SGOTM6 - Xteam

[Tomoyo]

I'm thinking that we should jump our palace to Paris, as earlier said. It would eliminate flip risks, and it wouldn't affect corruption. Alternatively, we could just stay at war with France until Paris is at size two with one French Fry and one Gallic one, and has expanded borders. Then we make the Frenchy into a Frenchy clown and rush a worker.

 

[DJMGator13]

It's going to be hard to build a palace there and I'm not sure we will have enough military units to control the jump. We need to use cannons to reduce the pop pre-capture and then starve it to size 1. I don't think we're strong enough to actually siege Paris. We should probably stay at war with FRA until they are gone. To allow us to recapture it if it flips.

I'm not against Paris being our capital but a 1000 shield palace is going to be hard to handbuild that far from our core.

 

[WillowBrook]

While jumping the palace would eliminate the flip risk, there's no way to hand-build it, and the number of units needed to ensure a jump there upon abandoning our current capital (maybe 40 or 50?) would probably be enough units to ensure no flip risk. I'm no expert of flipping, but I do keep an eye on MapStat's flip risk list when playing, and I suspect that if we starve it to size one (or rush settlers or whatever), and take out the closest neighboring cities, 30 units in the city will be enough. But we'll definitely need to stay at war with France until we're sure that there's no flip risk.

And of course, we need to invade with sufficient military first. I'd like to see 50 cavs, 20 cannons, and as many conscript rifles as we can get up there before declaring.

France has been at war recently and so will have had its Golden Age already, right?

(Hey - looks like we're catching up on our spam count! Keep it up! Maybe I'll get a picture or two of Italy posted later today.)

 

[leif erikson]

While jumping the palace would eliminate the flip risk, there's no way to hand-build it, and the number of units needed to ensure a jump there upon abandoning our current capital (maybe 40 or 50?) would probably be enough units to ensure no flip risk.

I don't think that will be anywhere near enough units. I'll attach a couple of flip tables from SGOTM05. Have a look at the required garrison columns!

EDIT - This is one of the reasons I think we will have to take out France's first ring of cities as well. It is an interesting problem!

 

[leif erikson]

If you haven't read the turn log from Alan's brilliant assault on France in SGOTM05, it is worth looking at as we face France yet again. You can find it in 2 posts, Post 1 Here and Post 2 Here
In some cases he includes the flip possibilities and what he tried to do about it, besides pray, of course!

 

[DJMGator13]

We should raze and replace all other FRA cities as we take them out and probably go ICS around it as well.

@Gyathaar - in your culture games, how have you addressed this issue.

Would it be worth trying to crank up our overall culture some before going after France. If we can get ahead of them culture wise before declaring it should help reduce the flip risk.

Once Paris is size one we could join native workers to Paris to increase our influence. But a warning about that. I have had a captured Wonder city that I had starved down to 1 and repopulated with my citizens still flip in a GOTM even though it was back to nearly size 10. Can't recall the level of that GOTM but I could look it up this evening.

 

[WillowBrook]

I don't think that will be anywhere near enough units. I'll attach a couple of flip tables from SGOTM05. Have a look at the required garrison columns!

EDIT - This is one of the reasons I think we will have to take out France's first ring of cities as well. It is an interesting problem!

What size were those cities? I expect flips as we're shrinking it (all the more reason to bombard it first, and then build settlers immediately by disbanding units), but I think we'll be able to safely hold it without an outrageous number of units once it's size one and the neighboring cities are gone. I captured China's capital pretty late in the game in COTM 09 and was able to hold it safely with 20 or 25 units after starving it, IIRC, without building any culture or taking any neighboring cities (I was too close to domination at that point); my culture was ahead, but not hugely ahead, of China at that point. We will be able to get cheap units by drafting once we have nationalism.

Of course, if it turns out that we need more units to prevent a flip than are needed to jump the capital there, there's no reason not to jump once we're in communism (but I think it would be a rank-corruption bug exploit to jump before then, if we get Paris before then). Anyone know if a city in resistance can become the capitol?

So I guess the immediate plan is to finish acquiring whatever luxes and land we can from our neighbors and continue to pump out cavs and perhaps start some cannons in our productive cities. Besides filling our land with towns.

Someone said something a while back about ROPing our way to France and giving the intermediate civs steam to rail our our way. I haven't looked at the map recently - is that a better plan than shipping troops up by sea?

 

[Gyathaar]

Easy way to prevent flips is just to wipe out france...
We dont have to wipe them out fast.. we just need paris, and even if it flips, all we have to do it take it back...
However even if we take out japan, carthage, iroquis and most of india, we can still take all of french lands and still be under domination limit.

@Gyathaar - in your culture games, how have you addressed this issue.

I dont really see flips as a big issue.. I expect flips to happen, thou it rarely happens in a 100k game once you start building culture.
Whenever a city flips, just take it back the same turn.. dont keep units inside cities with high fliprisk.. keep one unit there till resistors gone.. rush workers/settlers untill then (by disbanding or chopping)

 

[AlanH]

The other option is to let it flip. As long as we can retake it immediately we'll only lose it for a turn each time, and it won't flip every turn. Retaking also reduces pop by one for each flip. Of course, we have to stay at war to be able to do that.

In some cases he includes the flip possibilities and what he tried to do about it, besides pray, of course!

I think my only decision on flips in that turn set was to abandon Lyons, which had a 40% flip probability. We had achieved our prime objective, to destroy their almost-built UN, and they had SunTzu there. It was far safer to abandon than to gamble on defending and keeping it. But abandoning Paris isn't an option here.

 

[leif erikson]

What size were those cities?

To answer this I went back to look and most of the highee rated flips chances were in the 4 to 6 size range. Entremont in 1800 was size 11. The interesting one in 1800 is Strasborg as it was size 5 but also was located 6 squares from our capital, Moscow. France at that time had a cultural value 7 times ours.

In 1870, Tokyo was size 8, Osaka and Kyoto 6, Baghdad size 4 and Cherborg size 2. By 1870, Frances culture was about 6 times ours.

In SGOTM06, France's culture is not quite 2 times ours.

I think Gyathaar may have the right idea on this, slowly eliminate France as we go, stay at war, and continue to retake Paris whenever it flips. Jumping may be too difficult to do. I have two questions in that case.

1. I assumed (that awful word again) we would try to develop culture in as peaceful a world as possible. That is why I considered jumping the palace, so it couldn't flip and we would have what we need and keep peaceful.
EDIT - Ooops, forgot the question. Can we focus on cultural development while we are at war? This leads to question 2.

2. If we stay at war with France with all of our cities at 95% corruption, can we maintain an Army of Cavs with replacements by pop rushing what we need and what effect will that have on the culture rush?

 

[DJMGator13]

What size were those cities?

Some of the bigger FRA cities that fell in SG05 during my last turnset were as follows

size 15 flip was 27 to 56%
size 12 flip was 15 to 32%
a size 19 city that I didn't even bother to check

and 2 Kelt cities were
size 12 flip was 13 to 27%
size 13 flip was 14 to 30%

Although leif had some +20 cities to hit on his last turnset

 

[WillowBrook]

Eliminate France - yep, that's the permanant solution. I like it.

I'm not sure how we'll best maintain our army; cavs essentially costs 3 cpt (80 shield library or cathedral, 4 disbanded rifles). But if we are gaining land (and good land at that) where we can build more towns and thus more culture, it's probably worth it.

 

[leif erikson]

I've played 5 turns and they have taken quite a while. The old Carthage core is ours and the cavs have beguin to move towards Iroquois Territory. Not much has happened there as we didn't have many units there. I haven't touched Japan yet as it is fun to watch them duke it out with China.

Communism is due in 12 turns, but I don't know that we'll be ready to change without the Pyramids in hand.

We are still weak compared to France and babylon, average versus America and strong versus everyone else.

Pre-flight
Turn 190 – 750 AD
We are at war with Carthage and Iroquois. I should focus on the elimination of Carthage (10 cities), the Iroquois (14 cities) and Japan (3 cities).

For Carthage, only 3 old core cities need to fall, Leptis Magna, Hippo and Leptis Minor. For the Iroquois, there are 10 cities that should be focused on located between India and former Japan and Carthage. If we can get these this turn set, that would be good.

For France, we also need to begin building Cannon and Galleons for transport. We have 3 Catapults that can be upgraded, prolly need another 12 to 15, and 4 Caravels that need upgrade, prolly need another 10 to 12. Problem with the Caravels is that they are on the wrong side of the world and will need to be sailed around. We also have 28 Cavs, and we’ll require more of them as well.

The former Chinese core could be used to produce some of the materiel we’ll need for France while the original core can pump out some Cavs. Moving cavs into the former, or soon to be former, Iroquois zone for transport will work out. A land route to France is not very workable, needing to pass thorough India, Babylon, Vikings, a little of England and finally to France, ending up in a place far from Paris. Seaward invasion is the most practical answer, imho.

OK, let’s get some wars going up north to eat up some French units. We have no real rep, so let’s see what we can stir up.

Set research slider to 0%, we have 275 GPT to work with.
France won’t talk for Nationalism so I follow Gyathaar’s advice and renegotiate peace with Babylon and get Nationalism for Peace and 187 GPT. I then declare war on Babylon, will they never learn?

Next, visit the French and ask for an alliance against Babylon. They give us an alliance for WM plus 165 GPT, I agree. France declares war on Babylon. We then declare war on France.

Visit England and ask for an alliance against France. They want Nationalism and won’t even give a WM for it, so we accept and now have a partner.

Visit India and we don’t have an embassy with them, so I build one for 53 Gold. The Indians are in Democracy, have Iron and Horses in the Strategic Resources box but are building Cavs? Delhi has a pop of 9 but 5 of them are entertainers. It is defended by a Pike and 3 Spears. India has an ROP with both Babylon and France and could be used to transport troops against us so we sign an alliance with India against both France and Babylon for Nationalism, WM plus 97 Gold. Prolly signing their death warrant, but, it’ll be a good buffer for our short term purposes. The trade embargo against us between India and France ends. India declares on the French and the Babylonians.

Visit the Vikings and they will sign an alliance against the French for Nationalism and give us Ivory, which we will soon have our source, but why not. The Vikings declare on the French.

The Americans won’t talk to us about anything, so I leave them alone, for now.

I think we’ve done enough damage up north.

Pop-rush the Harbor in Shimonoseki as the citizens were Japanese there and Keltoi in Gator’s Point.
Pop-rush the Temple in Theveste.

Can’t change any builds in our cores to Cannon because I declared on Babylon, but next turn the saltpeter will be back again.

Move some Caravels towards Shimonoseki for upgrade.
Set city of Carthage to starve.
Set research to Communism at 70%, got a phone call and forgot to change it back to 60%.
OK, finally, I think we can press enter.

IBT
10 Shields harvested to New Tolosa.
Iroquois Knight attacks a Cav near Oil Springs and dies, Cav promotes.
A second Iroq Knight attacks the same Cav and kills him.
Carthaginian Archer moves out of Nora headed south, a Cav take 1 HP as he passes through the ZOC.
Iroq Archer attacks Indian Pike and dies.
China and France have signed a Trade Embargo against us.
Beijing Cavalry => Knight.
2 resistors quelled in Carthage.
Lugdunum Settler => Settler.
Theveste Temple => Worker.
Qingdao Marketplace => Galleon.
Shimonoseki Harbor => Worker.
Lindum Settler => Cannon.
Rutupiae Galleon => Worker.
Filnton Worker => Worker.

Turn 191 – 760AD
Set research slider to 60%, Communism in 17 turns.
At Nora
Cats attack 3/3 Spatan Hoplite and one hits for 1 HP.
4/4Cav attacks 3/3 Spartan Hoplite and dies? Redlining the Num Merc.
Fortify the 5/5 Sword and wait for help.

Near Oil Springs 10/14 Army attacks 3/3 Iroq Knight and kills him, now 9/14.

Found New Arausio, set to worker.
Found New Durocortorum, set to Temple.
Found Entremont2, set to Worker.

Battle of Leptis Magna
4/4 Cav attacks 3/3 Spartan Hoplite, loses 1 HP to a Cat, and kills him, promotes, now 2/5.
4/4 Cav attacks 3/3 Spartan Hoplite and retreats, no damage.
4/4 Cav attacks same 3/3 SH and kills him, now 2/4.
4/4 Cav attacks 3/3 SH and kills him, 2/4, takes Leptis Magna, pop 6, 3 resisters. Has Market and Aquaduct. Set to starve and build to worker.

Battle of Hippo
4/4 Cav attacks 4/4 SH and dies, SH now 3/4.
4/4 Cav attacks 3/3 SH and dies, SH now 1/3, promotes to 2/4.
4/4 Cav attacks 3/4 SH and dies, SH now 1/4, promotes to 2/5.
4/4 Cav attcks 2/4 SH and, finally kills him, 3/4.
5/5 Cav attacks 2/5 SH and kills him, now 4/5. Captures Hippo and another Cat. Hippo pop 7 with 7 resisters and has a Bank. Set to Worker.

Pop-rush a Temple in the city of Carthage.

Upgrade 3 Caravels to Galleons at a cost of 40 Gold each.

IBT
The Indians and Iroquois are fighting it out around Oil Springs, this round goes to the Iroquios as a Knight defeats a Pike on a mountain.
Our Ally England signs a Trade Embargo against us with Carthage.
Carthage City Temple => Library.
Kyoto Worker => Worker.
Tokyo Worker => Worker.
Glanum Settler => Cannon.
New Lugdunum Settler => Cavalry.
New Verulamium Cavalry => Cavalry.
New Augustodurum Worker => Worker.

Turn 192 – 770AD
Change build in Leptis Magna to Barracks.
Found Mohacs2, start a Worker.
Found Lugdunum2, start a Worker.
Pop-rush a Settler in Karakorum.
Let Cavs heal.

IBT
Iroquois and India have signed a peace treaty.
Effect is immediate, Iroquois Units head south towards Oil Springs, mostly LB’s.
Iroq Knight attacks 5/5 Cav in Oil Springs and dies, 3/5.
We lose a Worker to an Iroq. Knight.
China declares war on India.
French Cavs move in on Shantung.
Iroquois and Japan have signed a peace treaty.
Karakorum Settler => Temple.
Shanghai Galleon => Galleon.
Kagoshima Worker => Settler.
Ulaanbaatar Worker => Settler.
Verulamium Cavalry => Cavalry.
Paoting Worker => Worker.
Cadiz Temple => Worker.
New Entremont Cavalry => Cavalry.
Carthago Novo Worker => Cannon.
New Agedinicum Temple => Cannon.
Something Easy Worker => Worker.

Turn 193 – 780AD
Change build in Theveste to Barracks and Pop-Rush it.

South of Oil Springs a 5/5 Cav attacks a 2/5 Iroq. Knight and kills him flawlessly.

SW of Carthage city a 4/4 Cav attacks a Carthaginan LB and defeats him flawlessly, promotes to 5/5.

Found Camulodunum2, start a Worker.


IBT
An Iroq. 3/3 LB attacks a 4/4 Cav and redlines him before dying.
2 Iroq 3/3 LB’s lose a HP moving through the Armies ZOC near Oil Springs.
An Iroq. Knight and several LB’s are seen moving towarss Oil Springs.
India and Carthage sign a Trade Embargo against us.
Shantung is threatened by a Stack of Death of French Cavs and Knights, I’ll count when it is our turn.
Nanjing Cavalry => Cavalry.
Theveste Barracks => Worker.
Darhan Settler => Worker.
Lezoux Cavalry => Cavalry.
New Richborough Cavalry => Cavalry.

Turn 194 – 790AD
Upgrade 2 Cats to Cannons for 40 Gold each.
Found Richborough2, start a Temple.
Found Verulamium2, start a Temple.

Near Oil Srings
4/4 Cav attacks a 4/4 Iroq. Knight and kills him flawlessly.
5/5 Cav attacks 2/3 Iroq. LB and, after losing 1 HP to a defensive shot, kills him, 4/5.
5/5 Cav attacks 2/3 Iroq. LB and kills him flawlessly.

Set up 8 healed Cavs to attack Leptis Minor next turn.

Shantung is threatened by 11 French Cavs and 6 Knights. It is undefended and isolated, so we abandon it. Stop the worker from chopping jungle and move him away to a forest square.
Change Glevum from Cav to Harbor.

IBT
The Indians complain that we have troops near Karachi, we apologize.
England shows up to renegotiate our peace deal, haven’t seen that in a while. We accept as we couldn’t negotiate.
A French Frigate attacks one of our Galleons and kills it.
The Japanese and Chinese are battling it out around Nara.
Entremont Settler => Cavalry.
Eboracum Settler => Cannon.
New Glevum Worker => Worker.
New Mohacs Cavalry => Cavalry.
New Ratae Coritanorum Cavalry => Cavalry.

Turn 195 – 800 AD
Upgrade a Cat to Cannon for 40 Gold.

Near Nara a 4/4 Cav kills a 3/3 Iroq. LB.

Found Gerovia2, start a Temple.

Battle of Leptis Minor
4/4 Cav attacks 3/3 SH and retreats, SH = 2/3.
4/4 Cav attacks 3/3 SH and kills him, now 3/4.
5/5 Cav attacks 2/3 Sh and kills him, now 1/4. Take the city, 2 resisters. Has an aqueduct, start a Worker.

Move the remaining Cavs (5) towards Iroquois territory.

Near Oil Springs
5/5 Cav attacks 3/3 Iroq. LB and kills him flawlessly.
4/4 Cav attacks 2/3 Iroq. LB and kills him flawlessly.
5/5 Cav attacks 3/3 Iroq. Knight and kills him flawlessly.

Getting Late, decide to call it a night. There is a wicked storm outside and it is time to sleep to the sound of the wind.

 

[Capt Buttkick]

lurker's comment: Have you guys handbuilt the FP in the core already?
It's just that I'm not sure why you don't abandon Entremont in that case and jump palace to Paris. This was an option early on in the thread iirc.
You need to be very careful about where it jumps of course, but a dive in pop due to pop-rushing the biggest cities would soon be overcome by the effects of the Pyramids, or?

 

[Gyathaar]

We already jumped Palace to Beijing

 

[Capt Buttkick]

Ah, do you need Beijing?

 

[WillowBrook]

Keep up the good work, Leif!

@Capt Buttkick - that palace jump to Beijing was of course after building the FP in the original core.

 

[DJMGator13]

Sounds like good progress, but what's this sleep thing. I've not heard of it before, but it must be important if it interupted a round of Civ.

 

[leif erikson]

Sounds like good progress, but what's this sleep thing. I've not heard of it before, but it must be important if it interupted a round of Civ.

It was an excuse!

Actually, we have lost power twice in the last 2 days and there was no storm then. As the storm got worse and I got sleepier, it was a good time to cut out before the power did! There was also a huge house fire right down the street, burned to the ground!

I hate it when all this non-civ stuff interferes with what is important...

 

[Capt Buttkick]

Keep up the good work, Leif!

@Capt Buttkick - that palace jump to Beijing was of course after building the FP in the original core.

Yes, I thought so. I suggested jumping it again, but I haven't looked at a save for a ages in this game, so don't rely on anything I say