Shadow game

[5tephen]

Update to T127.

Bit of a delay - I spent too long thinking about this game and needed a few days off - sorry for the delay.

Spoiler Directing Charlie :

Spoiler Not getting any friendlier with Isabella... :

Perhaps I should have sought advice here - war on two fronts would have been bad but in hindsight, Hannibal is kind of irrelevant, is clearly my next target and probably wouldn't have sent a stack at me. The problem was I only just about had enough stack to go at Pacal and I couldn't really spare units for the south west if Hannibal had decided to attack me. Would have been nice to have got some diplo going with Izzy - she pretty much hates me now.

Spoiler Smart trade? :

Figuring I had enough axes but nowhere near enough money I traded my copper to Mansa. Whipping down so many cities, health hasn't been a limiting factor and I thought 10 GPT for corn seemed good.

Spoiler Turn the stack around :

Getting these medieval 1 move per turn stacks to turn around is no quick job. Here I am on the edge of Uxmal. I lose 3 catapults taking it.

Spoiler Garbage land :

Looking at Uxmal, my economy and the cultural pressures around, I decide the best thing is to raze it. After which with Charlie having accumulated war success with capture of a city and Pacal down to 3 cities I decided the time to cash in on some techs before he capitulates to Charlie is now. I tried to get all the tech for peace then whittled it down to sailing, IW and alpha but still now. I tried substituting his gold for sailing but the best I could get was IW and alpha which seems good nonetheless. Alpha in particular clears my bulbing path.

Again, it may have been a mistake but I had to put my great scientist research into something and slowly accumulated points into currency during my invasion and then used capture gold to finish it. It's a significant boost to my economy 18 per turn from an empire that only produces 104 per turn. Ability to build wealth is useful too. I didn't want to put to many into tech that I thought Pacal would give me as that seems to be limiting the value of tech extortion.

A problem now is my only potential trade partners are Zara, Mansa, Charlie and (maybe, maybe) Pacal. Hannibal doesn't like me in the first place and will hate me for the imminent DOW. Zara has compass and Hannibal and Mansa have philosophy. So, if I bulb compass, I could expect to get calendar and some but probably nothing else. If I bulb philosophy I would have to tech meditation, CoL which is quite some way off but might be able to get monarchy, calendar and metal casting/compass for it... Getting back in the trading game is proving quite a challenge! Current thoughts are get stop actively teching but put my from GS into sailing to open up calendar and allow possibility of compass bulb but keep my powder dry on bulbing for now and see what I can extort from Hannibal. Plan B will be use GS for golden age.

Spoiler We have iron :

 

[5tephen]

Spoiler Next moves :

My stack is mainly based in Lakamha and on the corn. I need to heal for a turn or two. Still pumping out more units with a focus on elephants and catapults. After I improve the iron or if I take back the copper I could produce some gallic warriors but not convinced they add anything?

Hannibal looks weak and that gold looks good to me after all my whipping. Pity Hannibal didn't go full Sampsa and settle on the gold as if I get the city I'll need a border pop to utilise it. Looking at his stack in Kerkouane and the fact that Izzy is at war with him (hence his stack should be fighting her) I'm thinking I'll threaten Kerkouane but bombard it down whilst ~2/3 of my stack move onto whatever his next city is. Ideally I think I'd take 2 cities on one turn and then peace out for a decent tech offer before he capitulates to Izzy.

After that I suspect I'm about as far as my current tech will take me and the next milestone will be engineering. Considering guilds, gunpowder, chemistry (?bulb), steel as my overall route although a bit of smaller techs to get on the way. Beaurocracy would definitely be good with iron for macemen. No chance of bulbing lib, golden age for sure with one of the scientists, hopefully a merchant in the golden age to upgrade some trebs to cannons.

In terms of victory conditions:
- AP doesn't look hopeful
- culture is impossible
- UN unlikely - likely I could be friends with Charlie through religion and civics, am always afraid of Zara, Mansa and Izzy probably not going to be my friends and likely to capitulate to Charlie or Zara if we have a shared war
- time victory on deity - just about impossible
- domination/conquest this is my goal and looks like my best bet - going to have to keep the Buddhist block happy, hope I can somehow prevent Izzy, Hannibal and Mansa all capitulating to Zara or Charlie and then stab Zara/Charlie in the back without ending up in simultaneous war with the other - looks challenging
- defeat - entirely possible!

All thoughts appreciated.

 

[krikav]

Get as much of Hannibal as you can while the getting is good.
But I would not overdo it on the whipping, see what you can do with the army you have, maybe supplement abit on catapults and maybe a pair more elephants.

If Hannibal folds to Bella, an oversized army risks being without work for quite some time, so getting population and infrastructure up might be more sensible now.
If opportunity to backstab Bella, or perhaps go for Mansa (I think he could be a possible target next) arises shortly, then going on a whipping frenzy is still an option.

Engineering or maces is probably not needed, elephants are strong. Next big military thing you should aim for is probably cuirs I think.
Economy looks much much better now! How does the aestethics->music line look for trade purposes?
Sometimes the AIs are super slow to drama.

 

[5tephen]

Thank you both for the input.

Get as much of Hannibal as you can while the getting is good.
But I would not overdo it on the whipping, see what you can do with the army you have, maybe supplement abit on catapults and maybe a pair more elephants.

If Hannibal folds to Bella, an oversized army risks being without work for quite some time, so getting population and infrastructure up might be more sensible now.
If opportunity to backstab Bella, or perhaps go for Mansa (I think he could be a possible target next) arises shortly, then going on a whipping frenzy is still an option.

Engineering or maces is probably not needed, elephants are strong. Next big military thing you should aim for is probably cuirs I think.
Economy looks much much better now! How does the aestethics->music line look for trade purposes?
Sometimes the AIs are super slow to drama

Good points - once I'm into whipping an army, cooling off isn’t my forte! Whipping frenzy on Bella/Mansa would be elepult still? Cannons are my favourite and cuirassiers are second place, I'm less experienced in earlier wars and I always thought feudalism killed catapults? Regards backstab, are we talking about if I could war bribe someone on them?

Cuirassiers is awkward with no horse but it’s generally possible to trade with someone. At least I have iron.

Is it possible to set up 2x bulbs for trade baits ? Bulb Compass, then bulb Philo ? Zara has Optics, Mansa and Carthage have Philo but maybe that's what you need to get up to Civil Service ?

Probably, I hadn’t considered this. Will have a closer look at the save but should be possible to research sailing, bulb compass, trade CoL and meditation, bulb philosophy and trade that. Definitely expensive on the GSs but I guess they’re of diminishing value if I can’t escape the tech hole.

sailing, IW and alpha is not a great bounty from Pacal but it helps.

And I couldn’t even get sailing .

Consider a switch to Caste System. You're SPI, need the GPs.

Will do once I can get CoL.

Bibracte is a terrible city for commerce. Consider moving the palace if/when you have the opportunity.

Chichen Itza? Would probably involve whipping OF into palace.

It pains me that this thread was named Shadow Game and No Shadow were provided :/

Never too late for someone to show me how it should have been done or for me to rename the thread to learning game! An observation from years of lurking is that deity shadows put people off a bit from commenting - I discussed my reasoning for going deity at the start of the thread but immortal would probably have been more likely to lead to more shadowing.
In all honesty though, I'm just really grateful for having received so much input, especially when there’s been a few breaks in play and I've learned loads which is the point of the thread.

I'm going to check back in around 24 hours for any further ideas.

 

[krikav]

I did start a shadow briefly, but since Charly didn't found Buddhism, and Pacal settled in my face and founded hindu.. It was bound to become a completely different game so there was little point.

I didn't see there was no horses, but thats usually easy to trade for...
Feud doesn't kill elepult, it just makes it harder... There is a recent BOTM where I went up against a protective AI with longbows in a hilled capital, and that was w/o elephants... Numbers do magic.
Bella is starting to look large, and she has been at war a long time, doubtful if a war against her (alone) would be favourable.
I recon it's perfecly doable to roll over mansa with elepults still, he is usually so timid.
But first things first, see how much you can get from Hannibal.

What I would not advice is to go try self-tech along the feud->guilds->gunpowder line, you are bound to get very few opportunities to trade that way, and the benefits from the techs are likely not worth it.
If things really look bleak, I would just make academies in some good commerce cities rather than try to bulb and catchup with very thin offerings from trade. Game could get really long.

 

[5tephen]

Update - some good, some bad

Spoiler Buddhist AP - probably a good thing - I vote Zara, Charlie wins based solely on his own votes :

Spoiler DOW Hannibal, no beg from Zara - lesson from last time was that I should have begged 1GPT but I forgot :

Spoiler Disaster occurs :

Never saw this coming - by all rights these guys should hate each other. Charlie will be a monster now.

Spoiler Got really lucky :

I lost, I think, 1 catapult taking this city. Got very lucky that he got feudalism just as my stack was outside his city so he only had 1 whipped longbow with no promotions rather than upgrading his promoted archers.

Spoiler I actually added one more catapult and moved the stack to outside his next city before doing this but considered it a great general well spent :

Spoiler Bulbed compass :

This really hurts compared to philosophy from a position of tech strength but I got calendar, monarchy and gold for it. I was going to get Isabella to peace out with Hannibal for some gold but analysed the diplo/tech situation carefully and realised she couldn't trade IBT so waited a turn and she peaced out with Hannibal and I got more gold!

Spoiler Compass trades :

I know CoL was highlighted as a big goal for me last time but given I have both prerequisites and a bunch of overflow, I thought it was better to self tech that and trade for monarchy and calendar which are really useful for me with wineries and plantations already built in conquered land.

A question for the forum:
Does the AI consider prerequisite discounts when trading tech? i.e. I had the option to trade compass for 2 out of 3 of CoL, monarchy, calendar and monarchy. Would the AI have agreed with me in considering CoL less valuable as I have discounts on teching it from PH and currency or would it just consider the ticket price of the tech? I know they value techs known by only a few people or monopoly techs more highly and military/wonder techs more highly.

 

[5tephen]

Update 2. Ran out of screenshot space.

Spoiler 190 gold too :

Spoiler No losses :

What I didn't capture in screenshots is that Isabella had a stack outside his city with 5 catapults and an elephant. I bombarded the city to 0% and let her suicide all of that on him (after which she peaced out) and I took Carthage with no losses.

Spoiler This stack is going to get teleported to a bad location for me! :

Spoiler Pretty grim tech situation :

Spoiler Military :

 

[5tephen]

Analysis:
Mansa peace vassaling is a bit of a disaster but, in terms of opportunity, it's going to make Zara whom I fear militarily less pleased with Charlie, particularly if he capitulates Pacal, whom Zara is also cautious with.

Main risk of AP currently would be holy war with Isabella which I think I could deal with.

Taking the two cities off Hannibal is awesome. Kerkouane is a great city and Carthage has Mids and 4 settled great generals (i.e. level 4 units out the gate.)

My tech situation is dire with little prospect of further good tech trades via bulbs. However, I might be able to extort feudalism out of Hannibal, there might be potential to DOW Pacal again and extort more tech from him.

I feel The Pyramids could be enormous for me. Police state and representation on 5 turn cycles could boost research and unit production significantly. With 9 cities, I could whip 2 catapults and 1 elephant per city in a 5 turn cycle making me think Isabella is maybe not an unachievable target...

My temptation is to extort feudalism from Hannibal, tech to theology and then try to get to engineering. Theocracy and vassalage would help make me friendly with Zara and Charlie and massively experienced catapults to pursue war with Isabella.

Will wait 24 hours to see if anyone has any advice.

 

[krikav]

Woooah! Mids and two nice cities are quite a catch from Hannibal!
Tech should be perfecly OK now, you have 9 cities, some of them good and you have access to representation.

Hard to judge what would be the best tech path if you hope to get some trades... Feud doesn't do much since you also need MC->Machinery to go guilds->gunpower->chem->steel.
Music line still seems to have good trading value, and getting heroic in Carthage would be nice. Crank out CR3 siege there and you can supplement with whatever else from other cities.
It's concievable that continuing with that doomstack of yours toward either Bella or Zara, but it might be abit risky.
Just consolidating and tech to cannons is the safe play.
Then again... chipping away at some of them, getting just a single or a pair of cities before peacing out is likely safe too. Only thing to watch out for is a horde of knights, but with elephants and if you keep the stack together, that shouldn't be a problem.

Mansa vassaling to Charly is both good and bad, good in that Bella/Zara has a higher chance to DoW Charly, but problematic that you can't go for Mansa yourself.
Could you get a map somehow? Would make strategy abit easier if we would know the layout of the land.

Feud for diplo with Charly seems abit like a moot point, he is pleased with you, so diplo there is rock solid. You don't have any chance to get monopoly techs from him either because you have nothing to give.
Theocracy to make Bella less annoyed and possilby get a boost from Zara seems nice though.
Do you have any resource that Bella wants? Keep that available so she can demand it (She is up at 8/10 demand tribute). If you have any Hindu city, thats likely good too (10/10 demand religion change). Could be nice to get those 10 turns of peace from her.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Here, I give you some playie-playie (T65) :

Spoiler :

First, I'll confess I haven't read the whole thread. I did spot, in the early discussion, that Mr Trotsky favoured the coastal capital and so do I.
There are Islands, which are an awesome safety net on Pangaea. The Clams are not great early on but still a 5 food source long term.

So, settling coastal, we run more risk of getting boxed in. That's how it goes and we can already see culture pressure from Charlie and Pacal.
The map is very weirdly shaped with the 1 desert tile isthmus connecting to Charlie (2x clams + pigs city) and the long 1 tile coastline separating us from Zara.
Please note the insistance on scouting. We have a scout, which is basically an Immortal unit. Let's make the most of it.
We're CHA and have Gems, see Ivory, Dyes, Sugar, Silk, Bananas. Well, a way to Calendar has to be found.
The capital itself, and this is known on T0, is rather production poor. The gems don't help, except to speed up Bronze Working. We're doing 9H/t at size 3 towards a Settler.
So, Tech Path. We want Mining around T20 to start improving the gems. This means we cannot research Fishing -> Agriculture first and need to go Agri -> Mining. The workboat will have to be chopped at a later time.

Here, I delayed working the gems for 1 turn. Lost some commerce, gained 1 turn towards size 3. Here : can't afford to grow to 4 ; we'll need the workboat to do that.
So, size 3 is settler time. The worker will have 1 iddle turn between the mine and Bronze. Maybe working the gems all along was better, then.

The Warrior is now done and reveals the final tiles withing our reach. It is time to assert complete dominance over the map :

Spoiler :

I don't recommend putting signs all over the map, by the way but :
This is why you scout. Now we can make plans for cities 20 tiles away.

With Bronze done, I'm finally going Fishing (and then Wheel -> Pottery). So, the worker's chop will complete the settler next turn and...
... it will remain by Bibracte. Chop, chop, chop : another Worker and then a Workboat.
Can't send this guy over to Tolosa and leave Bibracte unattended. So, here, city 2 is a grab (can you see it ? ).

Spoiler :

This is a trek. I want some control over those western riches. I can backfill city 3 by the river & elephants.

Turn 40 and the second worker is done :

Vienne starts on Monument because why not ? It's possible Barracks could be better. Anyway : it grows to size 2 and will probably start on something else.

T42, The Wheel is done. It's time to select a tech between Sailing and Pottery.
Zara has settled a city and a Babarian city has spawned, so it's time to reduce our dotmap to a more reasonable size :

I promise I will remove all those signs. Here, we want Axemen and a Galley.
I'm not sure there's space to settle a city West of Vienne, because I do not know for sure the location of Zara's city. I will have to check that when I have a settler (Bibracte starts one at size 4).
The city 3W of Bibracte is no priority at all --> I'm not sure whether I want 1 or 2 inland settlers before going offshore. I could settle something by the bananas (2W) but I also consider this low priority : I'm not sharing the rice from Bibracte any time soon.
The question is whether I go Granary -> Galley or the reverse. I will be going Settler, first (8 turns build). Given the happy cap, maybe it makes the most sense to go Granary whip and then Galley whip. I wasn't too sure, hence the stop.

What in the world ?! Cheats !! I will not accept this !!

Spoiler :

I click it and it doesn't work !! I declare a bug !!!

It happened again
Charlemange, et tu ? You monster, what have you done ?! You ruined my spot !!

Spoiler :

I treat him like a brother and there he goes, bumps my worker from a forest.
Now I need to revise my dotmap again.
It's awkward. I want 3 inland cities and only have the production for 2 settlers.
I probably settle the bananas with the settler from Bibracte.
I want to settle 3W1S of Vienne with the other settler (have 2 cities put culture pressure on the gems and steal some 1st ring green cows from Zara)...
... and then I'll probably cry when Pacal steals mine own elephants So, I probably need to settle the Ivory with the settler from Vienne. It will be a miserable city for a while.
So, I should prepare for TWO settlers from Vienne.

Babarian Worker has been safely escorted to Carib. Hannibal is sending a settler party into the tundra.

I'll stop crying for a while. This is Pangaea. And contemplate the southern prospects :

Spoiler :

Fishes, Clams, my only friends, please don't betray me Together, we will build a paradise, in our very own and very private little corner of the world
So, there are at least 2 food sources and... I guess those are some amounts of islands to the East. So, Galley ? Yes.
The plan in Bibracte, here, is to 1 pop whip the granary. Happy cap allows it. Getting the Lighthouse will also be good, because I'm feeling very short on food, there.

To T60 :
Just executing the plan. City 3 is settled by the bananas and borrows the rice from Bibracte while... Bibracte 1pop whips its Granary.
Worker in the West goes chop, chop, in the hope I can get a 5th city to the west :

So, short term, those cities 3 & 4 are very poor but it seems to me they're important to secure. Because tiles.
Without Ivory city to set up, Bibracte's worker starts to cottage a little.

4th city on t60. Maintenance is starting to make itself felt.
Tolosa is showing grandiose promise, starting with a 20 turns worker (will be whipped). Gergovia works the lake like a pro (Vienne can't give away the corn, yet).
This all means (maintenance - securing land is important but we're crawling towards Writing, can't crash before then) that Bibracte starts the Lighthouse before the Galley. I know I've said "Galley, Galley, Galley" from T0 and there I am, "Galley-less", but those AIs are not showing mercy. They want to box us in.
Now, Zara is being cheeky and has a scouting Archer South of Vienne and I know he will not hesitate (he will not !) to send a settler party and try to steal my Dyes (mine own ones !).
I'm also starting to be a little worried that Vienne's settler will be too late to contest cow/gems. I need it before Zara reaches 100 culture in his city.

We really lack production. This makes this start pretty hard.
Like, I've said "Axemen", too, but where have all the axemen gone ?

Don't do it ! Zara, don't do it ! Don't you dare do it and pretend I didn't warn you ! Zara !

Spoiler :

Look who has a sneaky-sneaky little Galley. Charlemange also has a Galley but he is my friend, I forgive him, even though he stabbed me in the dotmap.
Zara I hate and will steal all cows and gems from him. He seems to like me, maybe he thinks I mistake him for Hammurabi. Hammurabi is the greatest, the most ancient and the better green leader amongst them all.

The time is now turn 65 and I discover the Spanish city of Libyan, a small settlement by the coast, hidden deep in the taiga. The Spanish are not very well liked, being Buddhist and all, but they are an enlightened people and invented the art of Writing, whose deep mysteries they hold jealously from the whole world.
Many things can be said about the Spanish and I sure am one to spread gossip but there is one thing we cannot take away from them : they do dwell nicely in the commercial affairs. Near Libyan, we meet a small tribe of fishermen who appear to have been granted the privilege to come and go freely within the borders of Great Spain.

Spoiler :

Ah, yes, I would love a fair exchange ! What wouldn't I give for a fair exchange ? I will propose, hum...
Also, good luck and fare well !