Shooting at San Diego Synagogue

[Hamid.H]

I haven't noticed any such unity of thought and opinion. I'm not sure what your source (or propaganda feed) here is.

umm, new deal coalition ring a bell?

its essentially what hillary tried to run on but she turned out to be a lyndon b johnson 2.0. the more progressive members of the party stayed home because she simply didnt offer them anything worth voting for.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Deal_coalition

the strategy really hasnt changed much. perhaps its time it did, but thats a conversation for another thread.

hh

 

[Hamid.H]

Well, LGBT issues are rather dealt with in the most heinous manner in the muslim world, so there is always room for improvement.

whats your point? that we cant improve until other places that are worse do? or was this some kind of passive aggressive jab at me because im muslim?

hh

 

[Kyriakos]

whats your point? that we cant improve until other places that are worse do? or was this some kind of passive aggressive jab at me because im muslim?

hh

It isn't a jab to say what is true. LGBT are anything up to executed in many muslim countries, so you can't be surprised that there isn't optimal handling of the situation even among self-professed progressives.

 

[Senethro]

It can most definitely be a jab. True things are true and all but you are implying some kind of meaning by asserting relevance.

 

[El_Machinae]

Well, LGBT issues are rather dealt with in the most heinous manner in the muslim world, so there is always room for improvement.

When I'm in criticism mode, I noticed that self-described liberals are very bad at crossing borders on this topic. My entire Facebook feed is full of people that describe themselves as allies. Some, I would describe as 'strong allies', eve . But none of them have made a single post about Brunei.

 

[Senethro]

So what? Make your full point. Don't just point at a thing and expect us to understand what you mean by pointing at it.

 

[El_Machinae]

So what? Make your full point. Don't just point at a thing and expect us to understand what you mean by pointing at it.

Not much point. I think people are bad at crossing borders. I don't think that people can think of a way to help the Brunei LGBT community, and so just ignore it. It's a dissonance, because the mental toolkit has no solutions.

*I* don't have a solution either, other than making enough noise that it gets political attention. But the crickets on my social feed astounded me.

 

[Kyriakos]

So what? Make your full point. Don't just point at a thing and expect us to understand what you mean by pointing at it.

I think he was pretty clear regarding the elephant in the room.

 

[Senethro]

I think he was pretty clear regarding the elephant in the room.

No, its worth stating your points in full. It enhances communication.

 

[Kyriakos]

No, its worth stating your points in full. It enhances communication.

Google ist dein freund. Eg Brunei^LGBT should do the trick

But maybe you don't want to, so here is a lazy video feed:

Stoning. Ok.

 

[Kyriakos]

LGBT issues is a problem in South East Asia, Africa, Caribbean and many other places. In SEA you got Myanmar or even Singapore who still get a problem with LGBT, and those are not Muslim country. Not to mention on international level, there are lot of countries who not exclusively Muslim who still have a problem about that.

To mention this issue to be attributed specifically to Muslim country is a jab, well even the Caliphate itself, the Ottoman empire, legalized the practice of LGBT since when? 1858?

The ottoman empire was always LGBT, though

Come on, you know it wasn't a jab against muslims. I have spoken against attacking muslims on account of religion many times already, and obviously that is a different issue.

 

[Synobun]

Not much point. I think people are bad at crossing borders. I don't think that people can think of a way to help the Brunei LGBT community, and so just ignore it. It's a dissonance, because the mental toolkit has no solutions.

*I* don't have a solution either, other than making enough noise that it gets political attention. But the crickets on my social feed astounded me.

Limited mental and emotional bandwidth necessitates picking your battles, even if your best contribution to the battle entails feeling like crap all the time about everything and posting aimlessly on social media.

As ineffectual an individual may be, they have more impact by being a number towards issues closer to home than they are by being a number towards issues further away.

A solution to this problem is to have a functional state department that takes diplomacy and foreign aid seriously. Making it someone's job to assess and influence these kinds of international issues gives you a productive outlet for general malaise regarding a social issue. On an individual level, you're best off clamoring for comparatively local reform and then letting the results of that reform impact other polities further away.

 

[Senethro]

Google ist dein freund. Eg Brunei^LGBT should do the trick

But maybe you don't want to, so here is a lazy video feed:

Stoning. Ok.

This STILL isn't you stating your actual point.

What do you mean by sharing this information?

 

[El_Machinae]

LGBT issues is a problem in South East Asia, Africa, Caribbean and many other places. In SEA you got Myanmar or even Singapore who still get a problem with LGBT, and those are not Muslim country. Not to mention on international level, there are lot of countries who not exclusively Muslim who still have a problem about that.

To mention this issue to be attributed specifically to Muslim country is a jab, well even the Caliphate itself, the Ottoman empire, legalized the practice of LGBT since when? 1858?

It's important to notice that the oppression is certainly very widespread. Would you guess if the fundamental reason for that oppression is similar, despite the surface differences of the different cultures? What is similar between Brunei and Myanmar, and what tools would be useful for attacking the underlying problem?

It's hard to defend the abrahamic faiths on this topic, considering we all pretend God told Moses to order their executions. Divine distaste was codified into the immutable text

 

[H4run]

@El_Machinae Myanmar general population is non-Abrahmic, they are Buddhist, while the Indian also arguably still have problem with LGBT rights while they are predominantly Hindu. I think it is the view of sex as solely a reproductive's tool made some culture seen sex without a reproductive means as a kind of perversion.

We even have a culture that view infertility as a cursed, because it doesn't "acts" as it should be (reproduction), I think it works within the same frameworks "sex=reproduction", sex or an act of sex that doesn't produce a reproductive outcome is treated as perversion, calamity or an omen.

If you read Freud theory of Sexual Perversion, you will be surprise that Freud actually build the conclusion of homosexuality as perversion under the same premise (IIRC, I read it during my undergrads). Even though Freud is an atheist that despised religion.

 

[El_Machinae]

A solution to this problem is to have a functional state department that takes diplomacy and foreign aid seriously. Making it someone's job to assess and influence these kinds of international issues gives you a productive outlet for general malaise regarding a social issue. On an individual level, you're best off clamoring for comparatively local reform and then letting the results of that reform impact other polities further away.

It is definitely a state department issue. Absolutely. But you need the political will, the political voice, to get your government to care enough to ponder interventions. I'm not commenting that we talk more about local issues, but more that literal state-sanctioned murder from far away didn't even enter their later. It's hard to figure out what is the contempt of low expectation and what isn't.

I get what you're saying about efficacy per unit of time spent. Definitely local is better. Canada is currently losing to the Trump successes, so I'm very aware about how local is necessary

But I think that the issue is not best explained by mental fatigue. I think that the tools aren't in the mental tool kit. By example, climate change, where the conservative movement doesn't actually have tools to deal with the issue. And so it doesn't come up.

I value the concept of mental fatigue, because it's important to husband it. But we have to be careful to not husband it so carefully that we allow it as an excuse for actual moral weakness.

 

[El_Machinae]

@El_Machinae Myanmar general population is non-Abrahmic, they are Buddhist, while the Indian also arguably still have problem with LGBT rights while they are predominantly Hindu. I think it is the view of sex as solely a reproductive's tool made some culture seen sex without a reproductive means as a kind of perversion.

I know that Buddhism failed the LGBT community in Myanmar. Just like Islam fails the LGBT community in Brunei. Unpacking the failure due to cultural reasons from the influence of the faith's weakness is very hard

 

[Kyriakos]

This STILL isn't you stating your actual point.

What do you mean by sharing this information?

It isn't a jab to say what is true. LGBT are anything up to executed in many muslim countries, so you can't be surprised that there isn't optimal handling of the situation even among self-professed progressives.

It is the removehay bible line, pretty much

 

[Patine]

umm, new deal coalition ring a bell?

its essentially what hillary tried to run on but she turned out to be a lyndon b johnson 2.0. the more progressive members of the party stayed home because she simply didnt offer them anything worth voting for.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Deal_coalition

the strategy really hasnt changed much. perhaps its time it did, but thats a conversation for another thread.

hh

There were a lot (but not all) American Liberals behind that, a lot of whom were Black, but I wouldn't say, even remotely, it was a product, agreement, or unison product of all WHITE Liberals at the time, because Caucasian peoples live in, and have political influence and stake, in significantly more countries than just the U.S. Here in the Canada, it was actually the Conservatives under R.B. Bennett's Government (1935-1940) trying to emulate the New Deal, but when the Liberal leader William Lyon Mackenzie King regained government in 1940, he had his own distinct plans for recovery from the Great Depression that were quite different. That doesn't sound like "solid unity between all White Liberals" on that issue just between the U.S. and Canada. And we haven't even addressed the great disparency of views on the issue of Depression relief by Liberal groups in European nations, Australia, New Zealand, or the minority government in South Africa. And because the original New Deal plan for Depression relief had no unity for "White Liberals," across the "White World," there, thus, was no "New Deal Coalition," outside the U.S., and certainly never encompassing the "White World," with all "White Liberals."

 

[Patine]

I know that Buddhism failed the LGBT community in Myanmar. Just like Islam fails the LGBT community in Brunei. Unpacking the failure due to cultural reasons from the influence of the faith's weakness is very hard

And has big church Christianity done for them? Despite being told by Christ to "love thy neighbour as thou would love thyself," "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us," "judge not lest ye be judged," and "let he who is without sin cast the first stone," all advancement in LGBTQ rights in the Western World has been in spite of big churches, and condemned by big churches every step of the way, to this very day. And Jews, as a religious group specifically, have not been any friendlier to the LGBTQ community. In fact, honestly, which major religion in the world has, from an organizational and hierarchichal point of view?