Should America open normalized relations with Cuba?

[potatokiosk]

Opening relations does not guarantee the freedom of Cuba, it only says that America has no principles, and that is not only acknowledges the communist government in Cuba, but sanctions it, by allowing it to exist, and by giving in to the embargo, after all these years.

Keeping relations closed does not guarentee any effect on Cuba's government, it only says that America will perform futile actions for the sake of its own idealogies. Yes, we will look a little silly if we give up after decades of embargo, but we will only be more laughable if we give up later.

 

[Gogf]

Im just tired of people *****ing about Communism and its evil... Every damn system has its evils. Every System has killed millions. Even Democracy (Hitler came to power through Democracy and politics so it can be blamed on the failure of the system more then the Fascism)

Actually, Hitler was appointed Chancellor.

 

[BEHIND_THE_MASK]

Actually, Hitler was appointed Chancellor.

My mistake there... But still... lets get back to Cuba...

My biggest question is based at the Bush Administration. and it helps prove they are in Iraq for the oil... If they wanna spread Democracy thoughout the World (i believe that was among their excuses) Then why not start with the one nearest... They wanna get rid of dictatorships well just go next door and kick ur neighbors in the balls.

 

[Gogf]

My mistake there... But still... lets get back to Cuba...

My biggest question is based at the Bush Administration. and it helps prove they are in Iraq for the oil... If they wanna spread Democracy thoughout the World (i believe that was among their excuses) Then why not start with the one nearest... They wanna get rid of dictatorships well just go next door and kick ur neighbors in the balls.

I don't see how normalizing trade relations with Cuba would help to spread democracy there. Cuba, and our policies concerning it, are a relic of the Cold War. Once Castro dies, things will change.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Well, I agree with u there... Communism wont work but I believe if done right, like Gorbachev was, it can atleast try and make things better.

It sounds to me like you're more of an advocate of Social Democracy, not Communism. I've no idea how old you are, but read up on Sweden, and tell me if you like what you see.

Though it would be easier just lifting the embargo... Let em have some fresh air.

They do have fresh air: the rest of the world trades with them, AFAIK only the US does not.

So I suppose that explains the U.S. embargo against China, North Korea, Vietnam, and Laos.

Oh, wait.

The United States didn't start out with an embargo on any of those nations in the same way or for the same reasons that it does Cuba. I've no problem with China, Laos, or Vietnam. They have got some human rights problems, but none of those nations are in the Western Hemisphere, as Cuba is, so its not a violation of the Monroe Doctrine, as Russia's support for Cuba was.

North Korea, though, is in its own ballpark, and we all know it.

If Castro were to die and a more democratic leader came to power and kept it a communist state. Would u then open relations? Ya could never know for sure but it looks to me that Fidel is at the end of the line.

If they could find a way to make a democratic communist system that really works, I'd have no problem with it.

As I said earlier, Communism has never truly existed, all nations aspiring to become communist have degenerated into dictatorships. Communism is an economic and social system, not a governmental system. America's enemy is these dictatorships, not socialist states themselves, why it labels these nations communist is beyond me, because its really against dictatorships. Most people these days don't know the difference, though, so communism and totalitarianism get lumped into one.

Castro is a dictator, and that's why he and his regime have to go.

Besides, a democratically communist state would become a social democracy, like Sweden or Norway, very quickly. We haven't shut off relations with them, have we? A Welfare-state Cuba I can live with.

Keeping relations closed does not guarentee any effect on Cuba's government, it only says that America will perform futile actions for the sake of its own idealogies. Yes, we will look a little silly if we give up after decades of embargo, but we will only be more laughable if we give up later.

So we should give up now? That's not a very sound argument, it just sounds like you're afraid of failure, and have a real lack of faith that Cuba will ever change.

 

[nc-1701]

Well to put it extremely bluntly, our strategy of waiting for Castro to die of old age! Is nearing completetion it would be such a waste to give up now when we are at our closest in 50 years.

There's no point in this embargo it achieves absolutely nothing I support a change of tactics 50 years of failure is way more than enough.

 

[potatokiosk]

So we should give up now? That's not a very sound argument, it just sounds like you're afraid of failure, and have a real lack of faith that Cuba will ever change.

Cuba hasn't changed after half a century of embargo. How much longer do we need to continue the embargo before you will admit that it accomplishes nothing? If we know it doesn't work, then we should stop it now to prevent it from being an even bigger mistake.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Cuba hasn't changed after half a century of embargo. How much longer do we need to continue the embargo before you will admit that it accomplishes nothing? If we know it doesn't work, then we should stop it now to prevent it from being an even bigger mistake.

Castro hasn't died, either.


By your reasoning, we should have given up the Cold War in 1965, because it had been going on for twenty years with "no progress" towards ending communism. Face it, George Kennan was right, the Soviet Union sowed the seeds of its own destruction, all we had to to was outlast it, and outlast it we did. The Communist Cuban regime will collapse, quite simply because it has to: Cuba sucks, and it isn't getting any better with them at the helm.

At the very least, we lose nothing by maintaining the embargo with Cuba, so what's the 'big mistake' of maintaining it again?

 

[CCA]

CUba does not suck, from my post in page 1 which every1 seems to have ignored:
Amidst all the anti-cuba propaganda someone has to play the Devil's advocate:

Why will Cuba suddenly become a better place once Castro has gone? At best it will become a Mexico; an alternative to Cancun, where American tourists travel to exploit the people. The Americans aren't going to pump millions in to aid the people. A US-backed regime in Havana would privatise health care, commercialise education and limit the opportunities that have been put in place for the people since the revolution. Amertican tourism to Mexico, Dominican Republic etc. does not make life better for the majority.

Of course Castro's Cuba is not the utopian socialist republic that was envisaged, but it is a damn sight better than the previous US-backed regime.

Better then many I'd say.
It has a very good health system. Thats by worldwide standards not just latin american or carribean standards. Decent quality of life, etc...
I hope when Castro and crew do go everything isn't destroyed in a revolution and instead Cuba just tones down to a social democracy.
But thats probally too much to hope for.

Cuba has the best health care system in the Caribbean and lower illiteracy than the US. They use ONLY sustainable organic agriculture. They import food, but export sugar - considering that in the near future, sugar=fuel, this might be to their favor. There is a saying in Cuba: "each night 20 million children go to sleep with no supper and no home, but none of them are in Cuba". The Cuban *people* would fight house by house to resist the US.

Basically, if you want to be rich, Cuba is a terrible place to be. But if you have to be poor, Cuba is better than the alternatives, possibly including the US. Cuba is #50 on the UN Human Development Report, out of ~200 countries. It's no paradise, but neither is it a failure.

As to the question, it'll never happen. The revolution is forever.

Cuba would be well-placed to shift into a social democracy now that communism has failed. The people are bright and the majority of Cubans don't want the system gone, they just want it changed to work a bit better - which wouldn't really be particularly hard. As mentioned, Cuba's social systems are rather good even by world standards, so if the country backs off on the Marxist-Leninist stuff it would probably be a decent place to get into business because of the bright people and smart government. Dictatorships generally survive longest in places with racial or social problems or where the population either by reality or by choice isn't very well educated. Neither is the case in Cuba.

Remember people what happened when the Soviet Union collapsed, Gangster Capitalism filled the void, it is only now that central authority is being slowly reasserted.

Conclusion: In almost every case when a socialist nation becomes capitalist, some things which are better preserved are lost..

 

[BEHIND_THE_MASK]

Castro hasn't died, either.


By your reasoning, we should have given up the Cold War in 1965, because it had been going on for twenty years with "no progress" towards ending communism. Face it, George Kennan was right, the Soviet Union sowed the seeds of its own destruction, all we had to to was outlast it, and outlast it we did. The Communist Cuban regime will collapse, quite simply because it has to: Cuba sucks, and it isn't getting any better with them at the helm.

At the very least, we lose nothing by maintaining the embargo with Cuba, so what's the 'big mistake' of maintaining it again?

True... we dont rly loss anything if we continue it...

But maybe if we ask we nicely we can get some Cuban Cigars

 

[Pasi Nurminen]

Done right like Gorbacheuv did? Are you high?

The Soviet Union doesn't exist (hold the "that was a good thing" oneliners).

Most states of the former Soviet Union are worse off economically now than before, notable exceptions being Belarus (with still the state owning most of the enterprise, I might add) and Kazakhstan.

Populations of Russia and Ukraine falling dramatically.

Social services in most former Soviet republics now nearly nonexistant,

Organized crime running the show.

Massive ethnic cleansing campaigns and civil wars.

Complete lack of stability, the Soviet Union no longer exists to counterbalance US imperialism.

Gorbacheuv was good...how?

 

[nc-1701]

Castro hasn't died, either.


By your reasoning, we should have given up the Cold War in 1965, because it had been going on for twenty years with "no progress" towards ending communism. Face it, George Kennan was right, the Soviet Union sowed the seeds of its own destruction, all we had to to was outlast it, and outlast it we did. The Communist Cuban regime will collapse, quite simply because it has to: Cuba sucks, and it isn't getting any better with them at the helm.

At the very least, we lose nothing by maintaining the embargo with Cuba, so what's the 'big mistake' of maintaining it again?

Embargoes aren't free they cost money to enforce. There is no reason to have an embargoe... We spend millions of dollars every year on useless programs that have broadcast propoganda without effect for the last 50 years... Cuba hasn't done anything against us since 1962. Face it their not a threat, and there's no reason that we shouldn't trade with them. I mean heck we even trade with other nations that we have fought even more recently like Vietnam...

Look it's time we stopped having our entire Cuba policy dictated to us by 500,000 illegals in south Florida.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

True... we dont rly loss anything if we continue it...

But maybe if we ask we nicely we can get some Cuban Cigars

I wouldn't mind trying a Cuban, but we don't need to end the embargo for that, that's what smugglers are for!


So what do you think of Sweden and Social Democracy, is that more along the lines of what you had in mind?

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Embargoes aren't free they cost money to enforce. There is no reason to have an embargoe...

I doubt it costs us money to NOT does something. I'd like to see the bill on that one.

We spend millions of dollars every year on useless programs that have broadcast propoganda without effect for the last 50 years...

Haven't had an effect YET. The Cubans haven't had a chance to really do anything about it, have they? When Castro dies, they'll have a chance, its up to them to end this.

I could argue that Radio Free Europe was a waste of money too, based on your point of view.

Also, the propaganda is independent of the embargo, I'm arguing for the embargo, not the propaganda.

Cuba hasn't done anything against us since 1962. Face it their not a threat, and there's no reason that we shouldn't trade with them.

I never said they were a threat. And Cuba's never done anything against us, that was the Soviet Union that did that, what with the nukes and all. As I said, this is principalistic, to acknowledge Cuba is to give up, admit defeat, and we quite simply cannot do that, there is no reason to do that.

I mean heck we even trade with other nations that we have fought even more recently like Vietnam...

We also signed a peace treaty with Vietnam, but good luck travelling there, even today to call it a pain in the ass is an understatement.

Look it's time we stopped having our entire Cuba policy dictated to us by 500,000 illegals in south Florida.

This is my opinion I'm arguing, not the government's.

 

[innonimatu]

Opening relations does not guarantee the freedom of Cuba

Oh, so the US only wishes the "freedom of Cuba", right? Guess what, the cubans themselves have set up their form of government, completely free from outside interference - apart from some US help to a doomed Batista regime in the 1950s.

Invoking the Monroe Doctrine while speaking about freedom of other American countries…. the Monroe Doctrine was about american imperialism replacing european imperialism.

I see you would like them to be "liberated" like Iraq... I'm sure they'd shower flowers upon that measly battalion of invaders you propose. I mean, the Cuban army hasn’t been involved in any protracted guerrilla war in the last 30 years and has no experience, right? You should run for the Rumsfeld award for strategic planning, if one is ever created.

 

[BEHIND_THE_MASK]

I wouldn't mind trying a Cuban, but we don't need to end the embargo for that, that's what smugglers are for!


So what do you think of Sweden and Social Democracy, is that more along the lines of what you had in mind?

I think Social-Democracy is a rather good system... it seems to work fine in Sweden. Personally I wonder how the USSR would have worked with this system...

And it sorta seems to me that China is moving in this direction (or more or less in a way towards a Transition to Democracy)

As for Cuba, waiting till Castro dies might be a good idea. Especially after telling us Russians to strike first with the nukes if war started... Though, I dont understand why if the Soviets wanted a defencive nuclear base like the US had in Turkey then why not just put in in Siberia, maybe to cold, bad climate...

Honestly everything I know about Communism and Governments is self taught. What I love about these forums is that everyone seems so Politically Intwined

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Oh, so the US only wishes the "freedom of Cuba", right? Guess what, the cubans themselves have set up their form of government, completely free from outside interference - apart from some US help to a doomed Batista regime in the 1950s.

Invoking the Monroe Doctrine while speaking about freedom of other American countries…. the Monroe Doctrine was about american imperialism replacing european imperialism.

I see you would like them to be "liberated" like Iraq... I'm sure they'd shower flowers upon that measly battalion of invaders you propose. I mean, the Cuban army hasn’t been involved in any protracted guerrilla war in the last 30 years and has no experience, right? You should run for the Rumsfeld award for strategic planning, if one is ever created.

Go away, you've nothing important to say here.

 

[amadeus]

Amidst all the anti-cuba propaganda someone has to play the Devil:

Edited for accuracy.

Why will Cuba suddenly become a better place once Castro has gone?

Because Castro will be gone.

At best it will become a Mexico; an alternative to Cancun, where American tourists travel to exploit the people.

Really? I went there to get see the sights and enjoy the weather; I guess I'm in the minority of American tourists.

The Americans aren't going to pump millions in to aid the people.

You're right; the aid would probably amount to the billions. (We already give Puerto Rico approximately $10 billion every year.)

A US-backed regime in Havana would privatise health care, commercialise education and limit the opportunities that have been put in place for the people since the revolution.

Which opportunities would those be? The opportunity to become a piss-poor dirt farmer, the opportunity to be a refugee floating on a rickety raft to Miami, or the opporunity to become one of Castro's conscripted goons? You've got to be more specific.

Amertican tourism to Mexico, Dominican Republic etc. does not make life better for the majority.

I don't see Mexico complaining about it.

Of course Castro's Cuba is not the utopian socialist republic that was envisaged, but it is a damn sight better than the previous US-backed regime.

If Castro is a damn sight better, then you are blind.

Better then many I'd say.
It has a very good health system. Thats by worldwide standards not just latin american or carribean standards. Decent quality of life, etc...

There are at least 55 countries and territories where the life expectancy is higher; included in the list are Bosnia and Jordan, two countries that aren't often recognized for their contributions to the medical sciences.

I hope when Castro and crew do go everything isn't destroyed in a revolution and instead Cuba just tones down to a social democracy.
But thats probally too much to hope for.

As long as El Presidente wears a green army uniform, Cuba will never be anything remotely close to democratic.

Cuba has the best health care system in the Caribbean and lower illiteracy than the US.

Both false. The U.S. has a higher literacy rate than Cuba and Americans have the option of reading whatever they please.

They use ONLY sustainable organic agriculture.

Of course; they can't afford anything better.

They import food, but export sugar - considering that in the near future, sugar=fuel, this might be to their favor.

If their agriculture is so sustainable, why are they importing food?

There is a saying in Cuba: "each night 20 million children go to sleep with no supper and no home, but none of them are in Cuba".

That's because they all left for Miami.

The Cuban *people* would fight house by house to resist the US.

Yes, and Kim Jong Il shot a dozen holes-in-one today.

Basically, if you want to be rich, Cuba is a terrible place to be. But if you have to be poor, Cuba is better than the alternatives, possibly including the US. Cuba is #50 on the UN Human Development Report, out of ~200 countries. It's no paradise, but neither is it a failure.

As to the question, it'll never happen. The revolution is forever.

"This Reich will last a thousand years!"

"Segregation today, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever!"

"We will bury you."

"Let them eat cake."

...

Cuba would be well-placed to shift into a social democracy now that communism has failed.

We have a winner.

The people are bright and the majority of Cubans don't want the system gone, they just want it changed to work a bit better - which wouldn't really be particularly hard.

The Cubans have always voted against communism, with their feet.

As mentioned, Cuba's social systems are rather good even by world standards, so if the country backs off on the Marxist-Leninist stuff it would probably be a decent place to get into business because of the bright people and smart government.

Considering that much of the world is populated by countries like Lesotho, Haiti, and Nepal, there's really no surprise in it at all.

Dictatorships generally survive longest in places with racial or social problems or where the population either by reality or by choice isn't very well educated. Neither is the case in Cuba.

That's because all independent thought is suppressed by the state.

Remember people what happened when the Soviet Union collapsed, Gangster Capitalism filled the void, it is only now that central authority is being slowly reasserted.

Putin has done a magnificent job, hasn't he?

Conclusion: In almost every case when a socialist nation becomes capitalist, some things which are better preserved are lost..

Like the Stasi, the Securitate, the KGB, the AVO, the STB...

 

[amadeus]

Gorbacheuv was good...how?

He accelerated the pace of communism collapsing into itself.

 

[BEHIND_THE_MASK]

He accelerated the pace of communism collapsing into itself.

I Can accept people insulting Stalin, in fact, I'll start it off...

But Gorbachev deserves some respect, had the USSR not collapsed, Wouldn't you want a leader like Gorbachev in the country... not another paranoid Stalin or Mao.