Shadow Game for an Old Dude

[Fippy]

Not sure how detailed shadow threads should be, AH would be fine on that level but the "pro" move would be:
waiting until t5 with selecting your tech (pick random tech when asked, and de-select before ending each turn),
tech progress is not lost until then but must be careful cos if misclicked or so on t5 they are lost.

2 reasons for doing so (good habit on high level play, can be frequently seen from Lain i.e.):
a) more info gathered while scouting, in this case for animal resis that make AH more valuable
b) if an AI (or more) are met during those 5t, you get a very small research bonus for mining.
Can be called shadow teching, already known techs by others are a bit cheaper for you, this can matter more later when techs get expensive and is very liked in multiplayer.

Also worth mentioning that knowing both hunting & agri speeds up AH by 20%,
so has reduced cost compared to most starts.

..aaand that mines & hammers are worth more with imperialistic, i.e. a mine on pigs would be ~7 yield tile for settlers.
I would say that pushes it more in favor of BW first, with pigs pasture not actually being that much better early.

But too much detail probably, should this go into spoilers?

 

[lymond]

Excellent stuff, My Yeah, I meant to mention the hold of selecting tech for 5 turns thing. No need for spoilers...good stuff to consider.

 

[OldDude]

Hey guys thanks again for all the tips.

So anyway, I had to stop and go watch my Rams beat the Chargers and then finish watching Tiger win the Tour Championship.

I restarted the game and chose to research Mining/Bronze Working first. Right now I've got 4 turns until BW comes in. I'm thinking AH should be next for the pigs?

Since this leader is not Creative, should I then go for Mysticism so I can build Monuments in new cities to get some culture going for border pops?

Spoiler William Right Next To Me :

 

[lymond]

Congrats to the Rams. My Birds lost a heartbreaker in OT to the Aints. Ofc, when I was little I hated the Rams for some time before they realigned the divisions.

I'm going to try to play this one briefly to get a feel for it. Some others may play along later too.

For now, I'd say the general verdict on Mysticism and Monuments is that you avoid it if possible. The idea is settling cities better so that you don't need the border pops for a while. However, there are two things to consider here. first you got to look at the land, or the sea, and see what your city prospects are. Second, Cyrus is Char so Monuments give an extra happy on top of the trait's extra happy, so that is always nice...more whipping.

Right now, you only show really one clear city nearby and that is the Fish spot, which obviously will need a border pop. But settling that city timing wise is still TBD.

Which leads me to scouting. Whether Warrior or Scout, your first priority is scouting a radius around your cap for potential spots. 10 tile radius is good rule of thumb to go by...then the scout or warrior spawnbusts areas outside your borders near these spots.

Looks like your scout got a little happy and decided to scout the world. But really , by this time, the areas SW/S/SE should already be revealed. I'm hoping that there is some seafood to the West there. If so that might be a good spot with sharing of Pigs without even need of Fish or Monuments for a while.

Willie is a bit close for comfort, so that is something to think about too.

Let's wait for BW to arrive first to see what is revealed as well as getting your Scout sweeping S - SW to reveal land below you. Regardless, you can't go wrong really with The Wheel next.

As for builds, finish that warrior (probably send him N above the Fish to stand - that PH up there is good spot. Grow at least on pigs for the mine next and may chop a settler at size two - you can try finishing second warrior and grow to 3 or stay at two. Not sure of timings of builds growth. With chops after the pig mine, the IMP trait will give a fast settler with those two improve strong tiles.

 

[OldDude]

Thanks man. I've been a Rams fan since when they USED to play in the LA Coliseum so it's great to have them back. Sorry about your Falcons. They're a good team but off to a rough start.

Anyway, I got to BW right after farming the wheat and revolted to slavery. Also built a mine 1S of my capital. Moved my scout as suggested and have a warrior on the PH. So you're suggesting I mine the pigs? Would I farm them after AH? Currently building the wheel.

Spoiler South and Southwest :

 

[lymond]

Ok..I played a few turns a got a feel for the timings.

Appears BW will finish same time as farm is complete. Getting worker to pigs tile is two moves. However, with BW in you can start a chop on the way. So move worker 1NW to forest tile and chop it. Still grow on warrior, but switch to settler to catch the chop hammers. Then move worker to pigs to mine and finish settler while working wheat and mined pigs. Worker can then chop forest 1S of pigs tile.

I did more scouting and I believe there is a clear first spot to settle that is not seen at the moment in your game. I got two settler out around 2600BC

edit: always hate seeing teams move. Rams never shoulda left LA..nor the Chargers SD (ha even though they started in LA actually).

 

[lymond]

we cross posted and it looks like you moved on and did some different things.

Actually moving 1SW to chop was not necessarily bad, but I would have moved to pigs next for mine instead of mining that grass hill. Mined pigs tile is strong cause of the 2 food.

And don't revolt to slavery yet as you are not going to use it short term since you are chopping. You can switch when the first settler pops. That way that new city will never experience the Anarchy cause the settler is on the move.

But why I had you move 1NW is that is a flat grass river tile and will be cottage later ...better to rid that forest first.. plus helps with movement north later for workers settlers. (So think about the food on tiles even non-specials early vs. food deficit tiles like the hills)

 

[lymond]

Oh..and I should clarify that since you had moved 1SW and meant chop instead of mine. Mine will indeed remove the forest and then place a mine...the forest will give the 20h. But you did not time the chop I believe into something important like settler. DO NOT CHOP into warriors..big no no.

Chop is faster and faster is the key.

edit: and..yes..for now I would advise to hold for advice first ..at least for now..unless we have to plan out some turns for you.

But I must emphasize that all these little decisions, although they may seem arbitrary to you now, are actually hugely important and one of the main reasons for your lack of success.

 

[krikav]

Some random thoughts:
I don't really see any good spot to settle that doesn't require a borderpop, so if I would start to expand I would probably try to fit in myst somewhere soon.
Wilhelm is so close and we don't have alot of land so I have difficulties seeing a play that doesn't involve an quite early attack on him.
Commerce is quite low, so pottery should be bumped up in priority.
I think I might go for another worker, there is so much chopping to be done. But if we run out of worthwhile things to build I would think of pre-chopping and roading forests.
I think that I would postpone both myst and fishing and rather get both pottery and AH before them. The few "ok" city cites we have I see no rush to settle.


Regarding mining the grassland hill, or moving onwards to the pigs to mine that tile.
The pigs become a 2F 3H tile, while the grassland hill is 1F 3H.
Both tiles cost 2F to work, so the gain from the pigs are 3H, while you get -1F 3H for the hill.
Pigs give 3 while the hill gives 2, or pigs 50% more gain.
The only thing you save by mining the hill is possibly one workerturn.

 

[krikav]

Mining pig hills are pretty commonplace.
So common that whenever you see pigs on a hill, the option should be considered and evaluated.
You get a 5 yield tile (which is quite good) instead of a 6 yield tile, but it enables you to postpone AH which is an extremly costly tech early in the game.

Both Fippy and Lymond seem to be of the opinion that it's the best practice here on this map.
I'm not as convinced, but I'm not as a strong player as they are either.

Mine the grassland hill or lose another workerturn to mine the pigs?
If you want to calculate on it, a workerturn in the early game is worth roughly 5 hammers per turn. (it takes 4 turns to go into a forest and chop it for 20 hammers, 20/4 = 5)
You lose 1 turn by going to the pigs, so that can be approximated with a loss of 5 hammers.
So you really need to work the mined pigs 5 more turns to make up for the loss of a workerturn.

If you first mine the pigs, and then "farm" them, you have lost 5 turns, wich is worth 25 hammers. So if we plan on going AH shorly after BW (maybee wheel first) then it could be that it aint worth it to mine the pigs but instead just mine a grassland hill and wait for AH.

 

[OldDude]

So many little considerations that I never thought about before. No wonder I can't beat Noble!

Anyway, I went back and reloaded the game before I revolted to slavery and mined the hill. I followed your (lymond) advice so now I have 2 chopped tiles, a mine over the pigs, and 2 settlers sitting in my capital. It is 2720BC. Build went back to warrior and researching Pottery(?). I'll hold for further advice.

krikay: thanks to you as well! Interesting and useful stuff.

Spoiler 2720BC :

 

[Snowbird]

No wonder I can't beat Noble!

and 2 settlers sitting in my capital. It is 2720BC.

Lol.

 

[2popbulb]

Not sure how detailed shadow threads should be, AH would be fine on that level but the "pro" move would be:
waiting until t5 with selecting your tech (pick random tech when asked, and de-select before ending each turn),
tech progress is not lost until then but must be careful cos if misclicked or so on t5 they are lost.

This 5t waiting is for normal speed,but is it the same on marathon?

 

[krikav]

Nice going OldDude!
I assume that you are letting those settlers sit in the capital, since we have not yet have had any discussion about where to settle your first cities?

In some circumstances, it's best to postpone settling new cities, but in almost all of the cases you want to settle your new cities as soon as the settlers arrive at that location, and they should be sent there as soon are they are built.
A warrior (or some other escort) should ideally be at the thought city location fogbusting preventing barbarians to spawn there.

Where would you settle your cities now and why?

 

[lymond]

Hah...yep..that first settler should already be settled - between deer and copper down south. Probably should have stopped right when 1st settler finished and posted up.

krikav - I'm not sure I see any need for AH right now. I think TW>POT was the right play here.maybe even Myst next to catch fish or just go straight to writing. And no..I don't see this loss of hammers you describe even going AH sooner or later. The power of that tile would have been working for you for quite some time before any change necessary.

I think second spot should be on the furs to the SW...city can use deer some for a time, while copper city takes advantage of the copper

A road 1S of Pers and 1N of deer/copper (PH) should get trade routes to both new cities.

OD - I'd have liked to see a bit more city growth between settlers ..using warriors to grow and catching chops with the settler

While I generally don't like to emphasize early warfare in learning games, I'm considering the possibility of putting Willie down after copper is online.

Next item from Pers should be a new worker, after growth to size 3.

hmmm...did you whip something?

edit: OD ..where did your warrior and scout go. Scout could have stayed to the south for a bit waiting for settlers...keeping that area clear. Idea here is that you are keeping your immediate surroundings safe from barbs for settler travel. This comes even more important on higher levels.

 

[OldDude]

Yes I didn't send the settlers out because I wanted to get thoughts on their placement. I was thinking the spot S, 1W of the Copper so I'm glad you concur. I know it's not a good idea to have these settlers just sitting there but I figured I'm learning here. For the 2nd settler I'm thinking either on the furs to the south or 4N 1E on the coast to grab that fish resource.

I've always played so that I expand out towards my opponents to grab as much land as possible before they get it. Thoughts on that?

I'm glad you're thinking about taking William down early as I was thinking the same things. He's awfully close.

I'll wait for further thoughts. Thanks again everyone!

 

[Fippy]

I tried using my awesome paint skills

Spoiler :

Copper in good position here, no border pop needed and another plains hill settle for an extra hammer
Even without attacking Willy this would be the best spot i think, looking for important tiles in the first ring of cities = always good (unless creative).
Deer counts as weak food resi, but will do.

This 5t waiting is for normal speed,but is it the same on marathon?

no idea, not playing mara.

 

[krikav]

What are your thoughts about the spot NW of the lake near Wiliams place? It grabs a copper and a floodplain in the inner ring, it has freshwater and will eventually be able to work the corn and another floodplain.

 

[krikav]

Also, I settled the fur in a try, and was much suprised that it had traderoutes right away, even w/o sailing.

 

[lymond]

Also, I settled the fur in a try, and was much suprised that it had traderoutes right away, even w/o sailing.

did you have copper city settled first and connected? that would give route with cultural borders (coastal and/or river)


Yeah, My's idea of just settling on the PH 3 S makes more sense. I was thinking of whales, but that is really irrelevant. Much better choice settling the PH with only 1 road needed

My + Paint =

So OD, to expand on My's nice picture, rivers connect cities for trade routes, which are very important by the way (internal and foreign even more). However, as My demonstrated, there is a gap between that river to the S and the new copper city. A 1 tile road placed in between will make the connection from Pers to the river and, thus, to the new city. Also, note that having the road placed first before the city is settled means the trade route is instant, if you have the Wheel teched.