Should Intellectual Property exist?

[Tee Kay]

heck, a stone axe is literally capital

 

[Lexicus]

A distinction between private and personal property? Do enlighten me. Private property is, by definition, personal. And using economic terminology, personal property is private property. So please demonstrate the distinction. Maybe we should outlaw property completely. No one owns anything, everything can be used by anyone at any time.

Dude come on this is really easy to google.

In political/economic theory, notably socialist, Marxist, and many anarchist philosophies, the distinction between private and personal property is an important one. In capitalism private and personal property are considered to be of equal importance and significance without the need for making a distinction.

Personal property, or possessions, includes "items intended for personal use" (e.g., one's toothbrush, clothes, and vehicles, and rarely money). It must be gained in a "fair" manner according to socialist doctrine. The owner has a distributive right to exclude others (i.e. the right to command a "fair share" of personal property).
Private property is a social relationship between the owner and persons deprived, i.e. not a relationship between person and thing. Private property may include artifacts, factories, mines, dams, infrastructure, natural vegetation, mountains, deserts and seas—these generate capital for the owner without the owner necessarily having to perform any physical labor. Conversely, those who perform labor using somebody else's private property are considered deprived of the value of their work in Marxist doctrine, and are instead given a salary that is disjointed from the value generated by the worker.
In Marxist theory, private property typically refers to capital or the means of production, while personal property refers to consumer and non-capital goods and services.

 

[Yeekim]

Make no mistake, art will always be made. But in this case, art exists despite capitalism. It exists because it is a human activity to make art. Regardless of the extent it's been cut, measured, weighed, and pounded, it is not IP that has put the glory of humanity before you, but raw human creativity which is just being filtered through a machine for pigs

I really like this quote.

That is indeed a great quote because it also works when "capitalism" is substitited with "communism", "feudalism", or whatever else.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

We also probably can't rely that much on notable specialists to gauge art, because while they are better about it than most, appreciation of arts is very much informed by cultural factors and phenomenons, and what art is perceived to be in a given culture at a given point in time, and tend to tell us as much about the culture of those that produced the art as about the culture of those who are judging the art.

Specialists are better at judging the technical aspects of art. But they're not any better at judging the emotional aspects of it unless the art pertains to some experience the expert had and can relate to that many others can't.

An example would be art about the Holocaust (or any other war-related art). I can react emotionally to it, but someone who actually survived it or had family or friends caught up in it would have a much deeper emotional experience and would be in a better position to judge if it was good or not.

 

[NinjaCow64]

I can accept the argument that per capita production isn't an adequate measure, at which point I'm going to refer to the question above : what would be an adequate one ?

For the exact question you are answering I don’t think there is one/.

 

[Lexicus]

For the exact question you are answering I don’t think there is one/.

Typical capitalist thing, though, missing the point of art by trying to measure it with numbers.

 

[Plains-Cow]

That is indeed a great quote because it also works when "capitalism" is substitited with "communism", "feudalism", or whatever else.

I mean, sure, but it follows better with the "machine for pigs" part. That's the real gem as it describes our current state of IP laws really well imo.

 

[Igaryd]

Generally speaking, this stuff is just propaganda from capitalists who want to keep their workers on a leash. Sharing what we produce is inhuman - but murder and slavery, well that's just human nature! Yeah, that's why we have laws. "Utopia" is not on the table, and most socialists are well aware of that.

Two things:

1. Those states called themselves "socialist" which was in their view completely copasetic with their communist ambitions.

2. As the great Kwame Ture said, "Karl Marx did not invent socialism, socialism is there for all to see." It does not begin and end with what he thought.

Of course socialism is always in a state of flux. When you constantly find your self wrong and you constantly have to find a way to shoe horn your latest disaster in to your cockamamie theory so that disaster isn't the fault of the theory but only that of the person who messed up this time eventually you wind up with a system where people who disagree with you wind up dead in very unpleasant ways.

 

[Plains-Cow]

Specialists are better at judging the technical aspects of art. But they're not any better at judging the emotional aspects of it unless the art pertains to some experience the expert had and can relate to that many others can't.

An example would be art about the Holocaust (or any other war-related art). I can react emotionally to it, but someone who actually survived it or had family or friends caught up in it would have a much deeper emotional experience and would be in a better position to judge if it was good or not.

Are you really nobility? I didn't think Canada still conferred any noble titles. How did that process go, and do you pass it on to your kids? It seems like an anachronism, so it's interesting. Especially when it's from the New World.

 

[Gori the Grey]

You're really pacing yourself, there, Igaryd.

 

[Lexicus]

Of course socialism is always in a state of flux. When you constantly find your self wrong and you constantly have to find a way to shoe horn your latest disaster in to your cockamamie theory so that disaster isn't the fault of the theory but only that of the person who messed up this time eventually you wind up with a system where people who disagree with you wind up dead in very unpleasant ways.

Me about to enjoy my weekend reading this nerd saying socialism doesn't work

(joke is the weekend is socialism)

 

[Plains-Cow]

Of course socialism is always in a state of flux. When you constantly find your self wrong and you constantly have to find a way to shoe horn your latest disaster in to your cockamamie theory so that disaster isn't the fault of the theory but only that of the person who messed up this time eventually you wind up with a system where people who disagree with you wind up dead in very unpleasant ways.

It's awesome that your first post in almost a year is in this thread lol

IP makes for crazy and fun talk.

 

[Igaryd]

Dude come on this is really easy to google.

What you googled doesn't even make sense. What that implies is that nothing that is currently yours need remain yours if some sorry ass bureaucrat some where decides it should be his

And from the perspective of these fine people, can you give us a comparative measure per capita of how many the communist block produced of timeless classics compared to the West ?

Last I checked the only communist movie that was ever shown in Western theaters was the Epic War and Peace the epic novel by Dostoevsky written by Doestoevski while Russia was still ruled by czars was made into a six hour long movie when shown in the US it had two intermissions. A decent enough movies given it's back drop and the fact that it was based on the longest one volume book ever written John Jakes even more massive Shogun was two volumes.

 

[Plains-Cow]

What you googled doesn't even make sense. What that implies is that nothing that is currently yours need remain yours if some sorry ass bureaucrat some where decides it should be his

Last I checked the only communist movie that was ever shown in Western theaters was the Epic War and Peace the epic novel by Dostoevsky written by Doestoevski while Russia was still ruled by czars was made into a six hour long movie when shown in the US it had two intermissions. A decent enough movies given it's back drop and the fact that it was based on the longest one volume book ever written John Jakes even more massive Shogun was two volumes.

Out of curiosity, do you think that lack of Soviet media to watch in theaters was because of a lack of interest in the storytelling or a lack of product because of a refusal/government restrictions to import and screen the Soviet films for Western audiences?

 

[Igaryd]

Me about to enjoy my weekend reading this nerd saying socialism doesn't work

(joke is the weekend is socialism)

Oh you can make socialism work after a fashion but it doesn't work well and cost way too much money and in the end is no better and is often worse in regards to human rights than capitalism. What you can't make work is communism.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I am still waiting to hear what a "further to the left than we have seen" socialistic nation would look like culturally and economically. What aspects of our current capitalism are gone and what have they been replaced with if anything: Banks? Stocks; Corporations? Personal investing? Existing bank accounts and portfolios? Small business ownership? 3 car families? Second homes? Big first homes? Private schools? Inheritance allowed? If some of those are gone, what happens to the money or people involved in operating them? How would the transition work? Would it take 5 years? 20 years? What would happen to all the guns in the US? How would you deal with sovereign Indian tribes?

We've heard all kinds of talk about how great things would be once capitalism is gone, but no one ever describes what this socialist solution would actually look like for everyday activities or how it would achieved. There are lots of unanswered questions.

 

[Lexicus]

Oh you can make socialism work after a fashion but it doesn't work well and cost way too much money and in the end is no better and is often worse in regards to human rights than capitalism. What you can't make work is communism.

You do sound like the kind of person who dislikes the weekend.

 

[Lexicus]

What you googled doesn't even make sense. What that implies is that nothing that is currently yours need remain yours if some sorry ass bureaucrat some where decides it should be his

Bureaucrat taking what's yours:
Drakeno.jpg
Boss taking what's yours:
Drakeyes.jpg

 

[Plains-Cow]

I am still waiting to hear what a "further to the left than we have seen" socialistic nation would look like culturally and economically. What aspects of our current capitalism are gone and what have they been replaced with if anything: Banks? Stocks; Corporations? Personal investing? Existing bank accounts and portfolios? Small business ownership? 3 car families? Second homes? Big first homes? Private schools? Inheritance allowed? If some of those are gone, what happens to the money or people involved in operating them? How would the transition work? Would it take 5 years? 20 years? What would happen to all the guns in the US? How would you deal with sovereign Indian tribes?

We've heard all kinds of talk about how great things would be once capitalism is gone, but no one ever describes what this socialist solution would actually look like for everyday activities or how it would achieved. There are lots of unanswered questions.

Lots of politics are like that. Part of the "fun" of Christmas morning is walking downstairs and looking at the boxes, maybe daring to pick one up for weight or to give it a quick jiggle. You don't want to ruin all of the surprises in store, though!

 

[Igaryd]

Out of curiosity, do you think that lack of Soviet media to watch in theaters was because of a lack of interest in the storytelling or a lack of product because of a refusal/government restrictions to import and screen the Soviet films for Western audiences?

Mostly I think it was simply the fact that the restrictions on what could and could not be produced and the fact that people who guessed wrong about what Stalin and later the politburo wanted tended to have quite short careers in the arts. Add to that the fact that when political reliability trumps actual talent every time and you get stuff that is such laughable boiler plate that the worst dread among those forced to watch the ridiculous claptrap was the fear that you might laugh out loud at an inappropriate moment and be shipped of to the gulags. It should tell you all you need to know about the former Soviet Union that in order to get his masterpiece the Gulag Archipelago publish he first had to smuggle it out of the country.