SGOTM6 - Xteam

[WillowBrook]

the save

Here are my notes as I took them; I'll post a summary and map soon.

Turn 50
MM: Change Entremont from working river forest (10) to the other forest (17), and put non-wheat citizen in Mohacs on the river forest. Set Camu to granary.
Archer: south toward Mohacs
(Enter)

IBT: Barb horse appears and attacks exploring warrior, taking one HP.
The Chinese start the pyramids.

Turn 51
Archer into Mohacs, lower lux to 10%. Worker next to Mohacs moves south to BG. Warrior in Camu SW on hill. E-warrior fortifies to heal.

Check on writing deals:
Iroquois want 110g and 4gpt; they’ll sell two contacts for 90g
Mongols want 122 and 4gpt
Chinese want 110g and 4gpt
I’ll wait a few turns till we can pay straight up (we’re getting 17 gpt)
(Enter)

E-warrior defends against barb w with no more damage and promotes, but barb horse takes him down to one HP.
Carthage starts the pyramids.

Turn 52
Fortify archer in Mohacs, move Entremont citizen from forest (17) to BG (13) for growth in one, worker road by Lug, Camu warrior south, e-warrior remains fortified to heal.

(Enter)
IBT: nothing

Turn 53
Uh-oh – Satsuma just expanded and took the cow. I rush the temple in Lugdunum anyway, since there’s now a flip risk. Camu warrior SW, e-warrior will be fully healed next turn. Raise lux to 20% for Entremont happiness.

(Enter)
IBT: Entremont: settler => barracks; Lugdunum: temple => barracks

Turn 54
Settler to just east of iron, Camu warrior S – there are dyes we should claim!

I experiment with the contact hypothesis: I can buy writing for 163g and 1gpt from Hiawatha. Instead, I buy contact with the Vikings for 30g (the cheapest contact). Unfortunately, Ragnar doesn’t have writing. Well, I’ll wait another couple of turns.

E-warrior: do I risk popping the hut? It could be a tech. Or the warrior could die. I move NW to give the barb a chance to attack me first.

(Enter)
IBT: E-warrior survives barb attack, but loses a HP.

Turn 55
Oops – forgot to lower lux. Lower it to 0 (for one turn). N worker moves west (road will connect N towns to the silks). S worker SE (road will connect Camu). Move citizen in Entremont from forest to rBG. Yes! That mine that just completed will make the barracks complete in 2!
Richborough founded, set to worker (this can be changed to warrior if the team decided), Camu warrior E, E-warrior pause to heal

(Enter)
IBT: barb horse and warrior move just N or Mohacs.

Turn 56
Workers road, Camu warrior E on dye. I decide to pop the hut. I get a map (from the Mayans, I think?) Archer takes out barb warrior with no damage. Raise lux to 10%. I leave Mohacs new citizen on river plains – granary will complete in 8, 2 turns before growth to size four.

I decide to go ahead and buy writing from the Chinese: 163g and 1gpt.

(Enter)
IBT: Entremont: barracks => settler. Barb horse moves to hill.

Turn 57
Uh-oh: both mapmaking and philosophy are generally known. Combat calc says my archer will almost certainly win against the barb horse. Problem is, I’ll have to bump up luxes to make Mohacs happy…

Oh, but I can trade maps w/o MM. Let’s do this carefully.
I trade TM with Iroquois, throwing in 12g.
I give my WM and 1gpt to the Japanese for TM and 10g. Wow – they’ve got eight towns!
I sell the Vikings writing and 21 gold for contact with the French, English, and Americans.
neoCarthage: I give WM and 1gpt for TM and 15g
Mongols: give WM for TM and 6g
China: get TM for WM and 2g
The English do not have MM yet
The French also do not have MM
That’s 3 civs w/o MM. Should bite the bullet and buy it? I can probably get philosophy and HBR and the rest of communications by selling it around.
Okay – we can afford it.
Americans: I buy MM and their TM for WM, 11gpt and 12g
French: Should I sell MM for philosophy, contact with Babs and Indians, TM, and (all) 4g, or should I get her WM for MM and my WM? I go for the first option, since that gives more trading partners.
England: get her WM and all 25g for MM and my WM
Vikings: sell then MM for their WM and all 24g
Trade WM with France.

So the good news is we have contact with everyone and at least territory maps, and all known techs except HBR; bad news is we’re paying out 14 gpt.

Archer: kills barb horse, but I have to bump lux rate up to 30% to keep Mohacs happy. S warrior: W, E-warrior: NE (I could go NE or NW, but decide on NE)

(Enter)
IBT: nothing

Turn 58
Archer back to Mohacs, lux down to 10%, Entremont: citizen from forest to BG for growth in 1. 2 warriors explore.

I feel like I should be doing something more after the last long turn…

(Enter)
IBT: English start Colossus.

Turn 59
Lux to 20% to keep Entremont happy. Fortify archer in Mohacs, N worker starts mining next to Lugdunum, S worker moves E to road

(Enter)
IBT: lose S warrior to barb horse! The Chinese start Colossus.

Turn 60
Oh, no! COL AND polytheism are both out there!!! I save and quit.

 

[AlanH]

Turns are getting busier, I see. Well played WillowBrook .

Gyathaar On deck
AlanH
Tomoyo
leif erikson
WillowBrook just played
DJMGator13 UP

Gator's turn. A less exhausting set than your last set in SGOTM5, I hope .

 

[WillowBrook]

Summary for turns 50-60, played by Willowbrook

The good news is that we have contact with everyone, at least territory maps with everyone, and were almost at tech parity (minus HBR) until the current turn. The bad news is that we're paying out 14gpt to support the above knowledge, code of laws and polytheism have just shown up, and there are a lot of big civs out there.

Here's our kingdom:

breif recap:

Cities
We have a temple in Lugdunum, but Satsuma expanded the turn before it completed, so we don't have the cow. We have barracks in Entremont, and two granaries are almost complete.

Tech
I probably should have bought writing sooner - maybe mapmaking wouldn't have already been out there. But we have writing, MM, and philosophy now (see turnlog for details). Unfortunately, COL and poly just showed up.

Maps
I couldn't get more than territory maps for a reasonable price, but did get several WM for MM. We at least know where everyone is and how scary they're looking. The exploring warrior survived some troubles, but the warrior that was in Camulodunum just got killed by a barb horse just to the SW of the above picture.

Looking Ahead
Here are my suggestions for each town:
Entremont: keep producing settler and warrior every six turns. the warriors will now be vets. This means MM the food to have 3, 3, 4 fpt at each size. The 4 needs to be last so that the new citizen goes on the forest.
Mohacs: Should become a 3-turn worker factory (size 3-4 for now). I think we need to mine a grassland to make this work. When the granary finishes, we might want to build a settler first, or go straight to a worker. (With some land improvement, it can become a 6-turn settler factory. But we need workers to do the improving)
Camulodunum: I haven't carefully mapped this out, but I think we can road the BG the worker is on, then move it to the deer and start chopping, then when the granary finishes, build another worker to help with the chop and set to barracks, and the chop should all go to the barracks. Then we can have a 4-turn warrior/worker factory once the deer is watered and the BG mined. (This plan needs to be double-checked. Or replaced if there's a better one.)
Lugdunum: once the barracks is done and the town reaches size three, it can be a 2-turn warrior factory.
Richborough: I don't know what we want to build here, but I set it to worker for now.
Next towns: I think we should get the other wheat. There are two possible ring-5 locations. I don't have a preference at the moment We should also claim the dyes and a spice source before too long. I wouldn't be surprised to see Japanese settlers on our side of the channel soon.

Military plans
I have a feeling the Japanese are going to be trouble. The Babs will also be a culture threat, but the chances of reaching them any time soon are slim. But I'm not a war-monger, so I'll let the experts decide how to handle this. When do we start fomenting phony wars?

Tech
I'm surprised by the pace. But I don't usually play this big a map on emporer (or any level for that matter).

Hmm - no more thoughts at the moment. Gator - it's all yours!

 

[DJMGator13]

Got it. I won't play until tomorrow after work, so there is time for discussion.

EDIT: Crossed with Willow's post. I like the city assessment in Willow's report.

Some quick things I saw looking at the save.

1) We need more workers, should I go for 2 workers from Entremont instead of a settler?

2) We need to keep an eye out for Math and buy it ASAP or should we switch research now? Then we could start on CURR, the AI's favor CONST because of the Wonder attached to it. That could give us something to barter with. Looks like we'll be playing catchup on the techs. That's what happens when playing with 12 civs.

3) Looks like we have plenty of room to continue to settle, we really need a second city cranking out settlers, Mohacs granary completes in 4 that should help.

4) At some point, say completion of 2nd ring, we may want to cut off settling and start amassing an army and let the AI's build cities for us. War will give us more cities and some techs in peace deals. If we wait too long we could be facing some stronger knight UUs.

 

[Gyathaar]

I think the main reason for the techrate is all the expansionist civs in this game, things should slow down a bit when we enter middle ages.

 

[DJMGator13]

Preturn 1500BC
open save, review situation and post comments for team. Save and exit.

load up game / turn on animations
eqWorker mines / exploring warrior E (next to Bcamp
review cities - no changes

IBT - Entremont settler => warrior (mm to +4fpt) / 3 civs have MATH

Turn 61 - 1475BC
settler to site #6 (wanted to fill in first ring)
Warrior attacks E to Bcamp - we redline and win promo to elite but now there is a Bhorse in the camp that was not there last turn
check cities - OK

IBT - CHN just claimed the western spice (@RCP9) and 2 archers move into view near the wheat

Turn 62 - 1450BC
Decide not to settle #6 - better go claim that wheat and close off the corner (almost moved settler that way last turn)
settler NE / there are now 2 Bhorses in the Bcamp (I think out warrior is meat) move him N to hill
check cities - mm Entremont to +3fpt +7spt
lower lux to 10% should have done last turn after settler was produced

IBT - WOW a CART warrior moves near the Bcamp and the Bhorse attacks it instead of us / the 2 CHN archers are headed to the Bcamp north of us / Entremont warrior => settler

Turn 63 - 1425BC
moving new warrior to Mohacs for MP (reach city next turn) / settler 3 tiles into Richborough / fort our injuried warrior to heal
check cities - no changes / both granaries will complete before growth

IBT - CHN archer turn around the Bcamp is no longer visible / more civs have MATH but nothing new
Mohacs granary => worker
Lugdunum barracks => warrior

Turn 64 - 1400BC
Tech status to start turn (hmm, why would he say that...)

Can buy HBR for our Wmap and 65 gold [CivAssist values it at 88gold] - I'd rather buy POLY or MATH because not everyone have those two and we could possibly trade, need over 200 gold for those

While trading our Wmap around the horn I come across this deal - IND offers HBR, Tmap and 2gold for our Wmap
That was sweet - update our world map picked up HBR and made 65 gold

I now have enough money to buy MATH from FRA (cheapest price) for 145gold and 1gpt (what's 1 more gpt)

By switching off research I can buy POLY from one of the 2 civs that have POLY but are short MATH
I buy POLY from IRQ (cheaper than from AMR) for MATH and 3gpt
Sell MATH and POLY to CHN for COL and 22gold
Sell POLY to IND for 26gold
Gamble that ENG's Wmap is good and trade them POLY & MATH for it - nice map, removed a lot of fog

(this is why he said that)

Set research to Republic at -1gpt but we have 48gold in our treasury, which is why I made the last trades
lux at 10% sci at 10%

MP warrior reaches Mohacs / settler heading to site #5 (2 more turn to found) / other warrior is healing
check cities - mm Entremont to +4

IBT - CART warrior claims the Bcamp / BAB start building Pyramids after completing the Oracle / FRA starts the lighthouse / MOG, ENG, IRQ start pyramids builds
Richborough worker => barracks

Turn 65 - 1375BC
everyone is at tech parity now
Entremont grew to size 6 - had to raise lux to 20% we went from even to -4gpt

Lug worker W N NE to rPlain NE of Mohacs
new worker N towards site #5
the 2 CHN archer are standing on site 5 so I move settler N to be 1 tile from either site 5 or site 3
check cities again

IBT - CHN archers move off of Site 5 / MON want to talk, trade Tmaps / JPN start pyramids / 6 civs have LIT

Turn 66 - 1350BC
Mohacs worker irr / Cam worker roads / Rich worker roads / move settler SW to site 5 / exploring warrior is healed continue north into the foggy jungle
we down to -3gpt
check cities - mm Cam for food and commerce - only need 1 shield for granary - we improve to -2gpt

IBT - we have 2 Bgalleys North and NW of us / 1 more civ has LIT
Entremont settler => warrior
Mohacs worker => worker
Camulodunum granary => worker

Turn 67 - 1325BC
site 5 settler founds Verulamium - set to worker
new Mohacs worker NE with other worker / explorer N (next to GH)
new settler heading for the dyes
check cities - mm Entremont to +4fpt
lux to 0 for a turn we're at +0gpt

IBT - JPN, BAB, ENG building Great Library
Lugdunum warrior => warrior

Turn 68 - 1300BC
lux to 10% @ -1gpt
check cities - several changes - switch Entremont to settler instead of wasting shields

hold up settler heading towards dyes for a warrior to catch up
explorer with nothing to lose pops the GH - warriors imagine that

IBT - IRQ want to talk, they offer Wmap for our Wmap and 40gold - no deal, trade Tmaps instead / explorer survives 3 Bwarrior attacks / FRA start Great Library after completing the Pyramids, cascade MON switch to Lighthouse / CART, CHN, ENG, AMR switch to Library

Turn 69 - 1275BC
Cam has no MPs up lux to 20% we're at -4gpt (only for a turn - worker completes next turn)
Cam worker to game
settler and warrior S
Rich worker to wheat
explorer heals

check cities - mm Mohacs will produce worker and grow next turn
mm Cam for commerce
we're at -2gpt now

Sell World Map around the horn - gain Tmaps from everyone and 68 gold

IBT - JPN, BAB building Library
Mohacs worker => worker
Camulodunum worker => barracks

Turn 70 - 1250BC
new Mohacs worker heading to Entremont
other Mohacs worker starts mining grass
Verul worker irr wheat
new Cam worker to game where other worker starts a chop
settler & warrior S to dyes
explorer heals
check cities - mm Entremont to +4fpt - will grow and produce settler next turn
lux down to 10% we're +1gpt

1250BC Save
Firaxis 181 / Jason 62

Notes to next player
1) start the 2nd worker on a chop - may need to switch the barracks build it will probably complete before the chop
2) continue settler and warrior to the Tundra tile NE of the shell - this is RCP8 and we will need to rush temple or build a colony to hookup the dyes
3) 1 deal will expire in 6 turns then 3 more expire the following turn
4) I realized I set research to Republic and we cannot change to it but I thought it might give us the best trading options, we are currently only down LIT

 

[Tomoyo]

Nice trading!

But what does "tundra NE of the shell" mean?

I assume that we will be revolting to republic? Like, right when we get it? We're Religious, right?

Is there any chance that we will be in Republic before the land grab phase is over? That would make Entremont into a 4 turn settler factory, if I'm calculating correctly.

 

[DJMGator13]

But what does "tundra NE of the shell" mean?

I assume that we will be revolting to republic? Like, right when we get it? We're Religious, right?

That would be S SW of settler & warrior's current position. The shell is barely visible at the bottom of the screen shot close to the minimap.

And more importantly we cannot use Republic. Variant of the game is that we can only change to Communism.

 

[AlanH]

Gator

Gyathaar UP
AlanH On deck
Tomoyo
leif erikson
WillowBrook
DJMGator13 just played

Go, Gyathaar.

 

[Tomoyo]

There goes that... We'll be using some to help us with reserach, then, wouldn't we?

 

[WillowBrook]

Great turnset, Gator!

One thing we might want to keep in mind when improving the land - assuming we use our UU to start our Golden Age, mined BG won't give us any more production in a despotic GA, but mined regular grasslands will. Mined hills will as well (but they take time to build). As for commerce, roaded tiles by rivers won't benefit from the GA, but other roaded tiles will. I wouldn't use this as a guiding principle, but if it's a toss-up as to which tile to improve, this could help.

I'm glad to see more workers, tech parity, a healthy treasury balance, and less fog over the world! (I'll be interested in comparing the Vanilla/PTW exploration/knowledge with the C3C teams', assuming the later trading of contacts and maps is in place for them. And once our game is finished.)

 

[Gyathaar]

Ofcourse the most distant of all the civs had to build pyramids.. (bet France was set up that far away with good lands just so they could get it first )

Killing off just china,mongols and iroquis (plus carthage on the way) will let us control 8 (wines is right outside iroqui borders) luxes... that leaves gems.. there is 9 luxes in this game?

 

[WillowBrook]

Ofcourse the most distant of all the civs had to build pyramids.. (bet France was set up that far away with good lands just so they could get it first )

China and Carthage both started the pyramids near the start of my turnset.
Edit: Oops - I didn't read the writeup carefully enough. Sorry!

Killing off just china,mongols and iroquis (plus carthage on the way) will let us control 8 (wines is right outside iroqui borders) luxes... that leaves gems.. there is 9 luxes in this game?

I'm not sure at all, but the discussion of the SoZ bug in the C3C version (they can build it with silks) suggests that the luxes have just been changed, not that there are any more. Though why one would take out gems on a map like this beyond me.

 

[Gyathaar]

Hmm.. see you finished off SGOTM5, so I guess I have to start playing this
I notice we are at bottom of score of all the teams, I am guessing because we have such tight build and thus claiming territory slower than the test

There is gems in game.. I just meant there appears to be 9 different luxes in the game (silk,dyes,furs,gems,ivory,spices,incense,wines and wool). Is this normal in these SGOTMs?

 

[AlanH]

I think if you use the check boxes to select which teams to display you'll see that the Classic team graphs are lower scoring. That doesn't explain the Classic teams that are higher scoring than us, but it indicates that the C3C software gives a scoring advantage. I have an action item to split the graphs - I might do it by simply providing a check box to select which version to display.

GOTMs from 20 to 31 used to have all the standard luxuries plus wool and cotton. See this thread for details. This was discontinued when ainwood started designing the maps, as there were lots of grumbles about the amount of modding that was being done. I guess the work done on those mods lives on to some extent in the SGOTMs.

 

[a space oddity]

I think if you use the check boxes to select which teams to display you'll see that the Classic team graphs are lower scoring. That doesn't explain the Classic teams that are higher scoring than us, but it indicates that the C3C software gives a scoring advantage. [snip]

lurker's comment: Yes, the agricultural trait in the C3C version gives an extra food in each city founded near fresh water... this gives a huge scoring advantage to those games.

 

[WillowBrook]

Well, the more lux the better - 10 would be great. I'm trying to finish COTM 09 with a 100k culture win, and the contant drafting causes a lot of unhappiness.

As for long-term plans, do we want to consider taking on Japan as well? I'm personally miffed at the cattle-rustling that happened under my watch.

 

[Gyathaar]

Yes, we will want to take out japan aswell, they are close to us and has good lands, but atm they dont appear to have any luxes,resources or wonders we want.. so not highest priority (prolly best to wait for cavs for taking out their samurais)

 

[AlanH]

I am guessing because we have such tight build and thus claiming territory slower

I thought the plan was to have three settler farms pumping away? Isn't that what we should be doing to get our core fully built? I agree we are prolly claiming territory slower, but is this a symptom of lack of focus on our original goal - lots of cities?

 

[Gyathaar]

I doubt we have lower city count (perhaps 1 city less max), its just that each city claim less territory.. and territory is what gives the biggest part of score in early game.

Score is doesnt matter much in a fastest 100k game.. I fully expect the fastest 100k victory will also have the lowest score (due to unhappiness and lower pop from more intense poprushing)