Should I refuse to serve in the settlements?

[civ_king]

A bad Jew? For what? I'm an American, America is my homeland, and my people live here. Sure, Israelis share a common heritage and religion with me, so I have some affinity for them, but they're not my countrymen. I don't speak their language, I don't share their culture (well, to the extent of which they don't share mine), and I've never been there.

If Mouthwash was going to spill his blood defending "the motherland", in reference to me, that would be America.



But you also hold American citizenship, correct? Get rid of the Israeli one and problem solved. That's what I meant.

Mandatory draft/service is something I always found terrible. Of all things that should be voluntary, military service is number one.

Zionism was sort of founded on the belief that Jews don't belong outside of Israel and they can't really be loyal citizens of other countries which honestly seems antisemitic to me.

It seems kinda strange that the US would allow a citizen to fight for a foreign military, or that Israel would allow a foreign citizen to fight for its military. Surely there's a matter of divided loyalties in there somewhere. Would this not in some way impact on your dual citizenship?

Given that almost all Israeli Jews are descended from people who moved there within the past century it is basically a necessity if they don't force people to renounce other citizenships.

 

[Commodore]

I am enlisting in the IDF by the end of the year, give or take a few months. I have also decided to engage in a boycott of settlement products. But as an Israeli soldier the likelihood is high that I'll eventually have to do service in a settlement or Palestinian town. Should I refuse? I'll be put in military jail and will probably alienate my relatives if they find out. And simply being put on watch duty or something isn't going to harm the Palestinians much more, but the fact is that I'm being complicit in it.

As a combat veteran of the United States Army I have to say if you are considering enlisting in any sort of military organization only to refuse lawful orders and duty assignments, then you are not soldier material. I vehemently disagreed with our involvement in Iraq, but I still enlisted knowing there was a significant chance I would end up there. Sure enough, my unit was deployed to Iraq and never once did I think of trying to refuse those orders.

You see, it is not a soldier's place to refuse or even question any orders or assignments as long as they are lawful. And it is not the soldier who gets to determine the definition of a lawful order. You just carry out the order to the best of your ability. Doing anything else puts your life and the lives of your fellow soldiers in jeopordy.

 

[Mouthwash]

Sure, that will probably involve compromising some high-faluting ideals I might have about this or that. But can I be certain that my ideals are really correct? Are they really worth taking a stand about?

I'm pretty sure that they're correct, mainly because the justifications for the settlements tend to blow with the wind. They really just make excuses.

It seems kinda strange that the US would allow a citizen to fight for a foreign military, or that Israel would allow a foreign citizen to fight for its military. Surely there's a matter of divided loyalties in there somewhere. Would this not in some way impact on your dual citizenship?

No. The philosophical implications are obvious, but I think only going into politics forces you to renounce your American citizenship.

But you also hold American citizenship, correct? Get rid of the Israeli one and problem solved. That's what I meant.

If it came down to a choice, I'd get rid of the American one. I identify with Israel.

Zionism was sort of founded on the belief that Jews don't belong outside of Israel and they can't really be loyal citizens of other countries which honestly seems antisemitic to me.

This is not true at all. Zionism is essentially Jewish nationalism. As far as I know, the fact that Turkish and French nationalism exists does not prove that those of Turkish and French descent can never be loyal to another country.

As a combat veteran of the United States Army I have to say if you are considering enlisting in any sort of military organization only to refuse lawful orders and duty assignments, then you are not soldier material. I vehemently disagreed with our involvement in Iraq, but I still enlisted knowing there was a significant chance I would end up there. Sure enough, my unit was deployed to Iraq and never once did I think of trying to refuse those orders.

You see, it is not a soldier's place to refuse or even question any orders or assignments as long as they are lawful. And it is not the soldier who gets to determine the definition of a lawful order. You just carry out the order to the best of your ability. Doing anything else puts your life and the lives of your fellow soldiers in jeopordy.

Yeah, it seems kind of self-defeating. I am definitely going, it's just a matter of whether I'll serve in the settlements. Although I'll probably just be on guard duty around the entrances, and won't be sent into high-conflict areas like Hebron.

 

[Commodore]

I'm pretty sure that they're correct, mainly because the justifications for the settlements tend to blow with the wind. They really just make excuses.



No. The philosophical implications are obvious, but I think only going into politics forces you to renounce your American citizenship.



If it came down to a choice, I'd get rid of the American one. I identify with Israel.



This is not true at all. Zionism is essentially Jewish nationalism. As far as I know, the fact that Turkish and French nationalism exists does not prove that those of Turkish and French descent can never be loyal to another country.



Yeah, it seems kind of self-defeating. I am definitely going, it's just a matter of whether I'll serve in the settlements. Although I'll probably just be on guard duty around the entrances, and won't be sent into high-conflict areas like Hebron.

Just remember to do your duty to the absolute best of your ability and serve honorably and you'll get through even the worst assignments.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Carrying a recording device to gather evidence of illegal orders and other activities would also be cool. I'm sure the IDF wouldn't have any problem with that.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Mandatory draft/service is something I always found terrible. Of all things that should be voluntary, military service is number one.

Israel is kinda outnumbered and surrounded by many enemies.
Plus the arab spring isnt exactly bring democracy to the middle east which is again in turmoil. 5 years service though is kinda a long time.

Just remember to do your duty to the absolute best of your ability and serve honorably and you'll get through even the worst assignments.

Just do what Republicans did during the Vietnam war
Remember war is romantic !

 

[Joecoolyo]

Zionism was sort of founded on the belief that Jews don't belong outside of Israel and they can't really be loyal citizens of other countries which honestly seems antisemitic to me.

I wouldn't say that's necessarily true. Definitely some believe that, but I think the majority opinion was the idea that Jews needed Israel as their homeland to protect them from persecution in others. The belief that we don't belong outside of Israel may just stem from a leap too far with the above idea.

But considering the hardships of the 18th, 19th, and 20th century, I can very much see why someone would think that.

This is not true at all. Zionism is essentially Jewish nationalism. As far as I know, the fact that Turkish and French nationalism exists does not prove that those of Turkish and French descent can never be loyal to another country.

Not all nationalism is created the same, nor exclusive to one idea. There can very easily be Zionists who believe what civ_king is saying, and considering what some Zionists believe, it definitely isn't out of the realm of possibility.

If it came down to a choice, I'd get rid of the American one. I identify with Israel.

Then what's the issue here? If you willingly choosing Israeli citizenship, then you are responsible for all the ramifications of that choice. If you can choose not to join the crappy mandatory military service system, but you choose to do so anyway, then there's no ground for your objection to certain aspects of that crappy system.

Israel is kinda outnumbered and surrounded by many enemies.
Plus the arab spring isnt exactly bring democracy to the middle east which is again in turmoil. 5 years service though is kinda a long time.

Aye, they are. Considering their fervor (and the fervor to support them here in America), I don't think they'd have much issue getting volunteers for their military.

 

[Kyriakos]

Hm, i take back what i said. Have fun in the settlements. Judging from your posts, you won't be returning here anytime soon

 

[Mouthwash]

Not all nationalism is created the same, nor exclusive to one idea. There can very easily be Zionists who believe what civ_king is saying, and considering what some Zionists believe, it definitely isn't out of the realm of possibility.

Religious Zionism often does, but what I'm saying is that isn't how Israel was founded.

Hm, i take back what i said. Have fun in the settlements. Judging from your posts, you won't be returning here anytime soon

What? What did I do?

I'll still go on Civfanatics when I have the time. Why not?

 

[Kyriakos]

^If/when you see some palestinian shot down, you are likely to not keep your current views for long, is all

 

[Mouthwash]

^If/when you see some palestinian shot down, you are likely to not keep your current views for long, is all

Um, seriously? I know how the settlements operate, I've been there.

 

[Borachio]

You see, it is not a soldier's place to refuse or even question any orders or assignments as long as they are lawful.

And here's where the trouble lies. How does a soldier determine which orders or assignments are lawful?

And it is not the soldier who gets to determine the definition of a lawful order.

Ah, I see. The soldier doesn't determine which orders or assignments are lawful.

Which kind of undermines your premise of "as long as they are lawful".

Let's be plain; and just call a soldier a zombie, then?

But maybe I'm being unfair here. To be exact you've said that a soldier doesn't determine the definition of a lawful order. This would seem more reasonable. So are soldiers issued with a check list (the rules of engagement?) of what constitutes lawful action?

Are they issued with clear rules on what constitutes insane order-issuing behaviour on the part of their superior officers and exact procedures for mutiny putting said officer(s) under restraint?

 

[NovaKart]

I also see a big difference between someone enlisting in the military knowing what that entails and someone who has no choice.

 

[Borachio]

I was talking to an old, retired soldier the other day. And though his service was long; and, apparently, by his own account, distinguished, he did maintain that he'd enlisted without any real knowledge of what it entailed; and he was vehement that he wouldn't have enlisted if he had known.

Most soldiers are very young, especially when they start. Just how equipped can they be to make rational choices?

(I should add, perhaps, that his main complaint was about the political reasons behind where he'd been deployed, rather than the actual action he'd seen.)

 

[civ_king]

I wouldn't say that's necessarily true. Definitely some believe that, but I think the majority opinion was the idea that Jews needed Israel as their homeland to protect them from persecution in others. The belief that we don't belong outside of Israel may just stem from a leap too far with the above idea.

But considering the hardships of the 18th, 19th, and 20th century, I can very much see why someone would think that.



Not all nationalism is created the same, nor exclusive to one idea. There can very easily be Zionists who believe what civ_king is saying, and considering what some Zionists believe, it definitely isn't out of the realm of possibility.



Then what's the issue here? If you willingly choosing Israeli citizenship, then you are responsible for all the ramifications of that choice. If you can choose not to join the crappy mandatory military service system, but you choose to do so anyway, then there's no ground for your objection to certain aspects of that crappy system.



Aye, they are. Considering their fervor (and the fervor to support them here in America), I don't think they'd have much issue getting volunteers for their military.

In Der Judenstaat Herzl says the Jews introduce antisemitism wherever they go. Things in the US haven't always been perfect, but they have gone fairly well, see three Supreme Court Justices, a number of Senators including both of California's. The US has a third of the World's Jews and theylive in more peace than Israel.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Morally: Of course you should given your moral axiom.
But since you are a human being what you really should ask yourself is if upholding this ideal is really worth it to you. Because chances are it in the end won't be. Cause that'd require a very special kind of moral conviction methinks.

 

[HannibalBarka]

Hummm, I think your desire to serve your country is very honorable. Now that being said, I think being a soldier must be a very tough thing to do in a "warzone" place. You'll may have to take very bold actions including killing someone (that may not end being "a true bad guy" but a collateral damage). If you're not that sure about the motivation than I fear this is going to be a very hard thing to live with. Ask yourself: will you be able to "support" this?

 

[Mouthwash]

In Der Judenstaat Herzl says the Jews introduce antisemitism wherever they go. Things in the US haven't always been perfect, but they have gone fairly well, see three Supreme Court Justices, a number of Senators including both of California's. The US has a third of the World's Jews and theylive in more peace than Israel.

The observation was largely correct up until the mid-twentieth century, so I hardly think he was making some kind of racialist argument.

 

[Kyriakos]

I think you are in no position to be in combat, Mouthwash. I tend to think that if you see actual combat, or even take part in it, you won't really be the same as now. In my opinion there are very few people who can be in a warzone and not collapse even if they survive the actual risks of the place.

One of those would have to be really really of formed views, a humanist, have roots in this life and a serenity in his opinions and thoughts. He would be in the warzone just because he could not help it.
The other kind would be an utterly lost person, who would just self-destruct there.

Currently i am of the view you are neither of the above types. Maybe you should reconsider your decision to become a soldier, moreso in such a location.

 

[Mouthwash]

I think you are in no position to be in combat, Mouthwash. I tend to think that if you see actual combat, or even take part in it, you won't really be the same as now. In my opinion there are very few people who can be in a warzone and not collapse even if they survive the actual risks of the place.

One of those would have to be really really of formed views, a humanist, have roots in this life and a serenity in his opinions and thoughts. He would be in the warzone just because he could not help it.
The other kind would be an utterly lost person, who would just self-destruct there.

Currently i am of the view you are neither of the above types. Maybe you should reconsider your decision to become a soldier, moreso in such a location.

Half of all Israelis go through this. It's not like I'm specifically requesting to go to the West Bank.