# So you call me a 'fanboi'

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Dale, Dec 27, 2010.

1. ### Red WegenerChieftain

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There should be a forum rule that you are not allowed to post until you know who Dale is...

This is how bad Civ 5 is: reading all of the posts here filled with deluded self-importance is more fun. Now that's bad

Dale, that was not a jab at you. I have read many of your posts over the years and always thought you were a valuable forum contributor.

2. ### DaleDeity

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The actual purpose of this thread was that some people had incorrectly labeled me a fanboi due to being a beta-tester of Civ 5. I had also discussed some of the more negative points raised by people against Civ 5 saying that the game is not THAT bad. This led people to assume I was a fanboi, which I am definitely not.

Regardless of whether it's egotistical or narcissistic, it is the opinion of a long-time player of Civ games and just as valid as your opinion.

3. ### JLoZeppeliPrince

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I think it's more true telling that you are involved in the development of the game and your pride as a tester is at stake after the release. So your defence, by my point of view, is in some ways between a player and a developer, and i actually cant' take your statements about how good is the game as really critic or fair to some extend, but it's true that calling you a fanboy is quite stupid. As i stated, the frankie goes to hollywood group is in the middle, and i can understand their faith, or indulgence, about Civ V.

Said that, i can't take seriously their defensive manners, they are responsable of the delivering of the game in the actual form as well as the developers. It is not important if they were tied by NDA, or their voice was unheard by devs, their were part of the project until the end, if they had some complains, they could drop everytime their role as tester (and respecting the NDA also, but it could be an advice if a tester drop out by his own at least), they didn't...

4. ### The_JSay No 2 Net ValidationsRetired ModeratorSupporter

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Moderator Action:
a) Please get civil again. If you don't give anything on another persons opinion, then ignore it.
b) No accusations against any CFC users (includes the involved groups). Discuss the topic, not the people

5. ### DaleDeity

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I think you would be VERY surprised just how many Frankenstein testers either:
a) dropped out
b) don't play (given up)
c) hate on Civ 5
d) play, but highly frustrated

Being a tester, does not automatically mean you like the game. Case in point, how many Elemental "testers" hated the crap out of the game on release? Most.

6. ### jpinardMartian

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Dale nice write-up. It's too bad you couldn't be this forthright from the beginning as it made people confused at how someone who has such a brilliant mind for Civ was defending stuff we all obviously hate and what sometimes felt like total ignorance on the part of the Firaxis staff to wards critical design elements. There is nothing I'd love more than to see a total post-mortem - start to finish of the CiV V development process.

edit... was way too tired when I posted the rest of my reponse and it was quite unfair.

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8. ### VeshtaWarlord

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Excellent analysis, spot on with immersion and core math being the root of a majority of the problems with C5.
Clearly a fanboi, but a rational, well-reasoned bordering on being objective .. not too shabby in the grand scheme of things

9. ### DaleDeity

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Please understand that it's difficult for me to respond to your post, due to conflict with NDA (discussion of during development processes and discussions), and also I respect the other Franky folks that I will not be discussing their actions (some Franky people have shown they want to remain anonymous, so respect for their position I must follow).

But answers B-C-D does not mean they don't add to development. Yes, B strictly did (as they dropped out), but C and D there was still discussion participation. And one thing you need to remember is that discussion on a fan forum and having 2K Greg saying, "we pass on information to the devs" is one thing. You have to first pass the approval of Censorship Greg. But for the Franky people we were discussing thing directly with the actual people making the game, whether it was Jon, Dennis, Brian, Shaun, etc etc. Even though I fit into D in my list, I still participate in discussions on the Franky forum.

First and for-most you need to remember that the Franky beta testers are just like you, in the same boat and all. We are fans of this great game series called "Civilization", and Civ 5 just doesn't cut it (for differing personal reasons). The only difference between us and you, is we do not need to pass the 2K censor, and there are certain things we're unable to discuss. This limitation of what we can discuss is why most of the Franky participants don't discuss topics like this on fan forums. The cross-over into NDA material is difficult to judge (if history is to go by), and hopefully I won't get a slap some things I've said in this thread. So the reluctance to talk may make us appear as accepting of how Civ 5 was released. And this is what I felt here at CFC, that because my name is in the credits I must automatically love the game and defend it since the problem discussions relate to things covered in Franky forum, and thus subject to NDA and we can't talk about them. My point in this thread is don't for one second assume I'm a fanboi because of that, because I most definitely am not.

10. ### DaleDeity

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Just want to say that the people on the floor in Firaxis, who do the actual grunt work and follow orders, are great people, hard working and very intelligent. Working with them for the last two years has been an honor.

11. ### JLoZeppeliPrince

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I understand that anyone has his own reason and your are totally respected by me, even if i do not agree to all (but it's obvious). In past i partecipate in alpha\beta testing like Warhammer Online and was utterly disappointed by the choices of the devs, even if i addressed all the problems the game incurred after release. To be fair, at some point i dropped out and only said to my friend and some others that the game development was not for my taste (a simple and honest way to not going against NDA and at the same time giving a little advice to people). Someone told me that i had to endure, but i know very well the difference between a SH that have strong leadership and idesa (even if wrog ones) and the voice of the publisher, that is entitled to lead a direction if it thinks that is better for mass marketing the game...

Out of that i like a lot more when SH are more indipendent or have the lead designer mostly opened to suggestion by the audience of fans.... But it's very difficult to find the two at the same time....

12. ### m4gill4King

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You can see problems with the game but you like it anyway and choose to advocate that belief. That's ok with me. There are others who have the same problems (and a few more that didn't make your list) who are as a result unsatisfied with the game. Both positions are quite reasonable, really. What isn't reasonable is trying to "win" the argument over this disagreement because it is clear that each of our opinions on this matter will be decided for ourselves during play, not by strangers arguing in a forum.

I see nothing wrong with people voicing their complaints here. And the converse is quite obvious: there is clearly nothing wrong with noting what you like about the game. The only unreasonable thing about any of this are the zealots from both sides who think they are going to win converts by shouting and arguing and proving that perfect point when in this case the conversation and argument could not possibly have any less effect on anyone's actual enjoyment of the game, which is again, decided wholly independently from any forum conversation.

So the people who go into positive threads and derail it with gripes are pretty much equivalent in my mind to the people who go into the gripe threads and defend the game with everything they've got.

13. ### HorizonsNeeding fed again!

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The only thing worse than being a playtester for Civ5 is not getting paid for it ... don't tell us that you did such invaluable work putting out such a well-polished game for free Dale! :O

14. ### Sonereal♫We got the guillotine♫Supporter

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Do you know a fanboy is?

Because you posted an oxymoron there.

15. ### TheMeInTeamTop Logic

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Dale, I can't believe I read what I read in the OP from you.

You BRUSHED OVER the GUI. YOU did that .

What do you think allowed for the control of the stacks in civ IV? What kept SoD from being an unplayable mess? What do ALL games need to be even remotely good? Solid controls. FWIW, Civ IV's were pretty bad. You could make it "think" you're pressing alt when not, it was a nightmare trying to control-select stacks when different unit classes were on the same tile (like sea + ground), but at the end of the day the UI was still vastly superior to the garbage we have in civ V.

Let's look at a straight "how many key presses/clicks does this take" for civ IV and V:

1. Queue up 5 units in a city (Civ V can't loop units at all trollololol)

- Civ IV: Click on the city, hold down shift, click on unit 5 times. Press escape and/or click off city.
- Civ V: Click on city. Click on city again so that you are inside the city screen and not just on a 1-queue selection. Press escape because initial drop box blocks your view still. Click show queue. Click add to queue. Click on the unit 5 times. Press escape to get out of "add to queue" menu. Press escape again to get out of the city.

Civ IV: 8 actions
Civ V: 12 actions

2. Queue a building in multiple cities at the same time to be the next thing built:

Civ IV: Click on city, hold shift, click on building, press escape or click off city. Add 1 action (shift and click on another city) per city. So for a 6 city empire, 9 actions.
Civ V: Click on city, click on it again, escape, show queue, add to queue, escape. Add every action again for each city you do this, so for a 6 city empire, 36 actions (!).

The joke part here is that if you contol-click cities in IV, you can select all 6 cities at once potentially giving you a 4 action setup vs a 36 action setup.

3. Make a game-long resource trade:

Civ IV: You make the trade and it stays until something forcibly expires it.
Civ V: You have to renew the trade every 30 turns. In a 300 turn game where you're trading for at least 200+, add a factor of 7 actions for each resource trade. If you want to be a bit less biased toward civ IV, you can of course realize that many deals in IV aren't permanent.

However, even if you HALVE the factor of 7 in civ V, you're still talking about dozens fewer actions in IV than V.

4. Moving 15 units:

Civ IV: 2 actions: alt-click and right click.
Civ V: 30 actions, one to select and move each unit. More if the game lags your commands and you have to repeat them.

Granted, this isn't fair to V, because of the 1upt rule. However, given that this is a KNOWN and SIGNIFICANT slow-down factor in the game, WHY the @#%$@#%@#%$@#%\$ did firaxis think it is A GOOD EXCELLENT UBERSMART IDEA to leave us with city build instructions that take somewhere between 50% to 400%+ the inputs? Just saying.

This kind of crap goes on and on and on. Across a game lasting 100's of turns, we are talking about THOUSANDS of unnecessary inputs compared to a well-designed UI in EACH GAME.

So, then do the commands at least do as instructed?

NO, THE COMMANDS DO NOT DO AS INSTRUCTED

I have video evidence of a trebuchet showing "ranged attack" while set up with a valid, visible target instead move. If I give orders quickly, the game will move a unit different from the one that is selected. Many hotkeys that would expedite the game simply DONT EXIST.

Do I want this game to be more like civ IV specifically? No. Do I and any other person in the world with a minutiae of sense want the game's CONTROLS to function reasonably well and be well designed? Yes. I want this game to resemble a GOOD game. And no, Dale, you can NEVER, EVER make this into a good game unless and only unless the game stops requiring people to make 1000's of extra inputs whether or not they realize it. That someone of your caliper brushed over the GUI is shameful. That Firaxis ignored it before release and continues to ignore it is a disgrace.

This issue screams of everything that is wrong in game design with the entire series. The game's units don't even control properly, and you're worried about "maths"?! Do you seriously believe that 1000-2000 or more unnecessary actions per game don't cut into "immersion"? For someone like me, who can do actions in a half second in many cases, that's up to/over 16 minutes. For someone who takes, say, 2 seconds to complete an action on average, they're doing the functional equivalent of staring at a wall, or pounding their knuckles into their desk instead of playing for over an hour in EVERY SINGLE GAME. Think about that. An hour of staring at nothing. You want to kill immersion? Penalize every single casual player who wants to play the game by an HOUR OR MORE every single time they sit down to play civ V. Then let them pick between civ V and a game that doesn't require that many unnecessary actions. HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM, I wonder which game will seem more immersive?!

And you know what the sad, REALLY sad part of this is? I haven't discussed all of the requirements of unnecessary actions in a civ V game. That estimation of 1000-2000 unnecessary actions/game is likely a GROSS underestimation of what the game would require if players had streamlined controls, hotkey options, etc. Nevermind that the game could patch the discipline bonus but somehow not catch that the SP tree still reflects the old value, or that units don't even move properly given a shown command 100% of the time.

I'm not saying civ IV was a GREAT game about this either, although it is beyond argument that when it comes to "unnecessary actions" being forced on a player, it IS superior. No, I am merely saying that the controls are a step BACK from a game that wasn't exactly the best to begin with in that regard. You want math screwups in civ IV? Try the apostolic palace or vassal mechanics on for size. You want to kill immersion? Have the game lie to you about the actual net diplo with an AI with no indication that it's not really the value being displayed other than sheer experience.

But nothing, NOTHING right now comes even CLOSE to hurting civ V as a game experience more than the speed at which it runs and its UI. If you want immersion, try allowing someone to get to the next important decision or big game event 500+ clicks sooner. Try that, I bet you'll find some immersion when players aren't being forced to fight the UI rather than the AI or other players.

In conclusion: I know as well as anyone your real stance and that you're no "fanboi", but for the love of civ and all that is unholy, please please PLEASE don't brush over the #1 greatest (and long-running) flaw in the entire civilization franchise. Controls are gameplay 101. Not a single PC main-series civ release has EVER gotten them right...but civ V is indisputably and by far the worst excuse for a UI I've ever seen in the series. I will NOT stop harping on this until someone with some power grows some sense on this matter. There is NOTHING the game has as a higher priority.

Not nerfing exploits.
Not messing with diplo
Okay, addressing game crashes is a bit higher although they're pretty rare now.

I hate calling you out Dale, but realize I'm not calling you out alone. I'm calling out every single person who has over the years accepted paint-dry watching instead of playing civ as "standard", regardless of whether they're simply a player, beta tester, or actual employee.

The extra clicks are subtle. They sneak up on you. People playing slowly probably don't realize just how often (IE every turn after the opening turns) they're being hammered by the UI, not the AI. But they're there. They waste somewhere from 8 minutes to hours per game. They CANT be that hard to fix compared to AI programming, anti-crash, or any # of things already done.

But firaxis won't touch them. Not with known issues since vanilla civ IV, not now so far. Beta tester or not, the long-standing GUI disgrace that is part of every civ game is very frustrating. I can't let anyone, not even a celebrated and GREAT modder who has done so much for the community, get away with doing that so easily w/o a counter-argument .

16. ### tom2050Deity

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It seems you do care a whole lot, otherwise you wouldn't have left a massive lengthy post called 'so you call me a fanboi'.

It sounds like it's really been bothering you for some time, and you had to post this to get it off your chest, and to clear your mind. Hopefully you have found what you were looking for. The majority of peoples care about Civ 5 being a good game, and are not worried about what you think they think of you.

Gee what? Dale brought up the whole frank group and then went into some detail about specifics... so of course the question will come up. Anyways, perhaps a poll should be added to see what percentage think Dale is fanboi or not. It would make the thread quite interesting.

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@TMIT RE: casual players and immersion-

You contend that requiring loads and loads of extra inputs kills immersion for the casual player, and that obviously makes sense. But what I think you're missing here is the accessibility of various game options for those casual players. Take the queue example. In Civ4, queuing required a keyboard shortcut. I have absolutely no idea what that shortcut was, so never used a queue. I was a casual player, and had no interest in spending the time to investigate what the shortcut was. I don't recall it being easily displayed. Compare this to Civ5, where queuing is clearly labelled and easily done. This may take more clicks of the mouse than the Civ4 shortcut, but at least it is accessible to the casual player (kinda ironic given the information that the player isn't given in 5). Of course, it's a hugely YMMV issue, but I don't think the average casual player is going to learn all the shortcuts required to expedite all game process. Making the features more accessible to the player (I have visual aides for the making of a production queue!), where they don't need anything more than a mouse, would seem to allow for greater immersion in the game's features.

Note that this isn't an argument to say that shortcuts should not be available, and that required inputs should not be streamlined; they both most certainly should. It's an argument that accessibility to a feature is more important than keyboard shortcuts for casual player immersion.

18. ### DaleDeity

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There's a big difference. Fix the GUI and it's still a sh1t game. Fix the maths and immersion and it's a good game with a crap GUI.

19. ### ValkrionnThe Hamster King

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I agree with you about the clicks. I've also tried to address the issue; I've reverted the buildqueue to civ4 methods in my mod, for example. Sadly, only so much to be done on our end for now.

Please, go back and make a thread on Franky describing the issue again. I think you're the best suited to do it, or I would myself.

20. ### moscaverdePrince

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Interesting post TMIT, but I disagree about the absense of shortcuts killing immersion, at least for casual players. Shortcuts are for hardcore players. In all these years of Civ 4, I never learned most of the shortcuts, rather play with the mouse.
The big amounts of clicks and the waitings arguments I totally agree, though. Nothing in a game annoys more than waiting, and overall slowness.