SGOTM6 - Xteam

[Tomoyo]

Good job, Gator! Nice to see we got some big slab of rock that magically puts granaries everywhere!

 

[DJMGator13]

Summary:
These 5 turns took me close to 8 hours to play, we have upped our cpt from 237 to 291 and have added 14 cities, with more settlers ready to make more, and as already mentioned we now have the Pyramids

preturn - 950AD
reread Willow's Summary and Outlook
fire up both MapStat and CivAssist
we are still in deployment mode with France
161 cities and 237cpt - so we are averaging a temple a city (2cpc)
we have 61 cities w/o any cultural improvements
we are 1421 tiles from domination

I've been using CivAssist to identify cities for pop rushing and then MapStat to jump to the city (quicker than using F1 screen to find city since it doesn't arrange alphabetically in Van Civ)

Using CivAssist (1st sort by "reqd" then by "Type" - this will group the builds in increasing number of turns remaining)
1st Pass - temple (30 shields) builds that have hit 20 or less in the reqd column
2nd Pass - harbor (40 shields) builds look for 20 in reqd column
3rd Pass - libraries (80 shields) look for 20 in reqd column, but check size before rushing

determine that 4th, 5th and 6th pass may be easier to accomplish by cycling thru cities - it's taking too long to locate them
4th Pass - settlers/libraries - any library build with 70 or less that has hit size 4 switch to settler
5th Pass - check about drafting units
6th Pass - MM looking for citizens on poor food tiles and any city at +10fpt

Using the above template I change several builds and rush a temple and a library

after an hour - I hit enter

IBT - IRQ wish to speak, they want us to sign a TE instead I trade them our Wmap for their Wmap and a worker
3 settlers
1 temple
1 library
3 workers
1 harbor

Turn 1 - 960AD
France is in ANARCHY - I don't remember what they were in on the preturn.
move & unload 7 galleons by Dijon / position other galleons to chain the 3 trailing galleons next turn
worker moves take some time also
make some new cities

Cities
Pass 1 - rush 7 temples
Pass 2 - rush 1 harbor
Pass 3 - closest one is at 35 turns need to wait 15 more turns to rush
cycled thru cities rushed a few settlers and changed some library to settlers in less than 10 turns

IBT - TE against us by ENG & CART expires / FRA speaks I trade our Wmap for theirs and 40 gold
settlers 2
temple 7
library
workers 1
harbor 2
cavs 5
aqueduct 1

Turn 2 - 970AD
France still in Anarchy and still at war with BAB, VIK & CHN
unload the last of the initial wave - load up 12 more cavs and position ships for chain
found some cities

Cities
Pass 1- rush 7 temple
Pass 2 - none
Pass 3 - none
cycled thru cities

IBT - VIK and Cart sign peace / TE against us by CHN and BAB ends / the Rampaging CART have destroyed CHN / AMR is building Un Suff.
settlers 4
temple 8
library
workers
harbor
cavs 3
aqueduct

Turn 3 - 980AD
France still in Anarchy - we are still average to them
declare on France - before they come out of Anarchy

Battle for Paris
cannon (-1hp,f,f,f,f,barracks,f,f)
Cav army takes out a vRifle
vCav vrs rRifle - we win down 2hp
eCav vrs rRifle - we die after redlining
vCav vrs rRifle - we win flawlessly
eCav vrs rRifle - we redline and retreat, inflict 1hp
vCav vrs rRifle - we reline and retreat, inflict 1hp
vCav vrs rRifle - we win down 1hp
eCav vrs rRifle - we win down 3hp
finally seeing injured rifles - sb atleast 4 more units there
vCav vrs 3/4 vRifle - we die flawlessly
Cav army (2nd attack) takes out the 3/4 vRifle
eCav vrs 2/3 rRifle - we win down 1hp
eCav vrs 2/3 rRifle - we redline and win
eCav vrs 1/3 rRifle - we win down 1 hp and CAPTURE PARIS with Pyramids, Leo's and Smith's
capture 2 workers outside Paris

Battle at Dijon
cannon (f,f,f,f,f,-1,f)
vCav vrs 3/4 vRifle - we take cat shot, redline and retreat
vCav vrs 3/4 vRifle - we die after redlining the rifle
eCav vrs rMusket - we win down 3hp
ecav vrs 1/4 vRifle - we win, capture city with aqueduct (damn the harbor is gone) and a cat

Battle at Rouen
cannon (f,f,f,f,-1,f)
vCav vrs rRifle - take cannon shot and die flawlessly
eCav vrs rRifle - we redline and retreat 0 damage again
Cav army takes out rRifle
vCav vrs rRifle - we die after redlining unit
vCav vrs 3/4 vRifle - we die flawlessly
Cav army takes out rRifle
eCav vrs 1/3 rRifle - we win and generate a GL and capture city with barracks and aqueduct

Battle at Xinjian
take 3 cavs to kill 2 rifles (no losses) and capture the city

Cities
Pass 1- rush 3 temple
Pass 2 - none
Pass 3 - none
cycled thru cities - change a few builds - MM a few cities to not starve

IBT - IRQ and AMR sign peace /TE against us by IND and CART ends / our people want the Pentagon / FRA ironclad near our transport city / WOW, resistence in Paris and Dijon ends in 1 turn / add section to palace / no counterattack from FRA other than the ironclad
settlers 1
temple 4
library
workers
harbor
cavs 2
aqueduct

Turn 4 - 990AD
rush an ironclad in Qingdao to deal with the FRA ironclad
rush a worker in Dijon - it will be size 1 after worker next turn
Paris flip chance is 9.7 to 23% - will rush something expensive next turn (in disorder currently)

Battle for Avignon (size 10 on hill)
cannons can't keep up so I move in with cavs
vCav vrs vRifle - we take cannon shot and die flawlessly
vCav vrs vRifle - we redline and retreat, inflict 1hp
vCav vrs vRifle - we redline and retreat, inflict 0hp
vCav vrs vRifle - we die flawlessly
eCav vrs vRifle - we die after inflict 2hp but they promo to 3/5
vCav vrs rRifle - we redline and retreat, inflict 0 damage
eCav vrs rRifle - we win down 1hp
vCav vrs 3/4 vRifle - we redline and retreat, inflcit 1hp but it promos to 3/5
vCav vrs 3/5 eRifle - we die but redline unit
vcav vrs 2/4 vRifle - we die flawlessly
vcav vrs 2/4 vRifle - we win and promo to elite
eCav vrs 1/5 Rifle - we win and capture city with aqueduct and silks (not new)

Realize we don't have an embassy with BAB - establish one - they are 9 turns from completing US

we have a few 3/3 cavs - check to make sure no cavs from cities w/o a barrack

the FRA ironclad is messing up my reinforcement plans - I had to load 4 cavs at sea so no chain and I had to leave another 4 in the city, don't want to risk them being the galleon that is sunk

Cities
Pass 1- rush 3 temple
Pass 2 - rush 1 harbor
Pass 3 - none
cycled thru cities - change a few builds - MM a few cities to not starve
draft 1

IBT - the FRA ironclad attacks our stack of galleons and it dies / another FRA ironclad and a galleon sail by near Leif's Hideaway but we have some cavs in that area / resistence in Rouen ends
settlers 6
temple 4
library 1
workers 1
harbor 1
cavs
aqueduct
ironclad 1

Turn 5 - 1000AD
rush a temple in Rouen - cost 2 pop - down to size 3
rush a library in Paris for 4 pop - down to size 6 - should be able to rush a temple next turn as well
Paris flip chance down to 4.5 to 10.6% before poprush
land 8 more cavs in Dijon

Battle for Lyons (size 12)
vCav vrs vRifle - we deflect cannon shot, redline and retreat - inflict 1hp
vCav vrs vRifle - we redline and retreat, inflict 0
vCav vrs vRifle - we redline and win
vCav vrs rRifle - we redline and retreat, inflict 1hp
vCav vrs rRifle - we redline and die,while redlining them
eCav vrs 3/4 vRifle - we die after redlining them
eCav vrs 3/4 vRifle - we win
eCav vrs 2/4 vRifle - we die they promo to 3/5
eCav vrs 3/5 eRifle - we die flawlessly
4/5 eCav vrs 3/5 eRifle - we redline and win
rCav vrs vCav - we redline and win
I'm out of troops that can attack and there is one redlined rRifle in defense
move in more troops for next turn

Cities
Pass 1- rush 6 temple
Pass 2 - rush 1 harbor
Pass 3 - none
cycled thru cities - change a few builds

Stopped here - this could be a good time to switch to COMM now that we control the Pyramids. The French counter attacks have been almost nonexistent so I think they have mostly defensive units. France is out of Anarchy, they went Comm. and we are still average to them, although I suspect that will change in the next few turns. We are prepared to take Orleans which might be Frances only supply of horses.

Handoff report
1) turns are long, even with CivAssist
2) I'm thinking the 5 turn play is good so that we don't become complacent, but feel free to take 10 if you can
3) granaries are starting to become full so our pop growth is about to increase dramatically which should aid the poprushing
4) Libraries are getting harder to complete because we can usually build settlers quicker and since we have plenty of land to settle into I've stayed with the settlers
5) France has a frigate and a galleon near Leif's Hideaway and another pair near Gades
6) Lyons is down to a redlined rifle but I moved in 13 more units so it should fall next turn
7) I've got another stack ready to go after Orleans (Colossus and Newton's) but we may be short some cavs there
8) Ships were in position for chaining but they need to be lined up - I had to scatter some of them due to the FRA ironclad
9) you should be able to disband the worker in Paris next turn and rush a temple this should get Paris down to about size 2 or 3 and lower the flip risk some more

 

[DJMGator13]

Team tao just posted ten more turns - looks like they've almost leveled out at about 1000 cpt. We should be able to get a much higher rate.

We control 1600 tiles and at 4 tiles per city we could build 400 cities and with only temples and libraries we would be at 2000 cpt. So hopefully we can catch them now that we are about to go into poprush fever.

 

[leif erikson]

Looking good Gator!!

Thanks for all the detail in your turn log. I'll see if I can use some of that to do some practice in Gator01 later this evening.

I agree that we should keep building towns and temples and libraries for as long as we have space. This may help to keep the maintenance down if we can do it fast enough. Now there is a real need for speed to get the culture points going.

Look like we are on our way, nice job Willow and Gator!!

 

[WillowBrook]

Nice job, Gator!

(I completely forgot about ship-chaining - only used it for the first time in COTM 09.)

According to MapStat, Paris, now at size six and not resisting, has a 4%-9% chance of flipping with 5 units in the city, and requires 25-51 units to completely prevent flipping. But we'll capture two neighboring cities, complete a library, and rush something else in the city next turn (a settler + plus starving, for example, would have it down to size one the following turn), so I imagine that the flip chance and needed units will be much lower in another turn or two.

Two Questions for the Team
1. Should we jump our capital to Paris?
2. When should we switch to Communism?

My Votes
1. While a capital jump would ensure no flip, I'd vote for waiting until it reaches size 1 (one or two turns from now, depending what the next player decides to rush) to see what the risk is, and if it only needs 15 or 20 units, ship over some more drafted rifles and just hold it. This will allow us to stay in despotism (see next answer) without violating GOTM rules.

2. We should go to Communism soon, but I think we should wait until we have enough troops to take out France (as pointed out earlier, this will completely eliminate the French flip risk). My vote would be the turn our military advisor says we are strong to France, we should switch governments. This will allow us to save up more gold and consequently stay in Communism longer, with more cities to take advantage of the lack of food penalty, before having to switch back to despotism. In the meantime, I'd say we should keep pumping out cavs in productive cities (those that have, say, ten or more sheilds per turn).

Addition to Gator's List of Things to Do With Cities Each Turn
Perhaps this can just be a modification of the 6th pass, but each turn we need to check not only if a town is having to use a 0 or 1 food tile and needs to do a partial rush, but also make sure that towns are using the biggest sources of food available. And if anyone wants to be really anal, micro-manage so that towns are getting 2, 5, or 10 fpt (or at least NOT 8 or 9 fpt) (other than new towns filling up their granary for the first time - they should get as much food as possible).

EDIT: In case anyone was wondering, there's no domination-limit problems if we take out France - they have 465 tiles of territory, and we're 1322 tiles from domination. They also have some pretty nice land and the 9th lux we need.

 

[DJMGator13]

In my log on the IBT, if there is no number after the improvement it means we did not build any. I was copying the list and adding the numbers as they were completed.

I think Willow's suggested timing for the government change is good, waiting till France is weak. That was part of the reason I did not change because I was not sure how effective their counterattack would be. But it seems the earlier dogpile on them really did a number on their offensive ability. This should probably occur within the next 10 turns, possibly in the next 5. So I don't think it's a long time to wait.

We definately need to start cranking on the culture, once we change to COMM we gain some shields in all these 1 shield cities so that should help speed things up.

EDIT: I was only able to draft 1 rifle. I forget what the requirements for drafting is. Does the city have to be larger than size 6? I rarely draft units in my games because I'm usually dealing with war weariness in Republic.

 

[AlanH]

Well played, Gator! Excellent progress vs France.

Gyathaar UP
AlanH - On deck
Tomoyo
leif erikson
WillowBrook
DJMGator13 - just played

I agree with WillowBrook's proposed timeline, and it seems reasonable to try to hold Paris without a palace jump. That leaves us free to revert to despotism, and to re-establish our existing productive cores, as and when we require.

Have fun Gyathaar.

 

[WillowBrook]

Drafting requires a city to be at size 7. And since it takes much longer to grow from size 7 to 8 than size 6 to 7, and since our cities are generally dense enough to use any tile a size 7 city would otherwise use, I think we should pretty much always draft when a city reaches size 7. (Beijing may be the only exception, though I did draft it down.)

A modification to my suggestion 2 posts up: we may want to put all towns with 7 or more shields on cavs, rather than 10 or more shields as I suggested - just make sure they all have barracks. Better to have too many troops and finish France off quickly than having to take time to rebuild and suffering more flips than necessary.

More thoughts on drafting
-Cities that are not growing past size 6 due to lack of aquaduct (rather than, say, because they keep pop-rushing stuff) should probably build one ASAP, as every time a city grows from size 6 to 7 we get a free unit.
-While we're fighting France, drafted units should probably be sent over there to speed the quelling of resistors and free up cavs.
-If a city has 10 extra food by the time it reaches size 4 or 5 (won't happen much before Communism removes the food penalty) so that it gets 1-turn growth, we should build it an aquaduct if it needs one, let it grow to size 7, draft, and then pop the next thing (most likely a settler).
-I think I posted this before, but if a city is not pop-rushing settlers or buildings (this would be just our productive cities at this point), DON'T set it to 1-turn growth from size 6 to 7 with the intention of drafting every turn - it will suffer too much draft unhappiness too quickly. Let a neighboring city use the extra food and give this city five extra food for 2-turn growth and everyone will be much happier.

We definately need to start cranking on the culture, once we change to COMM we gain some shields in all these 1 shield cities so that should help speed things up.

If I understand correctly, (I forget who posted it earlier), Vanilla civ's sucky Communism will result in pretty much every city being thoroughly corrupt due to the size of our empire - please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Gyathaar]

I've been using CivAssist to identify cities for pop rushing and then MapStat to jump to the city (quicker than using F1 screen to find city since it doesn't arrange alphabetically in Van Civ)

You can jump to a specific city by:
Press Shift-L
keep pressing the first letter in the city name till the box finds the city you are looking for.. eg. for finding Edo, press 'e' untill Edo is highlighted.. then press enter

 

[DJMGator13]

I knew about the Locate City (shift L) but I did not know that you could type the first letter. Thanks that should help.

I've already request to Dianthus that he modify the Happiness tab so that it can be sorted. Using the F1 key to find cities in Van Civ is a pain since they are not alphabetized.

 

[Mistfit]

1st spoiler has been opened for business. I have a feeling it's going to go something like... Capture another city....kill its citizens add a temple/lib rinse repete....

 

[AlanH]

Anyone feel like exercising their literary muse and drafting an entry for the first spoiler? If not I'll write a quick summary - it'll have to be short, 'cos I think most of the brain cells that remembered this game are dead and gone.

 

[DJMGator13]

Your mangled brain cells have represented us fine in the past. Pop a pain pill for the foot and type away.

BTW, I hope the healing process is going OK.

 

[WillowBrook]

I'd make an attempt, but whatever hit me last Friday is still hanging around (mostly in the form of a runny nose, occassional coughing fits, and thinking at half speed), so I'll vote for Alan posting us something.

Good luck!

 

[AlanH]

For laughs, I built a spreadsheet to model a possible trajectory for our culture curve to intercept Tao's. My guess is they are going to hit 100K around 1400 AD.

I don't know how valid my model is, but it says we'd better get our culture rush going *now*, and we'll need to build between 20 and 25 culture buildings per turn for the next 35 turns, then tailing off after we finish building temples. I'm therefore a bit concerned about delaying a switch to communism.

 

[Gyathaar]

For laughs, I built a spreadsheet to model a possible trajectory for our culture curve to intercept Tao's. My guess is they are going to hit 100K around 1400 AD.

I don't know how valid my model is, but it says we'd better get our culture rush going *now*, and we'll need to build between 20 and 25 culture buildings per turn for the next 35 turns, then tailing off after we finish building temples. I'm therefore a bit concerned about delaying a switch to communism.

Yes, I have been running some projections too, and end up with pretty much same result.. except in my numbers I get they will win around 1425AD

 

[Gyathaar]

A question.. any clue what to do under GOTM rules if we end up in a situation where we start to run a deficiency at 100% tax in despotism too? Do we have to start selling off buildings to get to 0gpt, or let the game disband units and abandon buildings?

 

[AlanH]

Yes, I have been running some projections too, and end up with pretty much same result.. except in my numbers I get they will win around 1425AD

I didn't do any kind of accurate projection on their end date, I just guessed it by eye from the curves. I was more interested in the mathematics of the pop rush. If their game is going to end 5 turns later than my guess then that's good.

GOTM rules do not allow us to run a negative cash flow deliberately with zero treasury. We have to try to balance the books. Allowing the game to sell off one building at a time is an exploit, as it usually doesn't come near to matching the deficit when players are doing it deliberately.

 

[DJMGator13]

I've got a side question. Is there a chart or a formula for determining how many shields you get for disbanding a unit, and does it differ between Civ III and C3C?

 

[Gyathaar]

You get 1/4 of the cost to build the unit, rounded down, when you disband it.

So a warrior or worker gives 2 shields when disbanded, an explorer 5 shields, eurosword 12, rifle 20, infantery 22 and so on