SGOTM6 - Xteam

[Gyathaar]

We want to change all mines to irrigation yes, and railroad evry tile that produce food (not important to rail hills and mountains unless needed for movement)

We can start building culture in smaller cities as soon as we switch to communism (we no longer need gold for research or buying techs then so maintainance cost wont hurt as bad).

Pyramids will double growth, so we really want them asap.. make sure all civs between us and france gets steam asap so they can rail the path to france.. then we can RoP rape france.. (I never broke RoP reputation, and I assume Alan didnt break it (or a MPP) so we should be fine to get pyramids with RoP rape )

We you get a chance.. switch around who of the northen civs that is at war.. I set it up so no neighbouring civs was at war, its time to switch that around now so all civs get into war with civs that currently has units walking though their lands..

 

[WillowBrook]

Things are looking good to me. Leif's list has everything I had in mind. We'll need a large force to get the pyramids and then hold it (prevent culture-flip).

Gyathaar, could you review the culture-building that we'll do in each city once we're no longer building settlers? That is, what buildings should be built in what order at what size and what is used as intermediate rushes (I'm sure I could figure out the optimum method, but I want to make sure we're all on the same page). Also, once we're in Communism, when do we pop-rush and when do we let the city go to size 7 and draft?

 

[leif erikson]

France has 27 cities and over 8,000 culture points atm. Once we go over to Communism, I don't think it matters very much where we have our Palace and FP as, iirc, the corruption is spread fairly evenly over the empire.

I am thinking that we might not have to take so much of France if we jump the palace into Paris to keep it from flipping back to France, sort of Flip Insurance. Of course, we will need a GL to do this but.....

 

[WillowBrook]

France has 27 cities and over 8,000 culture points atm. Once we go over to Communism, I don't think it matters very much where we have our Palace and FP as, iirc, the corruption is spread fairly evenly over the empire.

I am thinking that we might not have to take so much of France if we jump the palace into Paris to keep it from flipping back to France, sort of Flip Insurance. Of course, we will need a GL to do this but.....

I'm thinking just put lots and lots of units in Paris. Well, about ten to quell resistors and 40 standing by, expecting a flip or two as we starve it to 1. We still might need 20 or 30 units to reduce the flip chance to 0, but they can be anything, including slaves, IIRC.

I'm afraid that even under Communism, we could be guilty of taking advantage of the rank corruption bug if we jumped the palace to Paris - though I really son't know how corruption works under Communism, other than that it's more spread out.

 

[DJMGator13]

I am thinking that we might not have to take so much of France if we jump the palace into Paris to keep it from flipping back to France, sort of Flip Insurance. Of course, we will need a GL to do this but.....

I hope the last smiley was for the fact that we can't use Leaders for the palace build. So we would have to build it or jump it again using troops as points.

EDIT: crossed with Willow - the rank exploit would only come into effect if we don't develope another core around it. I think Ainwood uses half the OCN as an estimate of needed cities around the new palace. The grey area is when the cities have to be there, ie. before or after the palace jump.

 

[Gyathaar]

Culture improvements should be in this order: temple,library,cathedral, university,collosseum.. library and cath give same culture per shield, but cath costs twice as much in maintainance.

Exceptions from this might be cities where you draft.. they will be so unhappy that they might need cath before library.

Also once we get further into rushing, rush collosseums before university if growing 4 more in size will take longer than half the time left before win.

Whenever a city has to use a tile that only give one food, use that citizen to part rush.
Explorer or barracks costs 20shields, rush to this first
longbow/cannon/harbor costs 40shields
if coastal you can partrush frigate for 60shields
library/cath are 80 shields

if going towards uni:
courthouse is 80 shields
aqueduct/market is 100shields
collosseums 120 shields
bank is 160 shields
university is 200 shields

when going towards university the city has to reach minimum size 4 two (if coastal) or three times... since there are steps that are 40 shields between them, and you can only rush away max half the citizens.. alternatively you can disband a rifle, and then do the 2nd partrush at size 2.

As long as a city can work tiles that give 3+ food per tile, the citizens should not be rushed away.. exception is when you are already past 5 food extra, and you cant make it to 10 surplus food per turn (only takes 4 irrigated railed grassland tiles to make 10).

2 food tiles can be rushed away or not depending on the circumstances.. if it helps finish the build a turn earlier or if the city is unhappy when working it, then rush it away.. else keep it for the extra gold it gives.

Any city that has aqueduct or is on fresh water, and make atleast 5 food per turn should be at size 6-7 and draft instead of puprush.. but it should get atleast temple and cath, and prolly library too before it starts drafting... butshield be drafing instead of building university (well, they shuld be building uni the normal way).. when they get really unhappy, poprush the university to completion and the city will most likely be size 1 or 2 at that point.

 

[AlanH]

I don't see that there's any exploit in a remote palace once we are communist. Communislm spreads corruption evenly as far as I know. Every city gets the same average corruption level regardless of distance or rank.

 

[DJMGator13]

Good point on Communism and corruption. I've not been in Comm in a Civ III game for ages and can't remember a thing about it. Other than flip insurance there is no reason to jump the palace. Couldn't we just wait for resistance to end and then pop rush it down to size 1?

It also depends on when we capture it. If our culture is greater than FRA at that time it lowers the flip risk.

I picked up a new way to reduce pop while still in resistance from Moonsinger over in the HOF forums. If we have enough workers in the area to plant and clear 3 "virgin" forest than we would complete the settler even in resistance. Same method can be used to do a single forest and go the worker route.

 

[Gyathaar]

A disbanded drafted rifle plus a chopped forest makes a settler in one turn too

 

[WillowBrook]

Once we've RR everything that needs it, we also need to make sure we don't violate M-B clarification of the worker joining rule (in the maintenance thread):

As regards joining workers. Joining workers with the specific intention of increasing population to the point where it enables the whipping of a specific improvement is an exploit and not allowed. Joining workers for other reasons is OK though (e.g. increasing a towns pop to size 7 to get the additional defence bonus). Setting a hard and fast rule would only get me into trouble again so I'll leave it like this.

We'd said earlier that the rule forbade building workers for the purpose of pop-rushing; he says its the joining of the workers that's the problem. So we have to figure out what we're going to do with all our workers.

He doesn't address joining a worker for drafting, but that also seems to be outside the spirit of the rule. I think it would be fine, though, to use them to bring a town up to size 6 that was no longer going to pop-rush anything but just draft. Any other legitimate uses for unneeded workers? (Besides sitting them in Paris, once we have it, to eliminate the flip risk)

 

[leif erikson]

Good point on Communism and corruption. I've not been in Comm in a Civ III game for ages and can't remember a thing about it. Other than flip insurance there is no reason to jump the palace. Couldn't we just wait for resistance to end and then pop rush it down to size 1?

Yes we can do this but the distance to the respective capitals also counts and France's new capital will certainly be much closer to Paris than wherever we can place it. The other option, of course, is to cut a wide swath around Paris to keep Paris within our cultural boundries and Paris' boundries free from touching French boundries.

@Gator - forgot about the leaders, again!! So, the only two ways are to build it, NOT!, or jump it maybe?!?!

There is a pretty good write-up in the civilopedia under the headings Culture Flipping and City Defection.

With Communism, Alan is correct, it doesn't matter where your palace is located, every city suffers the average level of corruption, no matter how far it is from the palace.

 

[DJMGator13]

Just add a single workers to individual cities after we have rr'd everything. Adding just one can't be considered an exploit.

 

[Tomoyo]

650AD (0):

Let's see. I want to get America and England to fight Babylon and Scandinavia. Not gonna happen. Our rep is as dead as something dead. Renegotiating peace won't work either.

Move a few troops and press Enter.

IT: Vikings and American sign peace. India and France sign a trade embargo against us.

Kyoto: Worker --> worker
New Rutupiae: Rax --> Temple
Nemausus: Knight hmm:) --> Cavalry

660AD (1):

Battle of Tokyo:

Vet cav kills regular Sam flawlessly. Promotes.
Vet cav kills regular Pike losing two hp.
Elite cav kills regular Spear losing two hp and Tokyo is ours.

Japanese capital jumps to Nagoya.

Battle of Kagoshima:

Vet cav redlines against regular Pike, retreats, Pike suffers no damage.
Vet cav kills said Pike losing two hp, promotes.
Elite cav kills regular Spear flawlessly and Kagoshima is ours.

Battle of Matsuyama:

Vet cav charges in, longbow fires, misses, and kills the spear losing one hp.
Vet cav redlines but kills Regular spear.
Vet cav kills Longbow losing two hp and Matsuyama is ours.

Filnton founded (not a typo, and not lysdexic)

Now I'm planning the attack on France. We have two choices. We could either sail across and land one city away from Paris, or we could go through India, Babylon, and Scandinavia.

I'm thinking that across the water would be easier, but going through Babylon, Scandinavia, and India does give us more cities...

Establish an embassy with Carthage to verify that they are indeed at war with Japan.

IT: France signs Carthage and the Iroquois against us.

New Augustodorum: Worker --> Worker
New Eboracum: Temple --> Explorer
New Segusio: Temple --> Library

Orleans completes Newton's University.

670AD (2):

Battle of Nagoya:

Vet cav takes one hp off regular musket, retreats.
Vet cav takes one hp off regular Sam, dies, Sam promotes.
Vet cav takes one more hp off said Sam, dies.
Elite Knight redlines regular Pike and dies.
Vet Knight dies against regular musket, promotes musket.

Call off the attack and make peace with Japan for Toyama.

Start to attack Hakodate (owned by Carthage) but retreat once I see a huge stack of archers, NuMes, and longbows.

Then, I spot a slight problem regarding the position of the Carthaginian core in relation to our western holdings, related to the amount of troops we have there versus the amount of troops the Carthiginians probably have there.

IT: Lose a Knight, kills a knight, kill a longbow.

Utica: Worker --> Temple
Guangzhou: Knight --> Library
Cirta: Temple --> Harbor
Ulaanbaatar: Worker --> Worker
Cataractonium: Knight --> Cavalry
Lindum: Knight --> Settler
Paoting: Worker --> Worker
Carthago Novo: Temple --> Worker
Paris: Smith's Trading Company --> ???

France signs China against us. Qingdao goes smokey.

680AD (3):

Something easy to spell founded.

Attack some Carthaginian longbows and Tenna, a 2/5 cavalry, pops a leader!

Build an army, of course.

IT: Iroquois declare war on England.

Steam Power --> Nationalism

Beijing: Uni --> Cavalry
Ta-Tu: Temple --> Harbor
Shanghai: Cavalry --> Cavalry
Kazan: Settler --> Temple
Mohacs: Settler --> cavalry
Sabratha: Worker --> Temple
Verulanium: Cavalry --> Cavalry
Shantung: Worker --> Temple
Monguntiacum: Settler --> Harbor
Resort Gyathaar: Temple --> Settler
New Tolosa: Worker --> Temple
New Isca: Temple --> Harbor

690AD (4): Sign peace with France for 240 gold.

Start railroading marginally. We don't have enough workers.

IT: China and England sign peace.

Lugdunum: Cavalry --> Settler
Almarikh: Temple --> Harbor
Richborough: Settler --> Cavalry

Leptis Minor, which has our only military in a million miles, flips to the Carthaginians.

Ise: Worker --> Worker
New Glevum: Worker --> Worker

700AD (5):

Battle of Grand River:

Vet cav dodges longbow shot, kills regular spear flawlessly.
Vet cav loses on hp, kills regular spear.
Elite cav defeats longbow flawlessly and Grand River is ours.

OTher little skirmishes happen.

IT: Babylon and France ally against Japan.

Hangzhou: Cavalry --> Cavalry
Augustorum: Cavalry --> Cavalry
Kaifeng: Settler --> Settler

710AD (6):

Skier's Heaven founded.

Battle of Hakodate:

Vet Cav takes two hp off regular NuMe, but dies.
Vet Cav kills now vet NuMe, losing one hp.

Battle of Nara:

Cav army kills vet spear, losing four hp.
Vet cav kills regular spear flawlessly and Nara is ours.

IT: Babylon and England sign peace.

Satsuma: Worker --> Worker
Camulodorum: Cavalry --> Cavalry
Edboracum: Cavalry --> Settler
Ratae Coritanorum: Cavalry --> Cavalry
New Cataractonium: Temple --> Library
New Lugdunum: Cavalry --> Settler
New Lingum: Temple --> Barracks
New Axima: Temple --> Worker
Chartres: ??? --> Universal Suffrage
My little sister --> Wants to play with me
Save --> Here

720AD (7): Not a lot happens. I wonder how we're gonna get to Paris...

IT: China and France ally against Japan.

Entremont: Cavalry --> Settler
Xinjian: Temple --> Settler
Chengdu: Cavalry --> Settler

730AD (8):

Battle of Oil Springs:

Vet cav redlines a regular pike, but dies.
Vet cav loses two hp, kills a regular spear, and promotes.
Elite cav loses four hp but kills a 1/3 pike, and Oil Springs is ours.

"My Will" founded.

IT: Sign peace with the Chinese for "DaveMcWorgBorg" and some gold.

Japan and France sign peace.

Lapurdum: Cavalry --> Cavalry
Ise: Worker --> Temple
Curevernum: Cavalry --> Cavalry
Babylon: ??? --> Universal Suffrage

740AD (9):

Battle of/for Carthage:

Vet cav charges in, dodges a longbow shot, and kills a vet NuMe flawlessly. Good Omen.
Vet cav takes on hp from a regular NuMe, but retreats.
Vet cav kills regular NuMe flawlessly.
Vet cav takes on hp from a regular NuMe, and dies.
Vet cav does nothing on a regular NuMe, and retreats.
Vet cav kills a regular NuMe losing one hp.
Vet cav kills a regular NuMe losing one hp.
Vet cav kills a 2/3 NuMe flawlessly and promotes.
Vet cav kills a 2/3 NuMe flawlessly and promotes.
Vet cav kills regular longbow losing one hp and Carthage is ours.

That was good. I had to use my last cav, though.

OH, and Carthage had JS Bach's Cathedral. And the GL, but that's useless.

Capiendum Carthaginis (The capture of Carthage) founded.

Tempus Novum (New Era) founded.

I blast a heavily defended chokepoint with heavy artillery. (choke point defended by one regular NuMe, and I bombard with two catapults)

New Noviomagnus (A bit redundant) founded.

Dearest founded.

Make peace with the Vikings for Lund. Now try to find where Lund is.

Hey, what do you know! It's a one-tile island next to our FP core!

IT:

Qianqin: Worker --> Worker
Nagasaki: Worker --> Temple
Agedincum: Cavalry --> Cavalry
Hadrumetum: Settler --> Temple
Ningpo: Worker --> Library
New Camulodorum: Cavalry --> Cavalry
Willowbrook: Settler --> Library
Leif's Hideaway: Temple --> Settler
New Montigacum: Barracks --> Temple
New Lezoux: Worker --> Temple
Orleans: ??? --> Magellan's Voyage

750AD (10):

Battle of Sapporo:

Elite cav takes cat hit, kills NuMe losing one hp.
Elite cav kills Nume losing two hp and Sapporo is ours.

Sudden Iroquois counterattack forces us to retreat the Salamanca attack force.

Notes:

- Southern Galleon to repopulate the depopulated island
- Northern Galleon builds to go to Paris
- Eastern Galleon builds not to exist
- Notey notey

 

[Gyathaar]

things look fine to me.. we can buy nationalism from babylon btw by reneg peace and offer gpt (turn down sci to 0% first). We dont need the slat from them, we can just poprush one of the 2 halfdone harbors in cities that has specialists.

Just need to finish of carthage, japan and iroquis.. then go after france somehow.

with rails things will start to speed up since units will not need to spend forever to get to front

Should leave the peninsula north of carthage core alone for now.. just fortify the choke.. will be easy to take that away later, and in meantime they might clear some jungle for us

 

[leif erikson]

Nice turn set Tomoyo!

Got us some more property, some more luxs, some more of everything!!

There are 3 Japanese cities remaining, is there a reason to keep them around?
Carthage has 10 cities and the Iroquois have 14, we'll have to shave that down some.
Paris may have to wait until we deal with Carthage and the Iroquois. The French must have rifles, may need some cannons along. Should probably produce some.

Checking with CivAssist, and setting the government to communism under the corruption tab, shows that all our cities will go to 90% corruption. Can this be correct, that the average corruption value will be 90%? Now I see why pop rushing is so important, if it can't be pop'ed, it can't be built??

BTW - I've got it and plan to play tomorrow night (Tuesday).

 

[Gyathaar]

Yes, the high number of cities will make most cities only produce 1 or 2 shields.. with 2 shields it takes 10 turns to produce the same as 1 population growth gives.. which may be 1 or 2 or max 3 turns in most cases (twice as long without pyramids)

 

[Tomoyo]

Speaking of the Pyramids, how are we gonna get it? I started a few ships, but I have a feeling that it will take more than that to crack Paris.

 

[leif erikson]

Speaking of the Pyramids, how are we gonna get it? I started a few ships, but I have a feeling that it will take more than that to crack Paris.

I have the same feeling. I think we should build some cannons, perhaps 10 to 15, to bombard with. We have an army to protect the cannons, so all that we need in addition is a about 30 Cavs and the galleons to transport is all with and we should be set.

Paris has 5 cities around it spaced a 5.x and we should consider planning to take them as well, to have access to the sea (harbors) and trying to reduce flip chances, imho.

 

[DJMGator13]

Looks like we will need to transport troops to FRA to go after Paris. I like leifs suggestion of cannons and cavs against their rifles. So we need to mass produce some galleons and cannons. We have 28 cavs currently.

Workers should concentrate on rr'd an expressline to the front and/or transport location. We don't really need the penisula of Cart as Gyathaar stated but that would give us a very nice launching point to go after France from.

 

[AlanH]

Well done Tomoyo. I didn't realise you were set up to take three Japanese cities in that first turn!

Gyathaar
AlanH
Tomoyo - just played
leif erikson UP
WillowBrook - On deck
DJMGator13

It sounds like we'll need to time our jump to Communism for when we've already produced most of the military we'll ever need, and maybe only do it after we've grabbed the Pyramids.

I must say I'm worried about the flip risk on Paris, since we need to have and hold the Pyramids for the duration. During SGOTM5 we took a single French core city, and it was at something like 25% risk. We have more culture in this game than we did then, but I'm guessing we'll still have a high flip probability unless we can reduce France to a shadow of its current self.