, Artist, Merchant and Scientist but we should probably pick an ideal wonder for each with a backup plan.
As WT said, we should lay out our intended tech path and GP bulbing plan to speed that along.
WT:
One thing you may have missed is that we are not allowed to build more than those 6 wonders
.
So, if for example we build Oracle, we CANNOT build AP (prophet wonder) which may or may not throw a wrench in our religious victory.
U.N. is a merchant wonder, but if we build Eiffel tower (Radio, also merchant) then we don't have to research MassMedia (broadcast tower unlocked) Someone should confirm Eiffel gives towers without MassMedia. Wouldn't skipping MM shorten the critical path?
Since we need Intel Agency anyway, we probably go State Prop/Kremlin. that locks in the spy wonder. That means screw cottages (maybe in the capital). Use farms for GPs, then workshop.
Early Mids is probably good for our farm plan.
I mapped our minimum tech route and the only corporation we have is Cereal (Refrigeration, Merchant needed) Others would require additional tech. So we can use the free GM at Econ. Nice.
Heroic Epic with no fighting. It's just 10xp right?
rax + stable + West Point is 9xp
Then either Vassalage? or Theocracy? Hmm. not ideal to switch civics.
Did I forget something? Can't get a GG.
Oh right!
Boudica is charismatic!
So now I don't think we even need the stable. Just 7xp.
Mitch:
Nice work on the Heroic Epic dilemma. However, we shouldn't completely rule out fighting, should we? In general if one AI is causing one of our tech trading partners to stagnate in development due to lack of land, we might want a joint war (gives +diplo points for shared war) to liberate that land for our chosen tech partner. That's a decision we can make later in the game but we shouldn't completely rule out wars.
I did notice that we can only build one WW in each city. That is why I was suggesting we pick an intended WW for each of the 6 cites so that we can plan accordingly.
Should we agree on an tentative settling order? For example, I doubt that we can afford to settle all 6 so I think if we're going Mids, we'd settle Science (capital?) and Engineer early. Maybe we don't want the Oracle if we want to keep the Religious VC on the table so we could settle that one later. I guess plans will change as the game develops but we can likely put a tentative WW plan in place now and adjust accordingly.
If we're going State Property and the Kremlin, are we on a Communism beeline (more or less) at the start of the game?
Which Artist, Merchant and Prophet wonders should we target that are on the Superconductors tech path?
WT:
artist: maybe MoM or Parth
Merch: Eiffel
Prophet : AP -- I think we we
must build it, right? Even if the AI builds it in our religion, we would likely not be the other candidate. (unless we beat down everyone which I don't wanna do) I'd really like to pick a different VC.
The prophet city
must be coastal (Moai), so if we don't go AP and want Oracle, then we will likely put the prophet city SIP-west. And probably the capital (other SIP) = Great Library.
Mitch:
Hmmm... You're thinking that we must build the AP more as a defensive strategy to avoid losing a Religious VC to the AI? That sucks for a few reasons. First, the AP is not typically on the fastest tech path since we rely our our tech partners to research the religious part of the tech tree. Second, to get the AP typically takes some focus because the AI doesn't trade those techs early so we'll have to self-research a lot of un-useful techs. Is there any way we can totally bypass the AP all of those techs until we can get them in trade? That means that we're committing to some other VC (likely Diplo, yes?)
What made you pick Eiffel? Just because it's late game and on our tech path? The GLH is always nice but I'm not sure it will pay off with only 7 cities with some of them not even coastal.
Good point on Prophet being coastal.
Do you like the two PH SIP spots as our first two cities as well (pending what we find on T0 exploration)? Would settling both cities on T0 cripple us too much? I recall another xOTM where we started with settlers and I settled 2 or 3 on T0 and never pulled myself out of the hole. It was my first Deity game so that could have had something to do with it too.
If I have time tomorrow, I'll set up a test game (if I can remember how to do it) so we can play around with it to see the impacts of settling our cities at different stages of the game.
LC:
What’s our research engine?
WT:
You musta missed my Eiffel thoughts ^^
Test game is probably necessary to figure out the settling. I'd
really like to settle at least 2 cities. We've got the commerce tiles to dig out of a hole, but that test game will show if we need an early tech. Like if we didn't have mining or our food techs .
Mitch:
OK, I have a test save. I hadn't noticed before but the gems are junglified.
I think it's accurate but feel free to point out any changes.
WT:
Ugh. Jungled gems. That changes everything. There is no reason to settle a city early with only 2 tiles: Sheep/DryRice. And, if that city is not our capital then it has zero tiles. We could really use a creative leader. The gems are not even on grass, so if worked those tiles, we can't grow.
I forgot what this map looks like. Ice Age is brutal. Not very farm-able.
Mitch:
Right. The tech pace is going to be very slow. And aren't the AI nerfed even more than normal since they can't adapt to an ice age map that well?
LC:
What sort of map is Ice Age? Does it have world wrap? Islands/ continents?
GLH could be useful if we don’t go to war. Don’t need our own offshore three cities. Just lots of AI trade routes. Auto 2 coin anyway.
Maybe we can settle the (coastal?) plains hill to get both gems tiles.
I’m thinking coastal tiles might be our best source Of commerce, at least early on. GLH <?> Colossus for 7 cities?
Mitch:
Here is a look at buildings and required techs for each.
Superconductors plus Industrialism provide the full tech path. Then we just have to research Radio only (for Eiffel) or Radio plus MM (for Broadcast Towers). Having to research MM may not be a huge issue if we determine that Diplo will be better than Religious.
Benefits of Diplo:
MM isn't a super expensive tech
Allows us to skip self-researching a bunch of useless religious techs that we can get otherwise via trade.
Allows us to build a more useful Great Wonder in Merchant (GLH?)
WT:
We are not allowed to build 2 merchant wonders.
I like how you're thinking with coastal tiles. But I'm not so interested in them for 2c early commerce, the value I'm seeing is 2f. Some of our cities will have no way to grow...unless we farm a lot of plains.
Ice Age can be configured lots of ways. Plus it's 'edited'
Mitch:
GLH and Colossus both provide GM points so we'd have to pick one or the other. WT was leaning toward Eiffel for the GM wonder though. I'm not sure which is better but it would be nice to build a wonder that would benefit our game early like GLH or Colossus.
WT:
Yes, the 2f is the key point on the coastal tiles.
The GW limit us why I asked GLH or Colossus? For 7 cities. But maybe Eiffel is even greater. Will hammer production afford Eiffel?!
Hammer economy with build research?
LC:
I’m not sure a specialist evonomy with Mids works here. Requires lots of food.
WT:
You're probably right about just doing MM. We don't want to have to build the AP early and tech Theo, etc. And it also prevents us from doing Oracle and forces us to do Eiffel.
The problem with early wonders like GLH and Oracle is, like LC said, dirty gene pool.
With the food on this map, I wonder how hard it's going to be to get GPs. Maybe the mapmaker is trying to get us to do something other than slavery and GS bulbing.
WT:
a.k.a. STRIKE economy
LC:
Elaborate please.
Mitch:
True. The value of the Mids is reduced without food. Plus, it takes a ton of effort, especially with no stone, to build the 'Mids and it's easy to lose that race. Maybe we should target the HG for Engineer? The other options aren't that great: Cristo Redentor (Radio), The Hagia Sophia (Theology), The Three Gorges Dam (Plastics).
WT:
I guess State Prop/workshops doesn't play well without grass, so right now, we don't see that. Scratch that idea.
I looked a couple test maps and they seem to have about 3 corn, 3 wheat and 1-2 rice on the entire map!
Realistically, STRIKE probably won't work out either because you need a lot of cities with a lot of expenses. I just like to dream about it. But yeah, we can try to make wonder gold and build research. Just not seeing a lot of workshoppable tiles for that.
LC:
Synergies
SpecE: Glib+Ox, Parth, Mids (Rep), Merc
SpyE: no war, TRs, requires holy city
HammerE: build research, build wonders
WT:
That coastal city has +7 food. We can get 6 specialist in there (at -3 food) (in Merc)
LC:
How much of our late tech path do AIs prioritize?
Will Golden ages be useful? At whst point?
WT:
I imagine a GAge will be used for the GP plan. Not sure we can afford 2 and whether we need MoM or just forget GAges. It's going to be a frustratingly slow game. Look how long it's taken just to start! 2 years.
Mitch:
With only 7 cities and crap food, we won't be generating many organic hammers.
Spy Economy requires the AI to tech quickly. Will they on this map? I'm not sure.
Like WT said, I think this is just going to be a painfully slow game.
Do you see this as our Science city then? Other than this one site, I don't see any other cities that I'd want to settle on T0, does anyone else?
WT:
I was thinking sheep + rice was only +3 food, but it's +5 and with irrigation +6. That's a good city on ice age. We can even get up to 8 specialists
there (at -4 fpt) (in Merc) (with Great Lib)
We
must make that our capital (I wanted a more central city anyway) and we're gonna need Myst + monument
ASAP for the coastal city. I'd hate to move that settler 1S and lose 2 fur and lose the PH and fresh water just because we can't pop borders. (would love Creative leader)
lol. I settled and we start at -1 gpt due to unit supply so we'll have to leave some settlers home.
Oh, but if we settle 2 cities, there's no supply cost (but -3 for 2 cities. ouch) and they don't get trade routes with each other. Our cities are not connected until culture touches (monument again) or we road. Monument is faster.
Mitch:
OK, I tried a test.
T0: Science on PH with rice and Sheep, build worker. City #2 on PH with Furs and Cow; build worker. -3 GPT. Set slider to 0%.
T4: Research AH at 100%, 10 turns, 32 gold
T12: City 2 finishes worker, AH still 2 turns away so worker is idle for 2 turns.
T13: Science finishes worker, worker walks to sheep.
T14: AH done; we see horses. Both workers pasture.
Since the worker from City 2 sits idle for 2 turns, I think we should settle City #2 on turn 2 so it arrives JIT. That might even pull in AH by a turn but I don't think so.
Interestingly, after finishing the worker, there is nothing useful to build. We can build a WB but for exploring but it won't be able to net the crabs for many turns. We can build warrior MPs, Scouts, more workers or barracks, none of which are that exciting.
AH is a key worker tech for our cities so I think it HAS to be first, right?
Our cities are not connected via TR even though they are both connected to the river. So we need Sailing or TW to connect them. The workers will run out of things to improve quickly so I guess we'd just build the roads and research Mysticism next for the monument?
Settling a third city puts us at -6 GPT with little benefit to tech pace so until we can connect City #3 to our other 2, I'm not sure how quickly we should settle it unless we find a perfect spot for it.
EDIT: xpost with WT's last post.
Test #2:
T0: Science on PH with rice and Sheep, build worker.100% research on AH
T2: City #2 on PH with Furs and Cow; build worker. Set slider to 0%.
T5: Research AH at 100%, 8 turns, 24 gold
T13: AH done; we see horses. Science finishes worker, worker walks to sheep.
T14: City 2 finishes worker. Both workers pasture.
So we start the pastures on the same turn as test #1 but we learn AH 1 turn sooner which lets us put one extra turn of commerce into gold.
)
, 100% vs. melee (instead of 50%) and no copper)
our 2nd city won't get nearly as much 
per turn and peaceful teching without many wars in the world.
, then that GM is like +6
