[BTS] Shadow Game on Emperor with Ragnar (This time I'll stick to the end!)

[CGQ]

Yup cities like Haitabu whip their granary and library, and sit out the penalty on cottages and scientists while you have no happies.
Can be annoying early but a great spot longterm.

While some game hints suggest "avoid unhappy citizens at all cost", that's not what experienced players do. They are basically just -2 food each which is unimportant if you have enuf.

I would look at getting a city in between Birka and Hait before Cathy does, can also take wheat while Hait has no use for it.

If your cap isn't great for commerce, bulbing Philo is often best.

What would be quickest way to bulb Phil? What do I do with it when I get it?

 

[CGQ]

Spoiler Played to Turn 98 :

Turn 83 I run into a bit of barb trouble, like Gumbolt warned me about:

I whipped granaries in both Uppsala and Hait. Hait is now working on a Library.

My scout retreats back and the chariot, battle worn from a previous fight positions himself just right so he can heal then strike the archer. Our newest south city BJO is getting threatened by an archer too.

The fortified Woodsman I warriors sliced throw them, and the workers finished the mine, just in time for BJO to work them. Meanwhile settler is finished next turn at capital:

Worker builds roads to connect gems. Another worker is also building a road to hook up the 2nd gems:

I start building Trading Posts in capital and Uppala. Settler heads off to settle our next city:

Several workers head to the FPs to cottage them for our new city:

More barb problems:

Turn 89 I have settled Jelling and begins to work the wheat while workers cottage the FP. I will chop a library to get the rest of the FP and help push against Cathy's creative culture:

Just got currency. I trade IW with Ramasses for Mysticism and 50 gold. Not sure if it's a good trade but I know the AI techs IW anyways so it would save me a turn or two. Correct me if I'm wrong. Uppsala works on another settler:

Capital finishes trading post, I build wealth to get Math in 4 turns:

Chariots kill the archer from earlier.

I whip library in Hait:

Chariot kills another barb archer:

Settler about to arrive as well as Math. Will settle fish/iron city and use the corn to grow. This seems like a nice production city:

450 BC I get Math:

I'm going to go Meditation > CoL then bulb Philosophy.

Workers road up to the new city that's about to be settled next turn:

Turn 98 Roskilde is founded. It will grow into the mine while I build a library with the help of a chop:

How's this so far? If I made any big mistakes I'm willing to replay turns.

 

[CGQ]

I really don't like low sea level setting. You will be swarmed with barbs soon.

Yup, no kidding. Why does low sea level cause that though?

 

[Fippy]

Sorry for the late reply, sometimes we can trade for maths and go CoL before (Philo bulb).
But i play deity and have no feel for the chances on Emp AIs.

 

[Gumbolt]

Yup, no kidding. Why does low sea level cause that though?

More empty land means more barbs can spawn in the fog. Maps can be very random if you don't include more Ai on those settings. Maybe not so bad on emperor but likely still an issue.

A save would be nice at some point.

 

[lymond]

Furthermore, Philo gives you one of the most powerful civics in the game

 

[CGQ]

More empty land means more barbs can spawn in the fog. Maps can be very random if you don't include more Ai on those settings. Maybe not so bad on emperor but likely still an issue.

A save would be nice at some point.

Forgot to attach it, sorry guys

 

[CGQ]

Furthermore, Philo gives you one of the most powerful civics in the game

Here's the save from last game.

 

[CGQ]

Furthermore, Philo gives you one of the most powerful civics in the game

Have you taken a look at my last turnset to turn 98? I just teched math since no one else had it.

 

[sampsa]

Looked at the T98 save. Things are going pretty well and I don't think you are in any kind of trouble.

Of course things could be improved a bit. One thing I really don't understand is no library in capital. Palace is generating 8 and the +1 -cap also means that it's often one of the best -cities. Here you are also above -cap working a horrible 4-tile (for example a scientist would be much much better). 3-popping a library would be a no-brainer for me (I would've also done it immediately when available).

You seem to be slow-building settlers/workers. After a granary, you really should always aim to whip them due to the way the granary "shortens" the food bar. The handling of Jelling could be significantly improved. Go granary first and try to finish is asap (chop+1-pop whip)! Granary is a lot better than a library. You are cottaging a plains tile instead of a floodplain. 2 is a LOT better than 1!

I guess now I'd get CoL+medi to bulb philo, then get monarchy via trade and switch to HR+paci. Caste can probably wait and you have already invested in several libraries.

 

[lymond]

Absolutely concur with sampsa here. Just having Nidaros sitting there building wealth at size 7 with unhappy and not having a library there much sooner is a huge waste. You need to prioritize this more, and as sampsa say try to get that Lib in asap after writing.

Also, just sitting there with cities unhappy is not good. It's fine growing into unhappy if you plan to immediately use the citizens for a whip, but don't just sit there unhappy when you could have managed that easily. Run specs are build another settler or worker.

I might get one of these chariots out exploring maybe through Russia.

You have plenty of expansion opportunity here, I would not slack off on that.

Worker 1W of Jelling..why? you have an FP to cottage or better yet chop that gran in Birka.

Build granaries first including Roskildes. Culture not much of concern there sharing corn, and if it was I'd probably go with a Monument there if fish was needed.

Mine in Bjorg questionable. I might be exposing those sugars in expectation of acquiring Calendar soon, plus it is food.

Always make sure your trading resources. Extra copies sure, but anything you feel you don't need at present...even single copies.

Keep an eye on tech trades. Compare with gold available. Doing so will show you what AIs are teching once they start hold back in obvious value. Trade for gold when you can. Also, consider begs or 40-60 gold with please/friendly AIs...you can do this every 20 turns at least.

 

[CGQ]

Absolutely concur with sampsa here. Just having Nidaros sitting there building wealth at size 7 with unhappy and not having a library there much sooner is a huge waste. You need to prioritize this more, and as sampsa say try to get that Lib in asap after writing.

Also, just sitting there with cities unhappy is not good. It's fine growing into unhappy if you plan to immediately use the citizens for a whip, but don't just sit there unhappy when you could have managed that easily. Run specs are build another settler or worker.

I might get one of these chariots out exploring maybe through Russia.

You have plenty of expansion opportunity here, I would not slack off on that.

Worker 1W of Jelling..why? you have an FP to cottage or better yet chop that gran in Birka.

Build granaries first including Roskildes. Culture not much of concern there sharing corn, and if it was I'd probably go with a Monument there if fish was needed.

Mine in Bjorg questionable. I might be exposing those sugars in expectation of acquiring Calendar soon, plus it is food.

Always make sure your trading resources. Extra copies sure, but anything you feel you don't need at present...even single copies.

Keep an eye on tech trades. Compare with gold available. Doing so will show you what AIs are teching once they start hold back in obvious value. Trade for gold when you can. Also, consider begs or 40-60 gold with please/friendly AIs...you can do this every 20 turns at least.

Spoiler Went back and replayed from 81 to 102 :

I went back and did things a bit different. This time I whipped granaries as soon as I had the chance and got the library into my capital as soon as possible.
I feel this trade is to my benefit:

Cathy "begs" for ALPHA which I give her to get her to "Pleased:"

I trade ALPHA for IW with Joao:

Workers immediately start mining gems:

I whip settler in capital and will whip another in Uppsala:

Several turns later I whip the other settler and he makes his way down to settle the wet corn. I figure if I chop a Library and Monument it should help push Cathy's culture back:

Roskilde is settled, this time south instead of the fish in the north. It will work the pigs for fast growth. Meanwhile I tech towards CoL, which much to my dismay, Egypt somehow beat me to it:

Of course, Cathy takes my wet corn with her creative culture, which I expected. Luckily, I settled there knowing that with all those forests, I can quickly chop a library and monument:

I 1-Pop whip granary in BJO and position my chariots for the barb archer.

Library and Monument are built. My culture begins to increase on that plot.
Aww Cathy that's so sweet of you to improve that nice wet corn for me!

Joao asks for Mysticism which I give to him and make him pleased:

A couple turns later, the tile flips! I can use the corn and pigs to grow and either work a bunch of riverside cottages or run multiple scientists with caste system + PHI. Which one is better?

Roskilde grows into cottage:

Ugh this chick I swear...
Guess she's pissed that I took her wet corn lol

I bulb Philosophy in 275 BC:

The settler in Uppsala will settle the fish/iron city this time.

My plan now is to convert to Taoism, then Pacifism and hopefully get Cathy to convert with me too since no one seems to want to give me Confucianism. Later on I'll convert to Hereditary Rule + Caste System to take even more advantage of Pacifism. I figure I should stay in slavery to take advantage of it, since with Monarchy I'll have more happiness to take more advantage. Should I do that or just convert to Caste System + Pacifism now, Taoism then HR?

 

[CGQ]

Furthermore, Philo gives you one of the most powerful civics in the game

Do I switch to Pacifism right away? I went back and redid turns to fix the issues

 

[CGQ]

Furthermore, Philo gives you one of the most powerful civics in the game

Have you looked at my last turn-set? I but I really wanna get better at this game

 

[lymond]

Hey CGQ - Sorry I'm busy with SGOTM at the moment...takes much of my early evenings. May be able to look at some things later tonight.

 

[lymond]

Ok..looked at last save a bit. Begging excuse me a bit as I've sorta lost the plot here. Anyway, I will spot some things that could be better or I'd like to see.

First off, and I mentioned before but I just don't understand the obsession of letting cities grow and stand in unhappiness. As mentioned, you can grow into unhappy very temporarily if you plan a whip.. unhappy city guy is worth the same 30H as a happy city guy. But don't just sit there with unhappy guys.

Keep in mind that you pay for unhappy citizens.

Upsala I really don't understand but will return to it. Hait on the other hand is so simple. The city is sharing tiles with another. Simple to keep it either at size 4 with two scientists or plan to whip. Right now that city looks silly. But you could 3 pop a settler outta there in 3 turns..then just manage the growth.

Upsala can whip a settler next turn ofc. It is a great city, but why let it grow into 2 unhappies. Could not you rather keep some scientists running there. No reason not to keep as many scientists as you can run in cities and it slows growth and costs. You really need to manage these things better and try to "manage around the unhappy" rather than simply live with it.

I guess Roskilde is okay but you chose a border war with Cathy while iron/fish N of Upsala should have been settle a 1000 years ago or so. AND I really don't like to see Birka losing its food. Speaking of Birka I"m baffled that it sits there with a Library yet in over a 1000 years of existence has yet to get its granary. Birka is no where near what it should be.

Nidaros ..whip the LH and be done with it...then grow back into scientists. Some grass cottages working around Nidaros may have been worth it.

Bjorg can build a worker for now...you will need it and it can get chopped next.

So bulb Philo is nice but there is not much you can do with it without reli spread. Unfortunately you have not been Confused, mainly due to the fact that you have no trade routes with Ram. Granted not such an easy task if he is otherwise not sending mishes your way. Jungle barrier may not have helped.

Problem was exacerbated by the fact that your coastal cities point inward. Iron/fish early on would have solved this with an early scout workboat around the W coast. Or simply road to Rambo, but that is not exactly efficient move here with that barrier.

You really don't want to be in Tao but maybe temporarily if you run a golden age, but getting Conf would have been nice and facilitating that from an earlier standing would have been ideal. In expectation of Philo I would have started the process of spreading a reli asap.

No point in switching to Paci until you have a) adopted a reli b) have some decent reli spread at least in good food cities. And you want to be in Caste as well when you adopt Paci.

Oh, and you really need to cognizant of trading resources ASAP as soon as you can with the AIs. Trade anything you can do without and most certainly extra copies. That is an easy and key diplo maneuver.

Anyway, as a general holistic overview kind of synopsis so far, is that I see some good things here, but there is still a lot of work in how you manage things. From a "timings" standpoint I see some things happening earlier. Granted this is Emperor (right?) so the AIs are slower than I'm accustomed to. Trade options are not great here and you don't yet have Currency which I'd really like to see you prioritize earlier. (Note I played a few turns from your save just to fix some things going Currency next ofc, which really opens things up for you, but that could have been sooner) On this level, when you get more savvy with things you will start to "prop" up the AIs a bit techwise. Lastly, one thing that really would have helped you here sooner is in someway facilitating those open trade routes to Joao and especially Rammy. (I did find a coastal barb city on the West coast in the fog which is problematic but simply a chariot scout through Russia and on may have helped this..much much sooner than now) Think of this, besides not being able to get infected with Conf you missed out on quite a lot of foreign trade routes for many many turns.

 

[Fippy]

Yep unhappy is fine with plans how you use that pop.
Haitabu i.e. can also whip a settler and you only need 10h.
Best approach here would be preparing those 10h at size 5 already.

There are some good city spots left for that one and Nidaros settler, fish + shared corn above Nid and Iron + Oasis + Incense (mostly cos it's close and Oasis counts as good tile with Fin).
1E of oasis picks up a shared corn, Bjorgvin would have double sugar later.
Double fish + horsies west.

AIs are shockingly slow here, like Joao not even has Medi or Poly so not picking Monarchy..
Calendar would be a good tech for you next.
You are basically too good for Emp and on Imm all of this should have worked better (Reli spreads from Ramsie, Monarchy trade).

When i was at that stage i dropped such games and picked a higher difficulty.

 

[lymond]

When i was at that stage i dropped such games and picked a higher difficulty.

Wait! You were at that "stage"...I can't imagine..I thought you went straight to awesome

 

[Fippy]

I once thought Bowmen are awesome units

 

[CGQ]

Yep unhappy is fine with plans how you use that pop.
Haitabu i.e. can also whip a settler and you only need 10h.
Best approach here would be preparing those 10h at size 5 already.

There are some good city spots left for that one and Nidaros settler, fish + shared corn above Nid and Iron + Oasis + Incense (mostly cos it's close and Oasis counts as good tile with Fin).
1E of oasis picks up a shared corn, Bjorgvin would have double sugar later.
Double fish + horsies west.

AIs are shockingly slow here, like Joao not even has Medi or Poly so not picking Monarchy..
Calendar would be a good tech for you next.
You are basically too good for Emp and on Imm all of this should have worked better (Reli spreads from Ramsie, Monarchy trade).

When i was at that stage i dropped such games and picked a higher difficulty.

Ok..looked at last save a bit. Begging excuse me a bit as I've sorta lost the plot here. Anyway, I will spot some things that could be better or I'd like to see.

First off, and I mentioned before but I just don't understand the obsession of letting cities grow and stand in unhappiness. As mentioned, you can grow into unhappy very temporarily if you plan a whip.. unhappy city guy is worth the same 30H as a happy city guy. But don't just sit there with unhappy guys.

Keep in mind that you pay for unhappy citizens.

Upsala I really don't understand but will return to it. Hait on the other hand is so simple. The city is sharing tiles with another. Simple to keep it either at size 4 with two scientists or plan to whip. Right now that city looks silly. But you could 3 pop a settler outta there in 3 turns..then just manage the growth.

Upsala can whip a settler next turn ofc. It is a great city, but why let it grow into 2 unhappies. Could not you rather keep some scientists running there. No reason not to keep as many scientists as you can run in cities and it slows growth and costs. You really need to manage these things better and try to "manage around the unhappy" rather than simply live with it.

I guess Roskilde is okay but you chose a border war with Cathy while iron/fish N of Upsala should have been settle a 1000 years ago or so. AND I really don't like to see Birka losing its food. Speaking of Birka I"m baffled that it sits there with a Library yet in over a 1000 years of existence has yet to get its granary. Birka is no where near what it should be.

Nidaros ..whip the LH and be done with it...then grow back into scientists. Some grass cottages working around Nidaros may have been worth it.

Bjorg can build a worker for now...you will need it and it can get chopped next.

So bulb Philo is nice but there is not much you can do with it without reli spread. Unfortunately you have not been Confused, mainly due to the fact that you have no trade routes with Ram. Granted not such an easy task if he is otherwise not sending mishes your way. Jungle barrier may not have helped.

Problem was exacerbated by the fact that your coastal cities point inward. Iron/fish early on would have solved this with an early scout workboat around the W coast. Or simply road to Rambo, but that is not exactly efficient move here with that barrier.

You really don't want to be in Tao but maybe temporarily if you run a golden age, but getting Conf would have been nice and facilitating that from an earlier standing would have been ideal. In expectation of Philo I would have started the process of spreading a reli asap.

No point in switching to Paci until you have a) adopted a reli b) have some decent reli spread at least in good food cities. And you want to be in Caste as well when you adopt Paci.

Oh, and you really need to cognizant of trading resources ASAP as soon as you can with the AIs. Trade anything you can do without and most certainly extra copies. That is an easy and key diplo maneuver.

Anyway, as a general holistic overview kind of synopsis so far, is that I see some good things here, but there is still a lot of work in how you manage things. From a "timings" standpoint I see some things happening earlier. Granted this is Emperor (right?) so the AIs are slower than I'm accustomed to. Trade options are not great here and you don't yet have Currency which I'd really like to see you prioritize earlier. (Note I played a few turns from your save just to fix some things going Currency next ofc, which really opens things up for you, but that could have been sooner) On this level, when you get more savvy with things you will start to "prop" up the AIs a bit techwise. Lastly, one thing that really would have helped you here sooner is in someway facilitating those open trade routes to Joao and especially Rammy. (I did find a coastal barb city on the West coast in the fog which is problematic but simply a chariot scout through Russia and on may have helped this..much much sooner than now) Think of this, besides not being able to get infected with Conf you missed out on quite a lot of foreign trade routes for many many turns.

Spoiler Played to the end :

Yup, I was super bored yesterday and I kept playing the map. The game was pretty straight forward as it went on but obviously I could've won much sooner. I'm going to do a new game, this time in Immortal, like Fippy suggested.

To summarize what happened, here's some bullet points:

- I actually bribed Cathy to convert to Taoism by spreading it with that free missionary to her capital (Moscow). After that she became my bestie (I always thought Cathy was the hottest leader in this game, followed Isabella and Boidica)
- As soon as I converted to Pacifism, Taoism spread to 2-3 more of my cities. At that point I had most of my important cities Taoism. I later traded for Monarchy then switched to Caste + HR
- Because me and Cathy were Taoists, Rammy and later Joao both declared on Cathy and the war went on for many centuries. Meanwhile Cathy is now "Friendly."
- Doubled Bulbed education and astronomy, and explored the world. Later I got first to circle world achievement.

The other continent:
- Thank God I wasn't in the other continent. The other country had all the raging war-mongers featuring Monty, Charly and good 'old Shaka. Pretty much all of them were at war and it was evident before I met them since I kept getting "Great General xxx was born in a far away land" messages.
- I took Cathy's Marble tile by building culture and also secured stone. I used EDU to whip universities (got music first and used GA for Gold Age, then switched to slavery) then I built Oxford in capital pretty quick. At this point my tech lead was huge and I was #1 most advanced in the world.
- I built Taj Mahal in Capital. I actually played and reload the game, where the first time I delayed Lib as much as I could as an experiment. 1500 AD and no AI still had it! I actually popped communism with it!
- During all this, I captured two barb cities using a couple swordsman and chariots. They were jungle cities but I turned them into cottage towns.
- On the reload I just got Military Tradition, whipped Cuirs (I had 14 Cities at that point). My bpt was very high and I was able to get rifling before I attacked. I also switched to Theocracy for the free XP.
- Cathy, who basically wanted my babies at this point asked me to become her vassal, which I agreed. (She must've seen my power rating skyrocketing). Since she was still at war with Portugal and Egypt, this caused me to get automatically involved. It didn't matter since I already had over 20 Cuirs.
- Thanks to great merchant, After taking two of Rammy's cities, I upgraded all my cuirs to calvary. I went on to get back at these two bullies for picking on Cathy.
- By the late 1600s, I have wiped both Egypt and then Portugal out.

- Egypt's capital (Thebes) is insane. Not only did it have lots of food, it had about 6-7 great prophets settled in, which produced a huge amount of hammers. I was able to build just about everything and by time I was done with power plants, it produced over 400 hammers per turn!
- Gigi on the other side beat me to a few techs but since I had 28 cities and a vassal with 9 more, I out teched him very quick. My BPT went past 2000 then 3000 (and I was making +100 gold at 100%!)
- I moved the palace to Thebes (built in just 1 turn) and switched to Bureaucracy for fun. Over 700 hammers per turn and I was able to finish Apollo program in 4 turns!
- I used Universal Suffrage to buy a lot of buildings including labs once I got superconductors.
- Built all parts, used Thebes insane production to build wonders (The Internet, Three Gorges Dam, etc.) and a few space parts.

- Finished all parts then launched spaceship in Turn 342:

Turn 351 I win space race:

Score was kind of pathetic but I expected it. I got 100K by domination in a monarch game a while back.

Thebes reached size 29!

Notes:
- Man the game really drags on after I conquered my continent. It was super tedious and I just wanted it to be over. The depressing modern era music certainly doesn't help either lol. Now don't get me wrong, it can be fun too but it's a lot of management when it comes to that many cities.
- I conquered my continent around 1600s, which is later than Gumbolt's suggested 1300s so I know I still have much to learn.
- I cannot wrap my head around how it's even humanly possible to go to space at 90 BC. There's so many parts and techs I just can't imagine how it's possible at least for me
- I'm ready for immortal. I want to win sooner now.

I know I got a little carried away with this game and I'll definitely be more patient in the immortal one.
I attached saves from several points in the game:
580 AD: About to conquer barb cities. It took forever to march those swordsmen across the jungle!1
1680 AD: Just conquered continent.
1932 AD: One turn after victory.

Check them out and let me know what I did. The next game I'm starting about 5 minutes after typing this and I really want to do a livestream on YouTube one of these days and you guys help me out possibly. I'm going to take what I learned from this game about the whipping and angry citizens and apply it next game.