Solve the Problem of Evil

[Gary Childress]

You can have it both ways! Simply abandon the logical things that conflict with faith, and keep logic for the things that don't conflict with faith! The faithful do that all the time!

Or perhaps we could keep logic and abandon faith altogether. Perhaps it's a statement of the mindset of the religious that they will abandon logic and common sense in order to preserve faith in things which cannot be proven.

God allows evil, so indirectly He created it. The reason He allows it is not because He is incapable of stopping it but because He is incapable of giving us the benefits of free will without the drawbacks - including our ability to directly create evil.

So God created evil then.

Let say the God of Bible made two Universe. Universe A is our present reality, humans has free-will. Universe B is made up of humans that are mindless robots. Thinks and acts the same way. Universe B has a planetary society with no conflicts. Humans in Universe B are automatically programmed to love God. Theoretically, there is no concept of good and evil in Universe B.

So God created this universe with people who have freewill. Then he must have created evil in order to give us this freewill according to the apparent link between freewill and evil. So God creates evil which means he is not benevolent.

 

[El_Machinae]

Let's not fall for the assumption that you need to have evil in order to have free will.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I am not sure how an alternative is possible, but at any rate I "believe" that free will leads to evil, at least in this universe.

 

[JustinianVII]

Good and evil are a matter of perspective.

 

[Gary Childress]

So far only 3 out of 20 some people who have voted in the poll apparently believe God creates evil. It seems to be the lowest choice in the rankings yet it seems to be the most debated in the thread. What about the other statments which are being chosen false?

Did God not create everything which exists? Is the Bible therefore wrong?

Does evil not exist in the world? Is Charles Manson not evil? Is Adolf Hitler not evil? Joseph Stalin?



EDIT:

Good and evil are a matter of perspective.

So are you saying that there is no such thing as evil?

 

[Jazzmail]

Well there's stealing-candy-bad and there's pure evil.

I don't believe in a personal god, but if I did, God would get the full blame for allowing the real monsters to exist.
Nothing would be lost and much would be gained, without the many Marc Dutroux of this world tainting it.

Free will for the sane would be no relevant excuse for allowing the evil caused by the psychotic to exist. Small feat for an uber god to build in an extra genetic fail-safe.

Then there's horrors like the holocaust that are too severe to simply brush away.

 

[LucyDuke]

So you think that allowing us free will and the ability to CHOOSE him is not an act of benevolence? Without evil, would there really be a choice?

Sure. I have the ability (I don't think any god gave me this ability, I think I just lucked out on some chemical quirks) to choose your God or to reject Him. I'm going with reject. The consequence this has on my morality? I could just do whatever with no regard for anything. That would lead to evil. But I don't. I think about what I do, and if something causes harm to other people or things in some determinable way, I won't do it. I don't need a book to tell me what I ought to do. Where is the evil?

I suppose you could say that my rejection of the Jesus stuff is inherently evil, and that it's going to send me to hell or somesuch, but to be perfectly frank, a god that cares more about obedience than works is a pretty crappy one.

And you are who to make that determination?

A person. We've got some pretty amazing minds! If I created a creature with such intellect, I'd be insulted if it didn't use it.

 

[Fayadi]

So God created this universe with people who have freewill. Then he must have created evil in order to give us this freewill according to the apparent link between freewill and evil. So God creates evil which means he is not benevolent.

Free-will is a tool.
Evil is a result.

Just like money is a tool
I think logically this is very simple. If A wins a lottery and A used that prize money to build a terrorist organization that later became deadly. Are you going to blame the lottery company for terrorism too
As A obtains the "tool" (money) from the lottery company too.


I don't know about other God-believers but speaking for myself. Is not that I try to avoid logic. Any logic created by you or me is "just" a human logic. Not a "Universe in scope" logic. Human are not in that level yet to use logic to explain Universe and God. Just the same way a monkey or an elephant is not in that level yet to understand human economics or engineering. It is beyond our scientific and mental capability. Having said that, maybe it is no harm trying to explain God with logic. But I think a better time would be when Earthlings has built mighty spaceships that has traveled across galaxies.

 

[JustinianVII]

So are you saying that there is no such thing as evil?

Evil exists, but it exists somewhat differently for people, as everyone sees things somewhat differently than another. Cannibalism, slavery, and human sacrifice are thought of as evil by most people today, but societies in the past did not see one or more of the above as such. Most people see murder and genocide as evil, but chances are there's some twisted person out there who sees it as righteous, or justifiable, or a means to an end. Some might see homosexuality as an evil, blasphemous thing, while others find no evil in two people wishing to express their love how they will.

 

[Bill3000]

This thread makes my head hurt, and not because it's a complex issue

 

[Jazzmail]

Most people see murder and genocide as evil, but chances are there's some twisted person out there who sees it as righteous, or justifiable, or a means to an end.

A benevolent, all powerful and omniscient god, would at the very least create a seperate world for such twisted persons to mess up, away from the world of the normal.

 

[Gary Childress]

Free-will is a tool.
Evil is a result.

Just like money is a tool
I think logically this is very simple. If A wins a lottery and A used that prize money to build a terrorist organization that later became deadly. Are you going to blame the lottery company for terrorism too
As A obtains the "tool" (money) from the lottery company too.


I don't know about other God-believers but speaking for myself. Is not that I try to avoid logic. Any logic created by you or me is "just" a human logic. Not a "Universe in scope" logic. Human are not in that level yet to use logic to explain Universe and God. Just the same way a monkey or an elephant is not in that level yet to understand human economics or engineering. It is beyond our scientific and mental capability. Having said that, maybe it is no harm trying to explain God with logic. But I think a better time would be when Earthlings has built mighty spaceships that has traveled across galaxies.

OK. So God does not create evil? Therefore God did not create everything which exists? The Bible must be wrong?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

What if the Bible is wrong, partially? That wouldn't actually invalidate the existence of God.

 

[Fayadi]

So are you saying that there is no such thing as evil?

Of course there is. A universal(mankind) consensus of what is considered evil is a necessity for the continued safety and progress of human civilization.
Evils such as rape, murder, stealing, etc should always be condemned upon and the strong arm of the law must be used to prevent them and punish people that does it.

But then again as I stated earlier in my previous posts, a Universe B with humans as mindless robots that are programmed to love God. Programmed to all think and behave the same way. Programmed to always be peaceful and harmony with each other. There will be no concept of good and evil.

A benevolent, all powerful and omniscient god, would at the very least create a seperate world for such twisted persons to mess up, away from the world of the normal.

There is such world already. It is hell.

 

[GoodGame]

This thread shows why syllogisms are not trusted as the only means of generating truth, else syllogists would put scientists out of business.

There is an unstated assumption in the syllogism, which is "That which God creates can not deviate from behavior instilled in it at creation". The related myth creation stories often have a revolt in heaven whereby one of the creations with enough power to create evil, revolts against the creator. E.g. Frankenstein, Lucifer.


EDIT: But for the sake of arguement, it'd be pure speculation to determine which of the three stated assumptions was false. About the only assumption I'd go with as factual is "Evil Exists". The others would be unprovenable in my opinion. But purely more opinion polls.

 

[LucyDuke]

Any logic created by you or me is "just" a human logic. Not a "Universe in scope" logic. Human are not in that level yet to use logic to explain Universe and God. Just the same way a monkey or an elephant is not in that level yet to understand human economics or engineering. It is beyond our scientific and mental capability. Having said that, maybe it is no harm trying to explain God with logic. But I think a better time would be when Earthlings has built mighty spaceships that has traveled across galaxies.

See, I don't understand this self-deprecation. When my sensibilities tell me something doesn't make sense, I don't write off my sensibilities.

 

[Gary Childress]

What if the Bible is wrong, partially? That wouldn't actually invalidate the existence of God.

You mean insofar as God did not create everything and therefore did not create evil? I guess I can buy that. Who wrote the Bible anyway? Was it not mere mortals? They probably got a lot of things mixed up or just plain wrong when they wrote it.

Evil exists, but it exists somewhat differently for people, as everyone sees things somewhat differently than another. Cannibalism, slavery, and human sacrifice are thought of as evil by most people today, but societies in the past did not see one or more of the above as such. Most people see murder and genocide as evil, but chances are there's some twisted person out there who sees it as righteous, or justifiable, or a means to an end. Some might see homosexuality as an evil, blasphemous thing, while others find no evil in two people wishing to express their love how they will.

So Hitler, Stalin and the rest are only evil in a human sense but not in God's? Therefore they are not "really" evil, therefore evil does not "really" exist? So Hitler and Stalin are not "really" evil.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

You mean insofar as God did not create everything and therefore did not create evil? I guess I can buy that.

That's one possibility, certainly. There are other areas in which the Bible may not be completely correct, and yet God may exist.

Who wrote the Bible anyway? Was it not mere mortals? They probably got a lot of things mixed up or just plain wrong when they wrote it.

Believing the Bible isn't really an "either-or" preposition. There is a wide range of possible views on the degree to which the Bible (which is not one book but 66, after all) was inspired by God, and even among those who don't believe in God, there are plenty of possible views on how it came to be and how accurate it is.

 

[MobBoss]

OK. So God does not create evil? Therefore God did not create everything which exists? The Bible must be wrong?

At this point your arguement merely becomes circular.

The real crux of the question is this:

If God indirectly allows for evil to occur is he actually creating it?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

The same argument can be applied to anything, leaving aside the whole concept of God - if you indirectly allow something, are you creating it?

(Don't ask me, darned if I know.)