Should Intellectual Property exist?

[Gorbles]

Cool yeah that's the other extreme

Assuming this to be the case, we're back at life experiences not counting when discussing society as a whole. They're anecdotal.

This is agreement, what you're doing here. No?

I don't talk like that.

And? You've mischaracterised a bunch of people's posts.

Was the meaning incorrect? Did you not point at unemployed people not achieving great things as evidence for your "idle hands" bit?

Ok sure, your point?

Unemployed people not making things is not people being allowed to thrive and create what they want because they're still existing under capitalism. It's not the socialist society that other posters are putting forwards. So you can't assume in that society people would act like they do in this one.

I listened and responded.

And a bit of a mixed economy is fine. Lexius used the word communism and I asked him to clarify his ideas.

Isn't that what forums are supposed to be about?

Forums are about a bunch of things.

You're the one who complained that people were just "poking holes in capitalism". That's what you accused folks of, yeah?

Funny how it's fine when directed at socialism, or the posters advocating for it

For something to be workable you have to put in a bit more work than "free bread for everyone"

"I don't talk like that".

Sound familiar? If you want the idea of a forum to work, but you hold the people you're being antagonistic towards to a higher standard than your own posts, then nothing works.

We don't get here in discussions like this by accident. Now in this case people have said a lot more than "free bread for everyone", so unlike where my "checkmate socialism" wasn't your words, it was still your meaning, your quote is neither.

 

[Lexicus]

And a bit of a mixed economy is fine. Lexius used the word communism and I asked him to clarify his ideas.

Sure, the problem with UBI is that it just gets stolen by capitalists raising prices unless the government also implements wide-ranging price controls.

The immediate policy recommendation is an expansion of public funding of the arts, along with raising the minimum wage and various measures to let more workers be covered under collective bargaining agreements. When workers have higher wages and more job security they won't need to spend all their time at work. Public funding of the arts would also allow artistic endeavors that wouldn't be supported by the private market.

 

[Hygro]

My personal experience is that my most creative periods are usually when I do have other imposed activities on my plate *in moderation* and *which I enjoy or am at ease with*.

When I'm having to force myself to focus on uninteresting or boring duties, I don't have the energy left to create. When I have nothing to do, I chronically overestimate how much time there is in the day and constantly meander into everything but creativity by thinking there will be time enough tomorrow or the day after.

In short, I must have enough free time and energy to create, but not so much that I stop valuing time and energy and squander them left and right.

Work is not the only way to get there, and it can definitely go too far, but idleness is definitely no better.

16 hour workweek, 4x4.

 

[Evie]

Yeah. I'd guestimate that the the 12-30 range depending on person is probably best. I tend to view a full 35-40 hours as only marginalkY better than no work at all, and anything above 40, any overtime, as far worse than not working at all.

Capitalism, of course, feels entitled to that last one.

 

[Lexicus]

Capitalism will also just never employ everyone who wants to work, because it wouldn't be profitable to do so (and because the involuntarily unemployed serve as an object lesson for the workers of what happens if they get too uppity).

 

[Narz]

now again the correlation between a lot of free time and lack of productivity only really holds up for people who don't like to make art.

for those who compulsively do it, which is the majority of artistic production, more free time means more art.

Sure I'll buy that but I'm not sure free time necessarily leads to better art.

When you're free from the shackles of having to participate in the economy you lose a bit of understanding of humanity.

 

[Narz]

Assuming this to be the case, we're back at life experiences not counting when discussing society as a whole. They're anecdotal.

This is agreement, what you're doing here. No

Bro it's a conversation. Not everything is about quoting meta-studies

Was the meaning incorrect?

Yes

It's not the socialist society that other posters are putting forwards. So you can't assume in that society people would act like they do in this one.

You can ask some of the older eastern European posters what it was like to be in or underemployed under communism.

Idleness and lack of purpose is an issue philosophers have been discussing pre-capitalism, it's a human issue

You're the one who complained that people were just "poking holes in capitalism".

I think you're mistaking me w someone else. Can you point to where I said that?

but you hold the people you're being antagonistic towards to a higher standard than your own posts

I asked a question to someone else and you jumped on w the antagonism.

The immediate policy recommendation is an expansion of public funding of the arts

That's cool, I agree, tho I'd prioritize medicine, technology, ecology and science in general all above that.

You're not gonna reverse climate change w a cool new song (altho music for kids is known to be good for the brain)

 

[Lexicus]

That's cool, I agree, tho I'd prioritize medicine, technology, ecology and science in general all above that.

We were talking about the arts though, not these other things. If you want to start a thread about policies Lexicus thinks are a good idea I'd love to talk more there.

 

[Lexicus]

Idleness and lack of purpose is an issue philosophers have been discussing pre-capitalism, it's a human issue

Those same philosophers who were able to be idle because slaves were doing all their work, right?

 

[Igaryd]

My life experience teaches me that people do not thrive being forced to work 50+ hour weeks just to scrape by.

You're the one saying silly things like "unemployed people aren't making great things, checkmate socialism". Unemployment as we see and experience it is still under capitalism. It doesn't magically stop being capitalism.

Exactly what I said two or three posts ago.

You asked for "workable socialism" and yet instead of listening to people explaining aspects of it, you continually pick holes instead.


Wow, such a supporter of personal freedoms.

Personal freedom doesn't mean other people have to carry your tired ass.

 

[Igaryd]

Lol, lmao

Conflate freedom and slavery? Out of curiosity, what do you think of the Confederate States of America?

Oh and another question, do you think trans people should be free to use their preferred bathroom or should the government make that illegal?

The confederate states were a statist entity hell bent on having the government Retrieve their slave for Not notably different from socialists save perhaps for being a bit more honest about their perfidy;

I don't think your mental illness entitles you to enforce your neuroses upon others at their expense.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Way too many breakthrough cases.

Please don't be like the UCP-worshiping jerks I encounter daily on my premier's FB page. Even before FB banned news links for Canadians, they were allergic to posting links from legitimate news sources to support their propaganda. Now that some people figured out a workaround, they'd still rather parrot the party line.

Since we are not now on FB and Canadians are allowed to view and follow news links here, I'm asking you to provide them to support your position.

i'm very used to (particularly middle class) people kind of musing about the idea of writing books or painting and whatever but when they finally get free time they kind of fail because they actually don't enjoy the work.

The whole "I'd love to write a book but I don't have time" thing is why, over 20 years ago, Chris Baty came up with NaNoWriMo. People shudder when I tell them that every November I sign myself up to write 50,000 words in 30 days. Even breaking it down to 1667 words/day sounds daunting (and it is, if writer's block is happening, which is why NaNo participants should always have a backup project, or even two, to switch over to if the first one is putting them in the mental fog of not having any idea what is supposed to happen next).

There are various ways of getting through this. Some people do their 9-5 weekday work and write when they get home. Some others do it on the weekend, or at least they say they'll do it on the weekend. Those tend to be the people who either drop out or, if they keep on, they don't make it to 50k words. 'Cause weekends are always distracting, the thought creeps in that "a couple of hours to go shopping or see a movie won't matter; I can still do this on Sunday" and then they're faced with a mountain of several thousand words to do in one day and have a reaction.

Been there, done that, never want to experience it again. I do my writing every single day, even in the 9 months of the year when the NaNo competitions aren't running. That way, all I need to do in April, July, and November is make a plan for how much farther to go every day and where in the story I want to be when it's over (the rules finally changed to allow ongoing works, rather than starting with a fresh one every time).

Sometimes I make it to the story point, sometimes not. I once wrote 15,000 words of some guy wandering around a marketplace, conducting various transactions both mundane and special (he needed a special chest in which to transport a dragon's egg so it would arrive safely and unhatched; that required custom work). I didn't intend all this to take that many words, but oh well, he did visit a friend first, before being handed this "to do" list... and he didn't get around to running the last couple of errands on the list before the end of Day 30. Unless I return to that story some day, that cheese wheel will never get picked up, and the seller and purchaser will forever remain peeved about it (that errand was supposed to be done about 6 years ago).

Yesterday I was browsing the NaNo forums and there was someone in the situation of wants to write a story, has trouble sticking to a single plot, ends up with lots of variations, doesn't know which one is the "real" story, and this has been going on for years.

That's the situation I'm in. Nice to know I'm not the only one with this problem of seeing so many different ways it could go. I wish that other person best of luck in figuring out a solution, and am thankful for the good advice a couple of other people wrote in reply.

This is true of many other artistic things, btw. Some get stalled on a painting because they're not sure if the original idea is what they want to go with, or a needlework or sewing project goes unfinished. I've easily got a dozen NaNoWriMo attempts that I gave up on either because I had no idea what to do with them, and/or what I did do with them turned out to be crap. I love reading Star Trek novels and some other people's ST fanfic. I can't seem to write any of my own unless it's a parody/satire or filksong.

One thing that aspiring writers need to understand is that they won't get better at writing unless they put in the effort to write. It's like athletes need to train, actors need to rehearse, musicians need to learn the basics and do their daily practicing, textile designers need to study and learn the techniques of what medium they're working in. No artist can be an instant success, even those who do turn out to be good at a very young age (don't tell me about Mozart; he was amazing, but even he didn't turn out his most famous compositions when he was 4).

not sure how we got there from IP though. care to enlighten me?

Conversation drift. It happens.

 

[Lexicus]

The confederate states were a statist entity hell bent on having the government Retrieve their slave for Not notably different from socialists save perhaps for being a bit more honest about their perfidy;

So in your view it is "statist" for the state to take action to protect private property rights? Are you an anarchist then?

I don't think your mental illness entitles you to enforce your neuroses upon others at their expense.

Personal freedom my ass.

 

[Igaryd]

Suffice it to say that the federal government of the united states of America had spent the last fifty years engaged in an experiment in which the nuclear family was replace with a government check. It has not produced bumper crop of new art in fact what it has produced in the main is bumper crop of drug addiction, rape, murder and robbery.

 

[Igaryd]

So in your view it is "statist" for the state to take action to protect private property rights? Are you an anarchist then?



Personal freedom my ass.

Wrong human beings cannot and should not be property. Not surprising that Marxists don't get that.

So women should not be free from weirdos lurking in their bathrooms?

 

[Broken_Erika]

Suffice it to say that the federal government of the united states of America had spent the last fifty years engaged in an experiment in which the nuclear family was replace with a government check. It has not produced bumper crop of new art in fact what it has produced in the main is bumper crop of drug addiction, rape, murder and robbery.

 

[sophie]

I don't think your mental illness entitles you to enforce your neuroses upon others at their expense.

What is being enforced here?

 

[Crezth]

Suffice it to say that the federal government of the united states of America had spent the last fifty years engaged in an experiment in which the nuclear family was replace with a government check. It has not produced bumper crop of new art in fact what it has produced in the main is bumper crop of drug addiction, rape, murder and robbery.

Oh man, wait 'till you hear where the "nuclear family" came from.

 

[Lexicus]

Suffice it to say that the federal government of the united states of America had spent the last fifty years engaged in an experiment in which the nuclear family was replace with a government check. It has not produced bumper crop of new art in fact what it has produced in the main is bumper crop of drug addiction, rape, murder and robbery.

Ah, a nice helping of racism to go with the transphobia you served up previously. Bone app the teeth

Wrong human beings cannot and should not be property. Not surprising that Marxists don't get that.

Sir:

We congratulate the American people upon your re-election by a large majority. If resistance to the Slave Power was the reserved watchword of your first election, the triumphant war cry of your re-election is Death to Slavery.

Karl Marx, letter to Abraham Lincoln of November 1864

You can claim that human beings cannot be property but they were property in the United States before the 13th amendment was adopted. Saying "humans can't be property" doesn't change that and abolitionists saying that did not change it at the time.
Now, we could say that they are an illegitimate form of property, or more specifically that the ownership of such property can only originate in theft. This is simply the Marxist position with respect to forms of property such as factories and real estate. So congratulations! You have more in common with Marx than you thought.

 

[Gorbles]

Bro it's a conversation. Not everything is about quoting meta-studies

Nothing to do with a "meta-study", whatever you mean by that.

You said "idle hands make for the devil's work" or however that old Christian nonsense goes. I said "feels like vibes". About as far from a study as you can get

Yes

How?

You can ask some of the older eastern European posters what it was like to be in or underemployed under communism.

Again, you're not discussing socialism here.

Idleness and lack of purpose is an issue philosophers have been discussing pre-capitalism, it's a human issue

And? It still doesn't make you right.

I think you're mistaking me w someone else. Can you point to where I said that?

I'm glad you asked! Let me bold the relevant part:

Seems forum communists spend 99.99% of their time poking holes in capitalism & almost no time fleshing out how "Global CommunismⓇ" would work IRL.

Personal freedom doesn't mean other people have to carry your tired ass.

You'll find some folks think the same of right-wing conservatives. But then you accused others of hating personal freedom.

So who knows which it is, eh?