[BTS] SGOTM 26 - Home Slices

[LowtherCastle]

Mainly just Cow City and Whale City missing a Granary.
Not too much pain, I think Wastintime's idea is better than my PPP now.



1 less chop? hmm

T77 Oracle has 54/150
T77 Whip Dun, give away stone, work Stone + Tundraforest
T78 Oracle chop forest work Stone + Crab
T79 Oracle has 135/150 whip complete

Yes, that would save 1 forest.

An Oracle 1whip is 15h???

We already have T 79 with a mostly full granary. Better than a forest if you ask me.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I have checked WastinTime's suggestion to ignore Granary and Deer in Cow City starting on T55, and it speeds up our teching in the short and medium term quite nicely! .

Are you still whipping the wb?

@MMT55

Cows will become unhappy next turn.

My best solution:
T55 work 3 furs, no deer
T56 switch 1h-fur to deer, Turn On Avoid Growth!
T57 Turn Off Avoid Growth!

We gain 1f6g.

I think a T 79 Oracle is dubious at best. T 75 is far better. We should do everything we can to speed our tech up.

 

[WastinTime]

Can't really think of anything to whip with 3 population in Canal on T71 that would overflow 24 base

The dun might be able to do it, but I'd probably rather whip 2 pop and have the lighthouse.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Stone is a multiplier only for Christian and Jewish cathedrals. Marble only for Hindu and Islam. Likely to be a problem.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Pillage Resource Solution 2

Road plainshillfur (T57) + Cows3n2w (T60). Done.

Good till 500 in Cows.

 

[WastinTime]

Pillage Resource Solution 2

Road plainshillfur (T57) + Cows3n2w (T60). Done.

Good till 500 in Cows.

I typed the exact same message yesterday and then didn't send it because we likely don't want to go without +1 from fur.

 

[Mitchum]

I think a T 79 Oracle is dubious at best. T 75 is far better. We should do everything we can to speed our tech up.

How critical is the CS slingshot to our game? In other words, if we don't get it, are we screwed? If so, then I agree that we might need to sacrifice city development for increased research speed. Keep in mind that whipping max OF into stone-enhanced wonders improves both city development and research speed so I'm not saying don't whip. But it might mean working high-commerce tiles (e.g. furs and silver) rather than high-food tiles.

We have several solutions for the Oracle, now we just have to tech as quickly as possible (assuming fail gold at key times??) and align the completion of the Oracle with the completion of CoL/Math.

Does bulbing Math help at all? Could we even get a GS in time to make it worthwhile? EDIT: Sucks to "waste" an early GS on Math but if the CS sling is make-or-break...

 

[WastinTime]

Our game doesn't depend on Oracle. Oracle could get built next turn for all we know. It's a very good thing to trade 150h for 1200+ , so we want to make sure that if any team could get it, we also get it. I don't feel that we took any detours (like IW,) so other teams would have a hard time getting CS slingshot if we miss it. Of course there's that random factor of the AI building it or not.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Ok, I think I got it.

We can indeed pull the Oracle all the way forward to T75 with 2 math chops. Thanks LowtherCastle
The key is to get Dun from 24/50 to 36/50 on T70 by working all hammer tiles and working Oracle all other times.

Spoiler :

I went with the traditional plan of T72 Great Wall, and with Stonehenge gold landing on T72 (116 from Science City and 110 from Cow City) + The Great Wall gold starting to land on T73, we have plentiful and can finish Code of Laws fast enough to get T79 Oracle.
This can be pushed earlier by 1 or maybe even 2 turns with Stonehenge gold earlier than T72, so I think the Dun trick in Profit City + 2 chops is vital and should be planned on.
Stonehenge earlier than T72 is very, very likely so T79 Oracle is just too slow.
So Masonry by T58 to start Dun is required.

Spoiler :

Now, how can we push Code of Laws even earlier?
I think the trick is putting a 2nd 10 chop into The Great Wall in Canal City on T68, and then whipping The Great Wall complete on T69 instead of a Lighthouse.
This means we can only add to Great Wall in other cities on T64, T65, T66, and T67.

T63 - whip overflow and chop from Shepherd lands in Science City
T64 - Overflow and chop lands in Great Wall in Canal City
T65 - Great Wall builds naturally in capital
T66 - whip overflow from Granary chop lands in Silver City
This small amount of gold (36) lands T70, so it is crucial unless we are actively spending Stonehenge gold.
T67 - 2 chops land in Cow City, both of the tundraforests (this requires Shepherd to skip roading fur, but the northern Silver City Worker can do it T69)
All 3 remaining forests in Cow City on plains forests
T68 - 10 chop lands in Great Wall in Canal City
T69 - 2-pop whip Great Wall complete in Canal City

Getting our Great Wall 3 turns earlier is worth it even if it is only 250 instead of 350

=========================

We could let Whale City complete Monument 4 turns later on Turn 68 instead of Turn 64 if we choose to chop for Great Wall on T66 in Silver City?
Either +10(+20) from outside Silver City borders or +20(+40) from inside the big fat cross.

Another thought is 1-pop whipping Great Wall in Science City for +30 past the 150 maximum on T69.

Also, I think doing the 1-pop whip Dun trick in Cow City (32/50) the same turn we do it in Profit City to get a 50 raw overflow to get +100 in Pyramids might be worth doing.
Add in +180 from 3 chops in BFC and Pyramids City is over half way to Mids.

I'll try to hammer out the micro now.
Will force Stonehenge complete on T60 and see how much we really need from Great Wall.

We might need the extra +70 from silver city chop and Science Great Wall Whip if we can't work Stonehenge from T63 to T68 if it was already completed earlier (+116 from Science City only)
Will have to make a decision on T61 about Silver City chop.

 

[WastinTime]

So you're going to build the Dun without stone?

And we only whip GW 69 if we don't have Henge gold, right? Getting some sort of gold is certainly the best way to tech faster. It'd be nice if we could just watch SB build Henge.

I could see 1 whip GW in Science depending on the city size and what's coming. like Library

 

[Kaitzilla]

So you're going to build the Dun without stone?

And we only whip GW 69 if we don't have Henge gold, right? Getting some sort of gold is certainly the best way to tech faster. It'd be nice if we could just watch SB build Henge.

I could see 1 whip GW in Science depending on the city size and what's coming. like Library

Ya, starting Dun T58 means we can chop Oracle complete on T75, T76, T77, T78, or T79 as needed.

GW 69 without Henge ? Hmm
Might make sense to delay it 1 turn to try to get more .
I'll have to check the numbers.

 

[WastinTime]

Getting some sort of gold is certainly the best way to tech faster.

The 2nd way to tech faster (once we get enough gold) is to settle #7. That city gives +5 raw bpt.
Where did we decide? and when will #7 get there?

If we do Silver then the city can quickly, and temporarily, get up to +8

 

[WastinTime]

Let's say SH/GW/Mids gold takes us to turn 100.
Moai can give as much as ~1375g, but that is really stretching it and includes city #7. (275 x 5).
Actually, IIRC, there's something special (or i should say especially bad) about whipping Moai, so more likely:
240 x 5 = 1200g.

Anyway, I know I'm getting ahead, but what failgold wonder is next?
I assume we'll rush Oxford and get no failgold there.

Maybe we manage to get Marble by ~T120?
Yeah, I suppose we work GLib, NatEpic, and we still have an artist wonder to do.

Tech path is something like: IW, (Currency? skip? no one to trade with). Paper, Edu (GS bulb ~T110?), Aes?, Lit.? Gunpowder?

 

[Mitchum]

Anyway, I know I'm getting ahead, but what failgold wonder is next?

Looking at early-ish stone-enhanced wonders:
Hanging Gardens (Math - requires aquaduct which we may want in some cities)
Chichen Itza (CoL)
Notre Dame (Engineering)
Angkor Wat (Philosophy)
University of Sankor (Paper)
Spiral Minaret (Divine Right)
Oxford (Education - we might be able to fit in a few extra Wonder Bread hammers in a city or two before we finish it; this is the next wonder after 'Mids where we can time its completion)

I didn't go beyond this. I'm not sure any wonders after Education will actually get built by the AI in a timeframe that helps us but I'm not sure; depends on how liberal we are with tech trading/gifting.

If we get Marble, many other options open up but I'm not holding my breath. Is T120 when our culture would get the marble at Profit?

 

[MirrorGuard]

Is T120 when our culture would get the marble at Profit?

Yes. After BC1000/T75 1 turn=25 years. Oracle needs 40 turns to double its culture output. That will be a total of 40*(8+1*2)=400 culture, assuming no lib +2 culture monument. Before Oracle there is 25+ culture in deposit. So it's about 40+4 turns to save 500 after Oracle.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Actually, IIRC, there's something special (or i should say especially bad) about whipping Moai

Moai whips are * 1/2, canceling out the stone bonus.

Spoiler Rush costs for Wonders :

Just looked again. It's different for different wonders (world and national) in BtS . The early wonders are still 1/2 world 2/3 national, but:

Wall Street 1/2
IW 1/2
West point 1/2
Rushmore 1/2
Red cross 1/2
Kremlin 1/3
Eiffel 1/3
Liberty 1/3
Broadway 1/3
Rock'n'Roll 1/3
Hollywood 1/3
Three Gorges 1/3
Pentagon 1/3
UN 1/4
Space Elevator 1/4
Moai 1/2
Apostolic Palace 1/4

Dammit! I only checked Versailles and Hermitage . I had no idea that the rush cost varied! Thanks

Just to complete the list:

Versailles 1/2
Forgotten Palace 2/3
Hermitage 2/3
National Park 2/3

LC - There are two factors affecting rushing

Without (A) or with (B) any hammers invested
Without (1) Kremlin or with (2) Kremlin

A1 is then without hammers invested and without Kremlin
A2 is then without hammers invested and with Kremlin
B1 is then with hammers invested and without Kremlin
B2 is then with hammers invested and with Kremlin

Each pop provides base hammers, just as hammers from tiles are considered base hammers.

When rushing a building without hammers and without Kremlin (A1) you get 20 hammers / population.
When rushing a building without hammers and with Kremlin (A2) you get 30 hammers / population.
When rushing a building with hammers and without Kremlin (B1) you get 30 hammers / population.
When rushing a building with hammers and with Kremlin (B2) you get 45 hammers / population.

These base hammers are further modified when you rush a wonder. The modifier could either be

2/3 (Forgotten Palace)
1/2 (Red Cross)
1/3 (Broadway)
1/4 (UN)

Base hammers for wonders then range from 5 to 30.

Example: Poprush Red Cross without hammers and with Kremlin, and no production bonus
1 pop = 30 * 1/2 = 15 hammers. Red Cross costs 600 hammers => 40 nurses are distributed among the world to repair the war damage we produce

The modified base hammers are then multiplied with the production bonus in the city.

Example: Above Red Cross is rushed without hammers and with Kremling (as above), but the city has a forge, factory, and power. Bonus = 100%.
1 pop = 30 * 1/2 * 200% = 30 hammers. Only 20 nurses are sent.

Worst rush case is then rushing UN without any hammers and without Kremlin in a city with no production bonus:
1 pop = 20 * 1/4 = 5 hammers. It then takes 200 pop to make peace in the world.
Best rush case is National Park in a capital with IW, factory, powerplant, while running bureaucracy, organized religion and state property (bonus 25 + 25 + 50 + 100 + 50 + 25 + 10 = 285 %) with Kremlin and hammers invested:
1 pop = 45 * 2/3 * 385% = 115 hammers

 

[WastinTime]

Oxford (Education - we might be able to fit in a few extra Wonder Bread hammers in a city or two before we finish it;

The reason that is unlikely is because said city would need to whip a university, but maybe the OF from that goes in Oxford.
It's usually just worth it to have Oxford online than delay it for failgold. We'll see.

Moai whips are * 1/2, canceling out the stone bonus.

Yes, and the other national wonders are not I think (those list omitted NatEpic, HeroicEpic)

Hanging Gardens (Math - requires aquaduct which we may want in some cities)
Chichen Itza (CoL)

Thx for putting together the list. Yeah, I don't see the AI completing any in a reasonable time except maybe these two ^^.

 

[Mitchum]

@Kaitzilla There are tons of ideas floating around in this thread. I hope you're able to keep them all straight because I can't. Is your current PPP the latest and greatest or are you still trying to pull it all together into a single, cohesive plan?

In intend to walk through your PPP in the test game but I want to be sure I'm working with the latest and greatest.

 

[Mitchum]

@MirrorGuard Are you wanting to get into the turnset rotation or are you still unable to play at the moment?

 

[Kaitzilla]

The results of my test are in.
I got the AI to give me the Stonehenge completed message Turn 63 and 116 arrived Turn 64.
I spent all of it in 3 turns.


Chopped the Silver City forest for +40 and 1-pop whipped Great Wall in capital for +30
Great Wall was whipped complete T69, and we got +68 on T70 and +254 on T71.

Worked max commerce tiles the whole time.
Did not whip Lighthouses in Silver City and Canal City.
Starved Whale City to get an extra 1 coin each turn.
Stopped working rice in capital to work an extra scientist.

T76 Oracle was … a short even working plainsriverfarm instead of cow in Cow City!

Spoiler :

I'm going to file T76 Oracle under theoretically possible?
T77 Oracle would let our empire develop a lot better with more
T76 Oracle also requires 21 turns of perfect micro under the Early Stonehenge Scenario.

Settling City 7 as WastinTime suggested on that turn would probably fix the problem.
Or skip the +30 Great Wall whip in capital for earlier x2 scientist and library.
Or try to get more gold by chopping a capital 24 forest into a 14/15 Warrior with 9 per turn production on Turn 74.
Or try to build Stonehenge in some city between T56 and T63 even without stone for a few extra coins.

Scenarios
Early Stonehenge - We see the "Stonehenge completed in a far away land" message between T56 and T63 and receive 116 the following turn.
Once we see the message, we cannot add more hammers or chops to a current Stonehenge build because they will vanish.
Golden Stonehenge - We see the "Stonehenge completed in a far away land" message between T64 and T66 and receive (116 + fail gold from Cow City) the following turn.
Congratulations, we got extra money and have it early enough to use it to guarantee T66 Oracle -> Civil Service
Late Stonehenge - We see the "Stonehenge completed in a far away land" message between T67 and T76 and receive (116 + fail gold from every city that worked Stonehenge) the following turn.
Oracle is delayed - This Stonehenge gold gets added onto the end of our Great Wall gold. Might be thinking about Oracle -> Currency.
Criminal Stonehenge - We see the "Stonehenge completed in a far away land" message after Turn 77 and receive our gold the following turn.
We get our gold way too late to matter for Oracle. Hopefully we delayed Great Wall completion a few turns so we could still attempt to Oracle Civil Service.

@Kaitzilla There are tons of ideas floating around in this thread. I hope you're able to keep them all straight because I can't. Is your current PPP the latest and greatest or are you still trying to pull it all together into a single, cohesive plan?

In intend to walk through your PPP in the test game but I want to be sure I'm working with the latest and greatest.

I need to write down a new PPP.
Ignore the old one!​