Slaves, Hostages and Prisoners of War

[Nimek]

You really can't give them negative health after the upgrade and why would you want to?

Because it makes war even easier than it was.

Before upgradable hostages was implemented when I was going to war I always took defensive units also to protect fresh captured city. Now i dont have too. I upgrade captured capitives.

Another aspect:

Current logic is something like that. I take my army of 20 units and captured a city ex Paris. During conquer Paris I captured two capitives units (borned in Paris). I gaved them bows and moved my entire army (20 units) away from Paris. What two borned in Paris capitives equiped with bows should do? now they are obey and act like they love me from centuries. They should kill my governor and redeclare independenca as soon as my big army left the city. This is realism. Nobody is that stupid to give just captured prisoners weapon because everyone know what they would do with it.

 

[Thunderbrd]

He's requiring that the captives be returned to your cities (that have the appropriate buildings for what you want them to become) to be turned into units and taking away the ability to do it in the field.

Even then though... you would leave your newly captured cities in the hands of unpromoted units? Gutsy. Unpromoted units are basically half strength units as they are and certainly cannot hold their own in any fights. So they just end up as a token defense but if tested? They wouldn't hold their ground too well unless you're seriously out-teching your opponent.

Besides, how much are you losing in production in your capital or wherever you build your good units by upgrading them rather than slaving them in your city in the first place? I treasure captives like pure gold for that purpose and will pay enormous military upkeep costs just to get those guys home for the added production. +100 of them after Medieval modifiers is like... +300 production!!! That's far more than the tiles around the city alone can produce.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I can give it a shot as well... If you haven't come up with one yet, I've got some other graphics tasks this weekend coming up so I could give it a go to see if I can generate one.

Be my guest. I have tried several buttons but nothing seems right.

Besides, how much are you losing in production in your capital or wherever you build your good units by upgrading them rather than slaving them in your city in the first place? I treasure captives like pure gold for that purpose and will pay enormous military upkeep costs just to get those guys home for the added production. +100 of them after Medieval modifiers is like... +300 production!!! That's far more than the tiles around the city alone can produce.

In one of my games I wiped out an entire empire and did not want to take the cities since maintenance would have been much too high for me to support. So I had a HUGE stack of captives coming back to my empire. I dropped some off in one city and then was going to make my way around my cities to spread the wealth. However I was extremely dumb and did not escort them when they were in my territory and a rogue came in a captured them ALL! So an empire worth of captives all lost!

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

It is enought but please give them only random 10-30% health instead of full like now. They loose battle so they should be exhausted and some of them was killed

On the Military and Neanderthal captives at the time of capture - sounds like a good idea. Not so much on the citizens as they are just a rounded up group of people.

Also they shouldnt be upgradable to settlers - it can be simply exploited by human

One person says that this is under powered another says it is OP - that means it is about right.

I can give it a shot as well... If you haven't come up with one yet, I've got some other graphics tasks this weekend coming up so I could give it a go to see if I can generate one.

Don't worry about it. Thinking on it I am going to have one mission for each unit upgraded to anyway. I do need to figure out how to say "no anarchy in the city" as a requirement on the upgrade outcome. That way you will only be able to do upgrades in cities which have the correct buildings are are not recently conquered unless they have been pacified with entertainer units.

@DH: When will we be ready to use the Capture Modifier and Resist Capture tags? I ran across a unit during the Throwing review that was primarily used, historically, to capture people for the sacrifice and figured it was a great candidate for a healthy capture modifier but those aren't plugged into the formula on your end yet are they?

I have not done any Python for captives in a while. I remembered this last night but have not kept a record of where the descriptions were so I could implement them. I would need to move some values into civics and such also.

In one of my games I wiped out an entire empire and did not want to take the cities since maintenance would have been much too high for me to support. So I had a HUGE stack of captives coming back to my empire. I dropped some off in one city and then was going to make my way around my cities to spread the wealth. However I was extremely dumb and did not escort them when they were in my territory and a rogue came in a captured them ALL! So an empire worth of captives all lost!

But then I did something similar.

 

[AIAndy]

Don't worry about it. Thinking on it I am going to have one mission for each unit upgraded to anyway. I do need to figure out how to say "no anarchy in the city" as a requirement on the upgrade outcome. That way you will only be able to do upgrades in cities which have the correct buildings are are not recently conquered unless they have been pacified with entertainer units.

I have exposed that now as TAG_ANARCHY to boolean expressions (for Is) so you can use it in a plot condition on the outcome:

<PlotCondition>
  <Not>
    <Is>TAG_ANARCHY</Is>
  </Not>
</PlotCondition>

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I have exposed that now as TAG_ANARCHY to boolean expressions (for Is) so you can use it in a plot condition on the outcome:

<PlotCondition>
  <Not>
    <Is>TAG_ANARCHY</Is>
  </Not>
</PlotCondition>

I put that on the OutcomeInfos and get an XML error saying PlotCondition is not defined. I'll make sure I am using the latest schema and comment further.

I also tried to have the cost of the outcome on the unit file adapt to game settings but it did not like it either

	<iCost>
			<Adapt>
				<ID>ADAPT_DEFAULT</ID>
				<Constant>5</Constant>
			</Adapt>
	</iCost>

Saying Adapt is not valid in iCost.

Edit I am still getting these errors with the latest schema, so I am either doing these wrong or they are not fully supported yet.

 

[JosEPh_II]

When capturing Bandit footpads why do they turn into the AI that sent them own worker? Why aren't they a Military captive? So the worker just goes back to it's territory. Only way to Capture it is by having an Ambusher, Rogue or Assassin handy. Doesn't seem right. I'm spending 2 - 3 mounted units to take out these heavily and overpromoted Str 6 units. Only to get no captive at all.

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

When capturing Bandit footpads why do they turn into the AI that sent them own worker? Why aren't they a Military captive? So the worker just goes back to it's territory. Only way to Capture it is by having an Ambusher, Rogue or Assassin handy. Doesn't seem right. I'm spending 2 - 3 mounted units to take out these heavily and overpromoted Str 6 units. Only to get no captive at all.

JosEPh

There is noting special about Bandit Footpads they should be treated the same as any other military unit. Only animal (ie isAnimal() or UNITCOMBAT_ANIMAL) and canine (UNITCOMBAT_CANINE) units are ignored by the Capture Slaves python. Need to add feline units to that list.

 

[Thunderbrd]

In one of my games I wiped out an entire empire and did not want to take the cities since maintenance would have been much too high for me to support. So I had a HUGE stack of captives coming back to my empire. I dropped some off in one city and then was going to make my way around my cities to spread the wealth. However I was extremely dumb and did not escort them when they were in my territory and a rogue came in a captured them ALL! So an empire worth of captives all lost!

Oh, ouch... I should watch out for that too when I drop them off... where were your dogs? Lazy hounds...

Don't worry about it. Thinking on it I am going to have one mission for each unit upgraded to anyway. I do need to figure out how to say "no anarchy in the city" as a requirement on the upgrade outcome. That way you will only be able to do upgrades in cities which have the correct buildings are are not recently conquered unless they have been pacified with entertainer units.

Good idea. Much easier all 'round.

I have not done any Python for captives in a while. I remembered this last night but have not kept a record of where the descriptions were so I could implement them. I would need to move some values into civics and such also.

It's in the team projects committed thread as a reminder.

When capturing Bandit footpads why do they turn into the AI that sent them own worker? Why aren't they a Military captive? So the worker just goes back to it's territory. Only way to Capture it is by having an Ambusher, Rogue or Assassin handy. Doesn't seem right. I'm spending 2 - 3 mounted units to take out these heavily and overpromoted Str 6 units. Only to get no captive at all.

Is it possible that they have the Capture tag on the unit definition defined as a worker?

There is noting special about Bandit Footpads they should be treated the same as any other military unit. Only animal (ie isAnimal() or UNITCOMBAT_ANIMAL) and canine (UNITCOMBAT_CANINE) units are ignored by the Capture Slaves python. Need to add feline units to that list.

It could be interacting with another capture structure. Also... you shouldn't have to update to Canine and Feline CCs since all such units should ALSO be considered UNITCOMBAT_ANIMAL. This was something I recently updated on those units. If we see one that isn't it should be updated to be.

 

[AIAndy]

I put that on the OutcomeInfos and get an XML error saying PlotCondition is not defined. I'll make sure I am using the latest schema and comment further.

PlotCondition (and UnitCondition) is on the outcome, not the outcome info (for some reason I don't remember).

I also tried to have the cost of the outcome on the unit file adapt to game settings but it did not like it either

	<iCost>
			<Adapt>
				<ID>ADAPT_DEFAULT</ID>
				<Constant>5</Constant>
			</Adapt>
	</iCost>

Saying Adapt is not valid in iCost.

Edit I am still getting these errors with the latest schema, so I am either doing these wrong or they are not fully supported yet.

iCost is not an integer expression tag (it is a normal int). Not very hard to turn it into one though.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

PlotCondition (and UnitCondition) is on the outcome, not the outcome info (for some reason I don't remember).

To make my life difficult I expect.

iCost is not an integer expression tag (it is a normal int). Not very hard to turn it into one though.

It would be useful that way.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

What I really like to see is changing the Nagualism Pyramide Wonders a bit so they benefit sacrifices.

I have been thinking on this so it is not forgotten. It is just tedious to make additive outcomes.

Another religion that could benefit is Druidism. It is way under powered when compared to Shamanism. Perhaps a "Druid Cult of the Headhunter" or something like it to represent the Celtic tradition. Also some sacrificial benefit for the two cathedral level buildings when Druidism is the State Religion.

On cannibalism I still need to make the disease and some python to implement it. I am thinking that cannibalism should go obsolete at some stage, probably Medicine, as well as being turned off. It may be better for the AI that way.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@DH

I have been thinking of adding a Soylent Green Factory in the trans-human era which would require the Cannibalism Worldview. You have any brainstorming ideas for it?

 

[KMRblue1027]

I'm not entirely sure on my hypothesis but I think the captive system starts exposing holes in the balance of the game with the AI on higher difficulties. Once you get to Sed Life, it seems the AI spams cities like no tomorrow, my biggest rival went from 4 to 12 in 120 turns on Eons. I believe the cause is the free settlers you get from sacking barb cities if you have the cash (AIs seem to have like 25000 gold by Sed Life on immortal). I've had three different games basically become unwinnable without WB since this was added.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

@DH

I have been thinking of adding a Soylent Green Factory in the trans-human era which would require the Cannibalism Worldview. You have any brainstorming ideas for it?

The whole point was that people did not know that it was made from people.

 

[DRJ]

If you look at the chasms of humanity, one could very well think that a regime or political atmosphere in times of need would propagate such a "solution" openly and in this case the "worldview cannibalism" would be adequate to allow their construction, I think.

An exception to "openly" adapt this worldview and still to be able to build the soylent green factory would be the civic "mindcontrol".

So once you switched out of "mindcontrol", your soylent green factories would stop to work - until you openly declare "worldview cannibalism" or have "mindcontrol" active again.

One has to see that in later times the from "worldview cannibalism" would most certainly be significant compared to the amount of the soylent green factories provide.

But if you had a lot of free in the cities it might pay off, to build them anyway.

However, having both mindcontrol and worldview cannibalism enabling their construction would provide a broader aproach to the subject matter.

If you had worldview cannibalism active but not mindcontrol, I could imagine that events like "people in opposition to the common worldview cannibalism tend to leave city XY since the construction of a soylent green factory there has shown them the practical impact to everyday life".

This event would be equivalent to the earlier "people leave the city because of bad living conditions".
In effect, if you have worldview cannibalism active but not mindcontrol,
building soylent green factories in cities with a lot of surplus would grant a rise of population but with drawbacks now and then.
You might not want to build them anywhere as the event could also trigger a higher rev status (from green "safe" to yellow "warning" or from "warning" to red "danger").

 

[strategyonly]

The whole point was that people did not know that it was made from people.

That was a weird movie But it did make "some" sense, i guess?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I'm not entirely sure on my hypothesis but I think the captive system starts exposing holes in the balance of the game with the AI on higher difficulties. Once you get to Sed Life, it seems the AI spams cities like no tomorrow, my biggest rival went from 4 to 12 in 120 turns on Eons. I believe the cause is the free settlers you get from sacking barb cities if you have the cash (AIs seem to have like 25000 gold by Sed Life on immortal). I've had three different games basically become unwinnable without WB since this was added.

This would mean that they are being used in the least best way. It cost much more to upgrade to a settler than it does to build a settler. I do have a possible solution but need to test it out. It is also possible that the recent fix for the problem of the AI not building any cities may be the cause of what you are seeing.

 

[Hydromancerx]

The whole point was that people did not know that it was made from people.

So it should be independent of the World view? Or possibly get extra happy from the world view?

If you look at the chasms of humanity, one could very well think that a regime or political atmosphere in times of need would propagate such a "solution" openly and in this case the "worldview cannibalism" would be adequate to allow their construction, I think.

An exception to "openly" adapt this worldview and still to be able to build the soylent green factory would be the civic "mindcontrol".

So once you switched out of "mindcontrol", your soylent green factories would stop to work - until you openly declare "worldview cannibalism" or have "mindcontrol" active again.

One has to see that in later times the from "worldview cannibalism" would most certainly be significant compared to the amount of the soylent green factories provide.

But if you had a lot of free in the cities it might pay off, to build them anyway.

However, having both mindcontrol and worldview cannibalism enabling their construction would provide a broader aproach to the subject matter.

If you had worldview cannibalism active but not mindcontrol, I could imagine that events like "people in opposition to the common worldview cannibalism tend to leave city XY since the construction of a soylent green factory there has shown them the practical impact to everyday life".

This event would be equivalent to the earlier "people leave the city because of bad living conditions".
In effect, if you have worldview cannibalism active but not mindcontrol,
building soylent green factories in cities with a lot of surplus would grant a rise of population but with drawbacks now and then.
You might not want to build them anywhere as the event could also trigger a higher rev status (from green "safe" to yellow "warning" or from "warning" to red "danger").

I am liking your brainstorming.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I have added in new buildings and specialists for slavery. They can't be used yet as I need to link them to the captive units. The buildings have two purposes

1) to spread out the number of pop you can have as slaves

2) to allow the settling as the new slave specialists

I still need to set up the missions to allow you to settle as the new slave types - done on the unit infos file and I need to change the python so that when you leave Slavery the settled slaves are converted as the doco says.

I am planing on not letting Captives - Civilian upgrade to Settlers except in your capital but to Immigrants instead. This fits better as they should join one of your cities not create a new one unless your leader has had a chance to talk to them first.

Captive - Military will require the correct infrastructure and a city not in anarchy to upgrade to any units.

The only military unit Captive - Neanderthal will be able to upgrade to will be Neanderthal Warrior. Note you wont need the wonder for this.