Solve the Problem of Evil

Which of the following statements is **FALSE**

  • God created everything which exists.

    Votes: 43 60.6%
  • God does not create evil.

    Votes: 39 54.9%
  • Evil exists.

    Votes: 31 43.7%

  • Total voters
    71
If God creates evil then he isn't a benevolent God.
You're making a big boo boo here. I can see a debatable case that God isn't omnibenevolent. But benevolence here is a lower standard. I can say that a person who creates some evil is still a benevolent person! I don't see how that can't be the case with God.

Maybe "natural evil" isn't as bad as we think it is - bad enough to be sure, but in the long run just adding to the variety of ways in which we die.
I view this stance as a successful defeat of the problem of evil. It could be that the "evil" that we now perceive is in the long run actually good for all of us.
 
Explain to me like I'm a 6-year-old: how does that help?

We agree that certain things are good and others are evil, and we have a pretty good idea of the concept of "evil". For the sake of going forward, we'll assume that evil exists.

This doesn't mean that evil is a thing to be created, but rather a concept; we judge things to be good or evil, and God judges things to be good or evil.

I don't see why God must have created the concept of "evil," and I don't see how this conflicts with God creating all things. The serpent in the Garden told Eve that

Genesis 3:5 said:
God knows well that the moment you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like gods who know what is good and what is bad.

(New American Bible)

From this, I get the impression that good and evil are concepts that God judges or that gods judge. He has to operate within them just as we do, and a good god would only do things which are good. Apparent indifference to evil might be because the Lord knows the effects of actions better than we do. That's a call I'm not going to make.

Well according to Ammar the Bible says God created evil. See post #9.

I'm not super well-versed; I tried to look up the verse, but I'm not sure where to look.

:blush:
 
If the assumed deity is not omnipotent then we fall into the mire of there being other gods/laws of the universe holding the deity in question in check. Therefore, I will assume that the deity in question is omnipotent, and then proceed to conclude that this deity created evil, and may not be particularly partial to good for that matter.
 
You are making assumptions about the nature of God and declaring them fact. You're imposing our limited human morality on him when we are unaware of the wholeness of his majesty and being. That's not cool.

Hey, wait a second.. Doesn't everyone who says something about God make assumptions?
 
I'm not super well-versed; I tried to look up the verse, but I'm not sure where to look.

:blush:

lurker's comment:

Isaiah 45:7

Full text of Isaiah 45 in the spoiler.

Spoiler :
1 "This is what the LORD says to his anointed,
to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of
to subdue nations before him
and to strip kings of their armor,
to open doors before him
so that gates will not be shut:

2 I will go before you
and will level the mountains [a] ;
I will break down gates of bronze
and cut through bars of iron.

3 I will give you the treasures of darkness,
riches stored in secret places,
so that you may know that I am the LORD,
the God of Israel, who summons you by name.

4 For the sake of Jacob my servant,
of Israel my chosen,
I summon you by name
and bestow on you a title of honor,
though you do not acknowledge me.

5 I am the LORD, and there is no other;
apart from me there is no God.
I will strengthen you,
though you have not acknowledged me,

6 so that from the rising of the sun
to the place of its setting
men may know there is none besides me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other.

7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things.

8 "You heavens above, rain down righteousness;
let the clouds shower it down.
Let the earth open wide,
let salvation spring up,
let righteousness grow with it;
I, the LORD, have created it.

9 "Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker,
to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the ground.
Does the clay say to the potter,
'What are you making?'
Does your work say,
'He has no hands'?

10 Woe to him who says to his father,
'What have you begotten?'
or to his mother,
'What have you brought to birth?'

11 "This is what the LORD says—
the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker:
Concerning things to come,
do you question me about my children,
or give me orders about the work of my hands?

12 It is I who made the earth
and created mankind upon it.
My own hands stretched out the heavens;
I marshaled their starry hosts.

13 I will raise up Cyrus in my righteousness:
I will make all his ways straight.
He will rebuild my city
and set my exiles free,
but not for a price or reward,
says the LORD Almighty."

14 This is what the LORD says:
"The products of Egypt and the merchandise of Cush, [c]
and those tall Sabeans—
they will come over to you
and will be yours;
they will trudge behind you,
coming over to you in chains.
They will bow down before you
and plead with you, saying,
'Surely God is with you, and there is no other;
there is no other god.' "

15 Truly you are a God who hides himself,
O God and Savior of Israel.

16 All the makers of idols will be put to shame and disgraced;
they will go off into disgrace together.

17 But Israel will be saved by the LORD
with an everlasting salvation;
you will never be put to shame or disgraced,
to ages everlasting.

18 For this is what the LORD says—
he who created the heavens,
he is God;
he who fashioned and made the earth,
he founded it;
he did not create it to be empty,
but formed it to be inhabited—
he says:
"I am the LORD,
and there is no other.

19 I have not spoken in secret,
from somewhere in a land of darkness;
I have not said to Jacob's descendants,
'Seek me in vain.'
I, the LORD, speak the truth;
I declare what is right.

20 "Gather together and come;
assemble, you fugitives from the nations.
Ignorant are those who carry about idols of wood,
who pray to gods that cannot save.

21 Declare what is to be, present it—
let them take counsel together.
Who foretold this long ago,
who declared it from the distant past?
Was it not I, the LORD ?
And there is no God apart from me,
a righteous God and a Savior;
there is none but me.

22 "Turn to me and be saved,
all you ends of the earth;
for I am God, and there is no other.

23 By myself I have sworn,
my mouth has uttered in all integrity
a word that will not be revoked:
Before me every knee will bow;
by me every tongue will swear.

24 They will say of me, 'In the LORD alone
are righteousness and strength.' "
All who have raged against him
will come to him and be put to shame.

25 But in the LORD all the descendants of Israel
will be found righteous and will exult.



[relurk]
 
You're making a big boo boo here. I can see a debatable case that God isn't omnibenevolent. But benevolence here is a lower standard. I can say that a person who creates some evil is still a benevolent person! I don't see how that can't be the case with God.

My apologies, I've personally never heard the term omnibenevolent used in a philosophical argument. Most of the instances I have seen have used the word benevolent.

The term is patterned on, and often accompanied by, the terms "omniscience" and "omnipotence", typically to refer to conceptions of an "all-good, all-knowing, all-powerful" deity. Philosophers and theologians more commonly use phrases like "perfectly good",[4] or simply the term "benevolence".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnibenevolence

Take an online dictionary of philosophy for instance:

Since an omniscient god must be aware of evil, an omnipotent god could prevent evil, and a benevolent god would not tolerate evil, it should follow that there is no evil.

http://www.philosophypages.com/dy/e9.htm#evil

Bevenolence: desire to do good to others; goodwill; charitableness:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/benevolence

If God is "simply" benevolent then would he also want to harm others? How does doing some harm to others reconcile with being "benevolent" if benevolence is the "desire to do good to others?"
 
Integral-

Thanks.

My translation has "create woe" for that line. "Woe" and "disaster" aren't quite the same as "evil," I don't think; they are things which we would judge to be not good.

The note on this particular verse in my Bible is "God permits evil for the sake of a greater good," which is something I'd have to think about for quite some time before I made much sense of it.
 
Sorry to be "uncool" but as I say logic is about the only thing I as a mortal have to go on. If God creates evil then he is not benevolent.
To begin your claimed dependence upon logic is false. You are not spock. You do not act like spock. You do not interact with the world like spock. Your brain does not act like spock's. Unless you are substantially derranged, you are more emotional than logical. Sorry.

Does evil not exist in the world? Is Charles Manson not evil? Is Adolf Hitler not evil? Joseph Stalin?

EDIT: So are you saying that there is no such thing as evil?
That would be my position. Cruelty certainly exists in wide variety, but it is very relative to times and places.

So the argument is wrong? Is it not true that God created everything which exists? Is it not true that evil exists? Is it not true that God does not create evil? Is it therefore logically possible that all these things could be true? God could create everything and not create evil which exists?

So God does not create evil then? But I assume evil exists in which case God would not have created everything which exists? I mean if evil exists and God does not create it then he didn't create everything which exists. If God created everything which exists and evil exists he must have created it too?
Logic is a magnificent tool when used appropriately. Your use of it is little more than:

God is love
Love is blind
Ray Charles is blind
Ray Charles is God

It's cute and catchy, but when you actually think about it, it makes no sense. Your OP is much the same. Evil, God, benevolence etc are all complicated ideas and deserve a more thoughtful approach.

The following NT quote is pretty clear in its statement that evil is a temporary condition and in the end, all (including even the devil) will one day become one with god. In the end benevolence wins.
1 Corinthians 15:

20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under his feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
 
About the semantics, benevolence as the "desire to do good to others" strikes me as a decent working definition, note that this isn't the same "always does good for others in all ways possible" as I defined omnibenevolence.

If God is "simply" benevolent then would he also want to harm others? How does doing some harm to others reconcile with being "benevolent" if benevolence is the "desire to do good to others?"
Well we could suppose a conflicted God, a God who has the since desire to do good but has some overarching principle that must be superior to that (such as free will as mentioned before) but poses some logical incompatibility with the least "evil" approach. I would still describe such a being as potentially benevolent (because of His sincere desire to do good).

One potent argument you have yet to address Eran's denial of the badness of evil. I think it can solve the problem.
 
Gary Childress, your argument has been pwned many times over in this very thread, by:
1. Fayadi, and his lottery analogy. I see you avoided answering his question, so I pose it again: Is the lottery company responsible or did they commit the terrorist act made possible by the lottery winnings? Creating the tool used for some act does not mean one committed the act. E.g. gun manufacturers don't kill people, people kill people - with guns.
2. Some poster, and the problem of defining evil: Where is the line between evil and good drawn? It will be arbitrary, evil or good cannot be defined.
3. Some poster, and the problem of knowing good without evil: Since one cannot know good without evil or vice versa, wouldn't a benevolent God create some evil so that we might know good?
4. Perf's complex Godhood: Even if God allows some evil to occur He can still be benevolent, if His sincere desire is to do good.

Let me add one, which kinda ties in with Perf's point, but with a Biblical twist/support. God is complex, and has all the feelings of man (and perhaps more). This is evident from reading the Bible. In the Bible God is described as hateful and loving, wrathful and merciful, jealous and forgiving, and many more - those are just off the top of my head. The point is that God can not be summed up in one trait or one emotion, He is complex and I believe that when Genesis says we are made in His image, that verse is talking about our complex personalities - our emotions and relational nature.
So He can be benevolent and yet allow evil. Which is really a more difficult question to answer than your version of the problem of evil. Why does God allow evil to exist is harder to answer than "If there is evil and God created everything, then God created evil, right?"
 
I view this stance as a successful defeat of the problem of evil. It could be that the "evil" that we now perceive is in the long run actually good for all of us.

That's why I create as much natural evil as I possibly can.
Eran's god is not as easy to disprove, because he does not posit a God who is anywhere near omnipotent. It's more of the 'floating teapot' version of a god.

Homie's solutions #3, #4 require a non-omnipotent god as well.
 
Even if I weren't omnibenevolent, but merely benevolent, I would still have created no being capable of commiting evil acts.
 
Eran's god is not as easy to disprove, because he does not posit a God who is anywhere near omnipotent. It's more of the 'floating teapot' version of a god.

Well, bear in mind that I also believe that all that I know about God came through revelation - ie, God is a floating teapot who talsk to people. Of course, mentioning that tends to open up a whole new can of worms.
 
Eran's god is not as easy to disprove, because he does not posit a God who is anywhere near omnipotent.
I don't think that omnipotence is necessarily incompatible with our world and benevolence when evil isn't as evil as it appears to be.
 
God is love
Love is blind
Ray Charles is blind
Ray Charles is God

That's manifestly not logical, and not using logic. I don't know what the person you quoted's actual point is, but I just thought I'd point out that (yet again!) your logic-bashing ends up being a "birdjaguar shows off how he doesn't have the slightest clue what he's talking about" show.

If you think Childress is equivocating, explain exactly how. On what term is he equivocating? Which premises of his argument use different definitions of the equivocal term, and why is it that under either consistent disambiguation his argument is either invalid or has at least one false premise?

I'd also like to point out that were it someone else accusing you of equivocating (which is essentially an argument that they are making a semantic error) you would promptly dismiss them on the grounds that they are "playing language games" and "obfuscating language". :lol: :lol:

Of course, its not clear whether there is any point whatsoever in debating you on anything, because you proudly renounce reason as if doing so indicates some wink-smiley-inducing profundity into your worldview. It doesn't, of course, it just insulates you from criticism so at the end you can believe precisely whatever you feel like believing. There is a sort of tension with you, though. Someone who really renounced logic and reason wouldn't feel the need to try to argue reasonably like you sometimes do. I suspect that the answer is that youd' like for your worldview to be grounded in rationality, so you ape philosophical discourse whenever you get the chance to argue with people who don't know any better. Of course, when you argue with people who do know better, you can retreat to the tried-and-true tactic of accusing them of playing language games, then renouncing "logic and reason", then throwing in a wink-smiley for good measure!







Personally, I don't find that there is a satisfying answer to the problem of evil. Most involve either changing the definition of God, or just throwing up a dressed-up version of the copout "God works in mysterious ways! ;)". Harping on the meaning of the term "evil" won't help anything either, and really just amounts to reading too much into the title of a philosophical problem.

Here's my view of things:

Either God is Anselmian in nature (i.e. the greatest possible being) or he's the God of the scripture.

If he's the Anselmian God, then his permitting evil is inconsistent with his nature, so he can't exist.

If he's the God of the scripture, then he's a pretty lousy individual. One might even say a moral monster.

So on either major conception of God, the problem of evil exists.

Now, God's being a moral monster doesn't entail that he doesn't exist, but it does give one serious pause! Besides, most people like some sort of Anselmian God anyways.

Any attempted refutation of the idea that a non-Anselmian God is a moral monster rests on a series of just-so stories about evil that are intellectually dubious and wouldn't pass muster in any sort of serious debate (e.g. God allowed some 4 year old girl to burn to death in her room because she might have grown up to be worse than Hitler or because it was necessary to give someone free will or some such other patent nonsense).

Then things quickly degenerate into dime store skeptical posturings, etc..

Maybe I can't argue someone out of the position that the problem of evil is not easily solvable, but this is for the same reason you can't argue someone out of determined full-blown skepticism. That doesn't make their view right/rational/etc.
 
If he's the God of the scripture, then he's a pretty lousy individual. One might even say a moral monster.

I assume that by that you mean primarily God as described in the Old Testament, specifically the first five books, as that is what people generally mean when they speak of the Bible when using it to describe God as evil. In which case:

Either God is Anselmian in nature (i.e. the greatest possible being) or he's the God of the scripture.

Why? What makes these the only possibilities?

Most involve either changing the definition of God.

Well, what is the problem with saying that God may or may not have certain traits?
 
Fifty, I gotta run soon, so Imma ask mo' questions later, but What's your opinion on Eran's just so story?

Maybe "natural evil" isn't as bad as we think it is - bad enough to be sure, but in the long run just adding to the variety of ways in which we die.
 
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