So What Happened British Empire?

[Bast]

It's not appropriate because Vicky and Winnie weren't leaders of the English.

Yes, they were. England was and is part of Britain.

 

[Bast]

If Elizabeth is such a big deal, then get rid of her and give the empire it's proper name.

You lost all credibility right there. Elizabeth has been part of the game from Civ I. This will never happen.

 

[Spearthrower]

Ye GADS!!

Saying to Bast that Elizabeth or Victoria should be removed from the game is tantamount to heresy!!

Just kidding... in case we've all got too serious to spot a joke!

 

[Paul Saunders]

Russia was the dominant country in the Soviet Union, right? England is the dominant country in the United Kingdom.

No it's not! There is no such country as England! There was once, but not any more. Now it's just a part of the UK. I know that the English, Scots and Welsh like to think of themselves as being separate countries, because of their different cultural identities, but technically they're not.

We can still think of ourselves as being different "nations" (for example the 6 Nations Cup) but we haven't been different "countries" for a long, long time.
http://www.six-nations-rugby.co.uk/six-nations-cup/

That's why I don't think its a big deal that the English Empire includes Britain and the Russian Empire includes Soviet Union things.

1. There is no such thing as the English Empire.
2. The British Empire includes England, not the other way around.

 

[Paul Saunders]

Perhaps I could have explained it better or differently, but there's no reason to repeatedly attack me.

Oh I don't know, your defences are looking pretty weak now!

Hey Spearthrower, fancy an alliance against Cornhog? Got any horses to trade me? I've got a few techs you might find useful. If we attack now we can finish him off quickly, then share his cities between us. What say you?

 

[Spearthrower]

I didnt attack him before.... but well.... a military pact does sound interesting. I've not got any horses though.... I've got a cat, but only one source.... and she's sleeping on my keyboard... hmmm.... let's try appeasement for now.....

*waves olive branch"

Yes... England is Britain and the Scots like to drink an afternoon tea with triangular cucumber sandwiches, while the Welsh stroll down t' road in their bowler hats walking their Yorkshire Terriers..... and every day is cricket on the village green, a bright red bus into town and a jolly jape with ones mates cheering England on t.v.!

Shhhh he's asleep again, dreaming of fairytales!

 

[Troymk1]

I think for a proper appreciation of all that is Britain one should be forced to read the Flashman novels by George McDonald Frazer..


And laugh ye shall !!


Oh and a PS (I'm getting good at those)

Spear, yes it is Rhyming slang. Old school Okkers stole it from Cockneys at some stage I daresay.



And to put this historical debate into some sort of perspective. Sid based the original Civ on his common knowledge of History. Didn't research much except to get the odd name right.

It seems to me this approach has been whole heartedly embraced by subsequent iterations of the design. The fundamental misunderstanding of the relationship of troop types is an example of this. (I wrote a thread about that recently)

So should one be offended? No not really. The designers (in the main) are young-ish Americans and just don't have the background in history to take a deeper approach to the subject. A sweeping statement sure, but I live here so I think I can!

 

[Spearthrower]

I've never seen that, looks like a "romp"!

 

[Winston Hughes]

But most British people do give a damn about it.

Do they? How do you know that? I haven't seen any surveys.

It's not uncommon for different versions of a game to be produced for different countries, so why not create a British version of Civ with the British in it?

I'd guess that more Brits would rather play as England, Wales or Scotland than as Great Britain or the UK, and that the absence of the Welsh and Scottish civs is more likely to bother people than the absence of a British one.

But, as I said, personally I really don't mind either way. I'm no more likely to play as the English/British than I am as the French, the Chinese or the Native Americans. The only reason I care about having real-world civs in the game at all is that made up ones would be less entertaining to play against.

It's not appropriate because Vicky and Winnie weren't leaders of the English.

But of course they were! That they also led the Welsh, Scots, etc. doesn't change the fact that they were (essentially) English leaders whose power was, for the most part, based in and derived from England.

Despite the considerable influence and contribution of other parts of the UK, the locus of British power has always rested in England, and the concerns of the English people have generally taken a higher priority in the affairs of state than those of other parts.

Some people go as far as to say that the British empire was really the English empire, which included Scotland and Wales as (effectively) privileged vassals. I don't entirely agree with that position, but there is a grain of truth in it.

 

[Spearthrower]

Well, to be fair, for the most part Wales was totally subsumed by England... it was an outright conquest with them even having English laws (which by definition means that this does not equate to an English Empire)...... Scotland was and is different, and while no one is denying the centuries of aggression and vile atrocities levied against each other (worse by the English)... they still joined willingly into a union that was far far more equal than a vassal - I've already linked to information showing exactly what that entailed.

In real terms, from my experience no Scot or Welshman would want to be represented by the term "England", but most of them are happy to be described as British... although again, most (including the English) would prefer their local national adjective over that. Actually, it is the non-white populace of Britain that are the most likely to describe themselves as "British" but the least likely to use a local national adjective.

 

[aronnax]

England or Britian, that is the questions

Argument 1 : I want the English Empire, not Britian

Well I have to say Lizzie was the Queen Of England, Victoria is the Queen of Great Britian and Winston is the Prime Minister of Great Britian

Therefore Victoria and Winston are not English Leaders, but British Leaders. Someone will argue with me that both of them did control the non-existent country of England and therefore are English leaders in right. However Victoria was also the Empress Of India. Using the same logic, we can have Victoria as an Indian Leaderhead. No body wants that right? Also there is no such thing as a British Civilization.

Okay I want to get into a qoute war, someone challenge my points!

 

[Spearthrower]

Okay I want to get into a qoute war, someone challenge my points!

Well, I agree with everything else you said, or at least accept your opinion but.... if you insist....

Also there is no such thing as a British Civilization.

Why do you say that? Of course there is a British Civilisation - it exists today. Are you going to tell me that my family, friends and countrymen don't exist?

If so, can I stop paying taxes to my non-existant country?

 

[Bast]

Ye GADS!!

Saying to Bast that Elizabeth or Victoria should be removed from the game is tantamount to heresy!!

Just kidding... in case we've all got too serious to spot a joke!

Well Victoria only joined the game in Civ IV, rather unfairly overlooked in the previous games. Of course, this might've had to do with the fact that multiple leaders only became available in Civ IV.

I do remember the days of Civ II where Henry VIII was the alternate male leader. I don't know about that. That's really a can of worms there.

But Elizabeth is not just English royalty. She's CIVILIZATION royalty. Her absence would set off riots in the community. At least, I shall hope so.

In a game where female leaders are already far too underrepresented, taking away two of the most capable and exemplary leaders will just about drive me over the edge.

 

[GeneralMatt]

No I wouldn't. I simply call her "the queen". So does everyone else in the UK, as far as I know. Everyone knows that "the queen's" head is on stamps and coins, at Christmas we get "The Queen's Speech". People go to Buckingham Palace to see "the queen". Nobody puts "of England" on the end. We all know who we're talking about.

Just to add my view as a Canadian. I used to call her the Queen of England, when I was little, but I have been reading a lot since then, and I am getting used to referring to her as "The Queen" I mean, she is ours to, why disown her?
And I think that is why certain other countries do not call her just "The Queen", because they need to specify which one. But since she is ours, when we hear that phrase we think of her.

I'm not sure why it's common practice to use the term Americans to mean people from the US, because it's just as applicable to Canadians, Mexicans, Brazilians and so on. Why don't you have a specific name?

Manifest Destiny I think is part of it. They were called Americans from the colonial days when they were the only British americans, and they just took it.

Plus they used to think (And I daresay they still do) that they were meant to have the whole continent.. so why not call yourselves by it?

It's not uncommon for different versions of a game to be produced for different countries, so why not create a British version of Civ with the British in it? If the idea of including the British is too repellent for the American market...

Hahaha, now their is an idea! I hope we get shipped yours, though I doubt it. That is what we get for living so close to the US..

 

[aronnax]

Well, I agree with everything else you said, or at least accept your opinion but.... if you insist....



Why do you say that? Of course there is a British Civilisation - it exists today. Are you going to tell me that my family, friends and countrymen don't exist?

If so, can I stop paying taxes to my non-existant country?

There is no British Civilization, but there is a British Country, British Citizens, British Fish and Chips and a British annoying but well-like and love Royal Family. There is no such thing as England anymore, it disappeared when Great Britian was formed. However English People, culture and food still live on

Also you dont pay taxes to England you pay taxes to United Kingdom.

 

[Spearthrower]

There is no British Civilization, but there is a British Country, British Citizens, British Fish and Chips and a British annoying but well-like and love Royal Family. There is no such thing as England anymore, it disappeared when Great Britian was formed. However English People, culture and food still live on

Also you dont pay taxes to England you pay taxes to United Kingdom.

You said that there's "no such thing as Britain" and then changed half way through to "There's no such thing as England".

Want to try again?


And anyway - while I don't pay tax to any of them as I live in Bangkok... people most assuredly DO pay taxes to England / Scotland / Wales - go check out Council Tax if you don't believe me.

Of course England still exists, there's not even a shred of truth to your statement. The United Kingdom is comprised of 4 countries: N Ireland, England, Scotland and Wales. Go read up aronnax!

 

[aronnax]

You said that there's "no such thing as Britain" and then changed half way through to "There's no such thing as England".

Want to try again?


And anyway - while I don't pay tax to any of them as I live in Bangkok... people most assuredly DO pay taxes to England / Scotland / Wales - go check out Council Tax if you don't believe me.

Of course England still exists, there's not even a shred of truth to your statement. The United Kingdom is comprised of 4 countries: N Ireland, England, Scotland and Wales. Go read up aronnax!

Alright alright, let me redo this all again,

Oh, Britian exist! Its the country off the coast of France. I am saying there is no British Civilization like there is no such thing as a American Civilization. And there is no England as in "England does not have a seat in the EU/UN like Great Britian" way. But England does exist in the way you state it.

 

[Spearthrower]

Well, I at least partially agree then. England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are one single state that has a representative in the EU. Although Scotland does pursue some representation too for Scottish affairs.

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/nmCentre/news/news-comm-02/ceu02-009-call.htm

There is of course a British Civilisation dating back to at least Ancient Greek times - no it is not 1 single entity but as Great Britain is a geographical term, all the peoples of it constitute a British Civilisation.

Great Britain was formed around 9000 years ago at the end of the Pleistocene ice age when sea levels rose due to isostatic depression of the crust and the melting of glaciers.Great Britan was first called Lesser Britan then it was called Brittany now it is called Great Britan.

Great Britain was first inhabited by people who crossed over the land bridge from the European mainland. Its Iron Age inhabitants are known as the Brythons, a group speaking a Celtic language, and most of it (not the northernmost part) was conquered to become the Ancient Roman province of Britannia.

Scotland, England, Wales, Northern Ireland do exist separately for local councils....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_Tax
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/6705179.stm
http://www.communities.gov.uk/localgovernment/localgovernmentfinance/counciltaxes/

 

[Paul Saunders]

The fundamental misunderstanding of the relationship of troop types is an example of this. (I wrote a thread about that recently)

Oh, don't get me started on the combat system... As an experienced wargamer the unrealisms involved drive me nuts. Perhaps that's why I try to be a peaceful civ builder when I play? If I want warfare I prefer to play a proper wargame instead.

But then again, it's all abstract anyway, so I play within the spirit of the game. I do think the latest combat system is much better than all the previous ones.

Anyway, where was this thread you wrote? I'd like to read it.

 

[Paul Saunders]

Originally Posted by Paul Saunders
But most British people do give a damn about it.

Do they? How do you know that? I haven't seen any surveys.

Just going by personal experience. Many people I've met seem to have quite a strong sense of national identity. Of course I do live in Wales, and I've travelled extensively around it. In some parts, particularly the north, a lot of people still have very strong anti-English feelings (mainly because of incomers inflating house prices). Some seem to resent anyone who simply speaks English, even if they're Welsh! I've actually been told by one person that I'm not really Welsh because I come from the south!

Of course, these are extremes, but even non-nationlists are proud of their Welsh identity, particularly when playing England at rugby!

I'd guess that more Brits would rather play as England, Wales or Scotland than as Great Britain or the UK, and that the absence of the Welsh and Scottish civs is more likely to bother people than the absence of a British one.

Probably. That was one good thing about Call to Power, it included the Welsh, Scottish and Canadians for that matter.

In spite of no longer existing as truly separate countries, they still exist as subdivisions of the UK, and that national spirit is still kept alive in sports such as rugby and football (soccer). Have you noticed that in the World Cup (soccer) there's no UK football team?

But, as I said, personally I really don't mind either way. I'm no more likely to play as the English/British than I am as the French, the Chinese or the Native Americans. The only reason I care about having real-world civs in the game at all is that made up ones would be less entertaining to play against.

I'm most likely to play whichever Civ has the traits that I like the most, or which suit the strategy that I want to play. I used to play the Egyptians a lot in Civ 3, currently I'm enamoured with the Dutch.

If playing a world map and wanting to start in the UK, then I'm most likely to choose the Celts, even though I'm not very fond of their traits. I'm actually less likely to choose the English, mainly because the choice of name annoys me so much (although I could edit that of course.)

But of course they were! That they also led the Welsh, Scots, etc. doesn't change the fact that they were (essentially) English leaders whose power was, for the most part, based in and derived from England.

True, but Vic and Winne were leaders of Britain, not specifically of the English.

Despite the considerable influence and contribution of other parts of the UK, the locus of British power has always rested in England, and the concerns of the English people have generally taken a higher priority in the affairs of state than those of other parts.

True.

Some people go as far as to say that the British empire was really the English empire, which included Scotland and Wales as (effectively) privileged vassals. I don't entirely agree with that position, but there is a grain of truth in it.

Perhaps, but as the Zulu comments noted, there's a tendency for the English, Scots, Welsh and Irish to be mixed together in their military units, making them truly British units, rather than keeping the nationalities separate, even if the units take their names from where they are based in the UK.