Should Intellectual Property exist?

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I am sure in pre-revolutionary France there were guys who were saying "Actually Feudalism is the natural state of man, if we don't have a King all of society would crumble".
Fixed the error. Stupid spell check.

In pre-revolutionary America, there were many (and still do) who believed in royal authoritarianism. We called them Torys back then. And look where the 1790 revolution got them -- a dictator and a quarter century of war. But to your point, in the 18th Century, socialism didn't exist. Neither did fascism or communism. The republics of Rome and Greece collapsed 2,000 years ago. Places like Switzerland or a grouping like the Hanseatic League were proto democracies with severely restricted suffrage. In short, kings, emperors and despots were all people knew, especially those who benefited from such a situation.

Communism has never been tested in the real world and it is doubtful it ever will go from theory to practice. It's not just economic, it's cultural, particularly in the area of religion,almost all of which have hierarchical worship structures. And overturning existing societies, regardless of how needed or warranted that overthrow might be, will face a significant amount of resistance.

Capitalism, democracy, and democratic socialism, for all of their shortfalls and failings, at least have systems that allow for change without violence.
 
Humans mostly held things in common for about 200,000 years before agriculture, as far we can tell, the "my stone ax" idiocy that was pulled out of the ass of a different poster notwithstanding. So these arguments about "human nature" are based in, like I said in a previous post on this thread, total ignorance of the subject matter.

In other "total ignorance of the subject matter" news, this distinction between private and personal property was theorized by socialists before Marx, it's hardly exclusive to Marx or Engels. I don't entirely agree with it as good theory myself because I don't think there's a clear line where we can distinguish capital from non-capital, but my rule of thumb for policy is that it's generally bad for someone to own more stuff than they can actually use.
I agree, especially the part about owning more than you can use. It's a (losing) argument with my wife every week or so. There's two of us -- do we really need 31 coffee cups and five different sets of dishes?
 
Cherry picking from a wiki site on Soviet Cinema, this bit was more interesting than the rest.

Trophy films​

As an interesting aside, the reverse also happened - edited and uncredited Soviet films were shown in the US.

I'll copy a Google-translated article from behind a paywall below:
The 18th Haapsalu Horror and Fantasy Film Festival was opened by the 1959 fairytale film "Sampo" starring Eve Kivi. The adventures in this film are as fantastic as its content and birth story.

Sixty-five years ago, Mosfilm's cameras buzzed differently than usual: the upcoming film "Sampo" was, in some ways, something new and revolutionary. For the first time, Soviet cinematographers teamed up with filmmakers from a capitalist country - a Soviet-Finnish collaboration film was born. New technologies were encountered for the first time - the film was ready for widescreen and stereo sound (the latter only for the Finnish cinema market).
All this meant that more time and money was spent than on a typical film project. The shooting took place in Finland, Crimea and Mosfilm studio, and the whole process took two years. The film was to become another triumph for the director Aleksandr Ptuško, whose magical fairy-tale films with abundant special effects brought big box office both in the Soviet Union and in the countries of the Eastern Bloc.
In Finland, the screen adaptation of "Sampo" raised quite a controversy: the national epic had to be treated with great respect, but it turned out to be impossible to fit the entire epic into one film. Therefore, the manuscript focuses only on the I and III Väinämöis cycle. The Soviet film industry was not interested in this authenticity, and the script of the version that reached Soviet cinema was much freer and more commercial./.../

During the Cold War, nothing was sacred in Soviet-US relations. At the end of the 1950s, in the great Sputnik craze, Soviet studios started producing exciting science fiction films, which in terms of their technical level were in every way superior to corresponding Hollywood films. In America, science fiction was just a secondary B-movie, while in the Soviet Union it was propaganda of national importance. The potential of cinema distribution in America was also seen in these films, but their acquisition often went through very shady channels (for example, copies of films shown in East Germany were copied).
Of course, a Russian pirated film could not be allowed in US cinemas, therefore a whole studio was formed whose job it was to remake these films as much as possible, dub them into English and remove everything that hinted at the Russian origin of the films. The future king of indie films, Roger Corman, began to manage this studio , while the later film genius Francis Ford Coppola was responsible for the new editing, among others. Such a fate awaited "Sampo", which began to be called "The day the world froze".
Ptuško's films were also hijacked. 1952's "Sadko" got a new six under Roger Corman - in the version "The Magical Journey of Sinbad" Sadko became Sinbad, Novgorod became Copasand; 1956's "Ilya Muromets", however, was adapted by Corman into the film "The Sword and the Dragon".
What was happening was in blatant contradiction with modern (also at that time) copyright laws, because all creators were hidden. The Soviet names were replaced by fictional, American or Nordic-sounding names: the main actors Eve Kivi and Andris Ošiņš became Nina Anderson and Jon Powers, while the director Ptuško became Gregg Sebelious (apparently someone in the studio had heard of Sibelius)
"Sampo" was shortened quite a bit, but in America no time was wasted on cutting out Eve Kivi (only the ultra-romantic song numbers were removed). Since it was foreseen that the young beauty would become a screen magnet, proper lobbying was done for "Nina Anderson". A booklet of the film and even an interview with Nina herself were published. It turns out that the girl is a beauty queen of Finnish-American origin, who is engaged in figure skating and collects stamps in her spare time!
However, the film's real star moment came in 1993, when it was screened in the popular Comedy Central film series "Mystery Science Theater 3000". This series featured strange old cult movies accompanied by the witty banter of three "aliens" on the screen. The "Sampo" episode was watched by hundreds of thousands of people and its cult status was secured. It was funny that the commentators knew nothing about the Soviet origin of the film; what's more, they always seemed to be of the opinion that the action was taking place in Sweden instead. On the other hand, nobody in the Soviet Union knew anything about the film's American success. When Eve Kivi took part in the TV show "Stars in music", I decided to ask the opposing team a trick question: which Estonian actress is known as Nina Anderson? The opponents didn't know, and when I triumphantly turned to Eve's team - they didn't know either! It turned out that Eve Kivi had never heard that her alter ego has a brilliant career, cult status and fan pages in America!

From: https://ekspress.delfi.ee/artikkel/...janna-ja-eestlaste-teadmata-usas-kultusstaari

See also:
Attached original (Finnish/Soviet) and remade (US) posters.
 

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Cherry picking from a wiki site on Soviet Cinema, this bit was more interesting than the rest.
We’ve gotta exchange notes ;).
Does the puritanical censorship of the Hay’s Code invalidate the films produced by Hollywood during that period?
The Hay’s Code didn't lead to the result of dissenting filmmakers into the gulags and/or being ostracized from society. See my previous post on what happened to Margarita Barskaia and Aleksandr.
>He doesn't realise that his bosses underpaid him for his labour
The man's retired and it's not like @Igaryd worked in retail his entire life. If he were underpaid for his work, he'd apply to another company that offer's better pay and benefits. I know the ridiculous statement of "Muh bosses underpaid me for my labor" would apply to me, and I'd counter with an eyeroll. The supervisors on the factory floor don't go around taking a $20 out of my wallet when I'm observing a CNC machine while it's running nor do the manager of my department goes out of his way to payroll to cut my pay. I feel that the company and my bosses are paying me at a decent level (I'm still a neophyte in my trade and it's expected that I'd be paid less compared to someone who has 20+ years of experience in the trade) with benefits. So no, the bosses don't underpay me for my work and I'm sure Igaryd would feel the same way when he was active in the workforce.
 
You didn't answer my questions and that ^^^ means nothing at all. It is just avoiding the real issues involved in getting from here to where you want to go.

I did provide a partial answer to your questions. You did not quote that part, though, which makes me think being more detailed would be a waste of time.

I am not in favor of violent revolutions through "vanguard parties", is all I'll add now.
 
I agree, especially the part about owning more than you can use. It's a (losing) argument with my wife every week or so. There's two of us -- do we really need 31 coffee cups and five different sets of dishes?

You never know when 29 people might drop by for dinner some night. It's best to be prepared. :scan:
 
The Hay’s Code didn't lead to the result of dissenting filmmakers into the gulags and/or being ostracized from society.
I'll take "red scare" alex for 400
The man's retired and it's not like @Igaryd worked in retail his entire life. If he were underpaid for his work, he'd apply to another company that offer's better pay and benefits. I know the ridiculous statement of "Muh bosses underpaid me for my labor" would apply to me, and I'd counter with an eyeroll. The supervisors on the factory floor don't go around taking a $20 out of my wallet when I'm observing a CNC machine while it's running nor do the manager of my department goes out of his way to payroll to cut my pay. I feel that the company and my bosses are paying me at a decent level (I'm still a neophyte in my trade and it's expected that I'd be paid less compared to someone who has 20+ years of experience in the trade) with benefits. So no, the bosses don't underpay me for my work and I'm sure Igaryd would feel the same way when he was active in the workforce.
Your bosses paid you very very well, I'm sure. And they pat you on the head sometimes too. Listen, what more could you want? That's all there is in this world.
 
Okay, so if there is no measure, how can you say that communist block wasn't artistically bankrupt ?

I...congratulations, you have rendered me speechless. I don't even know where to begin with this.
 
@Akka

Let me painstakingly and clearly articulate my opinion on this:
  1. The question "Which film tradition is superior? The Communist Bloc's or the Wests'?" is a question which does not have an objective answer.
  2. A separate question, which you are conflating, "Did the Soviet Union make a significant contribution to cinema?" is a resounding yes.
  3. A question closely related to the second which you are also conflating with the first, "Was the Soviet Union creatively bankrupt?" is a resounding NO.
The answers of questions two and three are not matters of opinion, they are objective facts! Denying them is denying reality itself. You may as well say that Alan Turing didn't make significant contributions to computer science or that the website we are posting on is called "Bob's Tractor Hobby Home". I do not know how much more clearly to state this.
 
I...congratulations, you have rendered me speechless. I don't even know where to begin with this.
I mean, I'm not playing dumb. I agree that art isn't science and can't be measured through precise metrics and all.
But when you laugh at the very idea that a particular kind of IP management stiffle art, I expect that you can actually back it up according to some select criteria that aren't limited to quoting the same two movies over and over.
 
I mean, I'm not playing dumb. I agree that art isn't science and can't be measured through precise metrics and all.
But when you laugh at the very idea that a particular kind of IP management stiffle art, I expect that you can actually back it up according to some select criteria that aren't limited to quoting the same two movies over and over.
I apologise for getting terse with you.

The problem is here is that we are discussing something different than you think we are. I am not and I have not laughed at the idea that perhaps the Soviet Union's management of film and other arts was sub-optimal. I am not an expert on cinema or the Soviet Union, I cannot say for certain.

What I am objecting to, strongly I might add, is the completely unfounded idea that the Soviet Union is artistically bankrupt. Something that you, and others, keep seeming to think is a reasonable point to discuss rather than a the completely deranged statement it is! There is a gigantic gulf between "This country might not have had the best conditions for creating art" and "This country is artistically bankrupt"! Those are not equivalent! People from an artistically bankrupt country (if there even is such a thing) would not be able to produce films that are as widely celebrated as many of the films that have come out of the country! They would not have even been able to have produced one film of such high quality!
 
I would love to have a discussion about IP rights. I would love not to be discussing this. But I can't let the idea "The Soviet Union was artistically bankrupt" go unchallenged because it is such a blatantly absurd falsehood.
 
The Hay’s Code didn't lead to the result of dissenting filmmakers into the gulags and/or being ostracized from society. See my previous post on what happened to Margarita Barskaia and Aleksandr.
Charlie Chaplain was literally exiled from the United States due to his political beliefs. And he was like a big famous guy, imagine what happened to poor Joe Bloggs who was accused of being a dirty Communist.

The man's retired and it's not like @Igaryd worked in retail his entire life. If he were underpaid for his work, he'd apply to another company that offer's better pay and benefits. I know the ridiculous statement of "Muh bosses underpaid me for my labor" would apply to me, and I'd counter with an eyeroll. The supervisors on the factory floor don't go around taking a $20 out of my wallet when I'm observing a CNC machine while it's running nor do the manager of my department goes out of his way to payroll to cut my pay. I feel that the company and my bosses are paying me at a decent level (I'm still a neophyte in my trade and it's expected that I'd be paid less compared to someone who has 20+ years of experience in the trade) with benefits. So no, the bosses don't underpay me for my work and I'm sure Igaryd would feel the same way when he was active in the workforce.
Do you think that Elon Musk works harder than you?
 
I'll take "red scare" alex for 400
Keep coping and seething over the two Red Scares. :rolleyes:
Your bosses paid you very very well, I'm sure. And they pat you on the head sometimes too. Listen, what more could you want? That's all there is in this world.
You can dispense with the condescending attitude. But I get it, you can't get off your little ideological crusade to usher in authoritarian communism to the world and look down at people who disagree with your ideology. :rolleyes:
 
Capitalism, democracy, and democratic socialism, for all of their shortfalls and failings, at least have systems that allow for change without violence.
Very true, it was awesome when Chile capitalistically and peacefully transitioned from the rule of Allende to the rule of Pinochet with the help of the epic democratic United States! There was no violence there! Much peaceful, very democracy, wow!
 
Keep coping and seething over the two Red Scares. :rolleyes:

I will continue to cope and seethe over an event that disproportionately effected homosexuals like myself, thank you. Good to know that if the government ever wants to bar me from employment because of my sexuality and gender identity that you will be laughing.

But how were you meant to know that I would have been effected by a horrible event that would have caused the ostracisation of thousands from society???
 
Keep coping and seething over the two Red Scares. :rolleyes:
You feel good saluting the flag that put a bullet in MLK Jr., Malcolm X, and Fred Hampton, and locked Huey Newton up forever - all just for exercising their freedom of speech agitating for rights that should have been theirs' to begin with? Think it's a great country do you? Oink, oink.
You can dispense with the condescending attitude. But I get it, you can't get off your little ideological crusade to usher in authoritarian communism to the world and look down at people who disagree with your ideology. :rolleyes:
You're welcome!
 
You can dispense with the condescending attitude.
But why would anyone when you immediately condescend with this?
But I get it, you can't get off your little ideological crusade to usher in authoritarian communism to the world and look down at people who disagree with your ideology. :rolleyes:
I mean, come on lol.

I notice you skipped over Lexi's comment about the blacklists in favour of whatever purpose you believe your condescension was serving. You raised the Hays Code in the first place, right?

Are you aware of the blacklists Lexi is referring to?
 
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