Solver's unofficial BtS 3.17 patch

[Wodan]

Oh, okay.

Well, my two cents is if the AI can truly determine that there is zero chance of interception (no SAMs, no fighters anywhere in range), then go for it. I have a slight negative about AI cheating (as I implied earlier) but this seems minor enough that it's okay.

Note that there might be some suboptimal AI performance in some cases. The reason the AI has no chance of being intercepted is absolutely because it killed the few interceptors the human built. In which case guaranteed the human is building more. (This is exactly the question you're asking... should the AI capitalize on this weakness during the open "window" timeframe.) Yes, the AI will be able to do some more damage during the interim. However, since the AI wasn't healing, when the human interceptors DO show up (at full strength), the AI will not be able to do anything about it. Of course, at that point the AI will detect the interceptors and will stop to heal, as you mentioned.

All in all the change seems like a safe one.

Wodan

 

[Solver]

Note that there might be some suboptimal AI performance in some cases. The reason the AI has no chance of being intercepted is absolutely because it killed the few interceptors the human built. In which case guaranteed the human is building more. (This is exactly the question you're asking... should the AI capitalize on this weakness during the open "window" timeframe.) Yes, the AI will be able to do some more damage during the interim. However, since the AI wasn't healing, when the human interceptors DO show up (at full strength), the AI will not be able to do anything about it. Of course, at that point the AI will detect the interceptors and will stop to heal, as you mentioned.

Yeah, that's exactly why I want it. There will be suboptimal AI performance in some cases, but there always is And currently it's even less optimal IMO. Currently it will heal while you're building more interceptors, then attack again at full health, but the defenders will again be there...

Who knows, maybe in the window the AI has while there are no interceptors, it can take down your oil well and prevent you from building more interceptors

 

[r_rolo1]

@jkp1187 ( and goes to spoilers to not disturb the plane discussion )

Spoiler :

AFAIK what Theocracy is meant to do is what it does nowadays: halt unwanted non state religion spread. Like I wrote before, Firaxis haven't made anything to change that code ( and since it already changed Theo related stuff once ( the religionless Theo thing ) ), I assume, until proven otherwise, that the code is intended to work that way and that AI should accept gifted missionaries.

Theo already has a oportunity cost: first the cost, second the lost ability of getting other religions by natural spread. I agree that it shouldn't blantantly accept all the missionaries, but only the ones that will give them benefit ( like a human would .... C'mon, if you were in theo and a AI gifted you a AP religion missionary, would you auto delete it? )

On the plane topic:

I think that making AI to take a chance with the planes a good idea... it is surely better than letting a possible good oportunity pass by just because they need to put some extra leather in the pilot's seat

 

[Wodan]

Or we can simply ban gifting of missionaries across-the-board. That solves both problems.

Option 3: Prohibit ALL spreading of non-State religion under Theocracy.

Wodan

 

[Wodan]

Who knows, maybe in the window the AI has while there are no interceptors, it can take down your oil well and prevent you from building more interceptors

That would be cool. I would... quite literally... applaud if the AI did this to me.

Wodan

 

[Solver]

Option 3: Prohibit ALL spreading of non-State religion under Theocracy.

Wodan

Nope. That's something the designers didn't want.

 

[EmperorFool]

So you're saying it worked correctly and all my new build units would have the promotion, whereas the gazillion units I already had were SOL?

I believe that is the case. I recently completed a quest -- though I swear I never got a popup that I had started a quest -- that gave all future melee units Cover. Wow, that was really nice come maces vs. longbows!

Is the warrior that upgraded to an axeman somehow inferior to one that was never a warrior? I don't think so.

In my view, yes it is. Upgrade troops aren't being retrained in combat, thus they don't benefit from a cities Military Instructors or any XP-increasing buildings. Instead, they are purchased new equipment and sent back into the field. Obviously in real life they would have to be retrained, but they wouldn't be sent through all the same training as they were veterans; it would be a quick "here's how this stuff works" training.

New Axemen would be trained from the beginning to use axes, and thus they would benefit from whatever new training gives the Shock promotion.

 

[Solver]

That would be cool. I would... quite literally... applaud if the AI did this to me.

Wodan

It will actually try to destroy your oil wells with high priority if any happen to be within bombardment range. It's just that you usually have several sources of Oil and hopefully at least one is somewhere deep in your territory where planes can't get to it.

 

[KaytieKat]

Hi

My only thought on AI agressiveness with planes is that I hope it works with the AI's indvidual tendencies and not just seperate from it. Like some AI's wont do an attack unless they feel a VERY high chance to win and other like Monty will kamikaze any chance they get.

So for like the timid AI's they would want the planes healed a lot more before using em again and the more agressive AI's wouldnt care as much so as long as they have a sliver of life they send em in. Then there would be the ones who fit in somewhere in between

Kaytie

 

[Caboose]

You realize your name says right to the left of your post? Just so you know you don't have to write your name in every post.

On topic I don't think anyone should kamikaze their planes, unless they have a decent chance at succeeding at completing their mission. I don't think aggressive should be the same as suicidal. The fact that different leaders have different personalities is really good though.

 

[r_rolo1]

Hi

My only thought on AI agressiveness with planes is that I hope it works with the AI's indvidual tendencies and not just seperate from it. Like some AI's wont do an attack unless they feel a VERY high chance to win and other like Monty will kamikaze any chance they get.

So for like the timid AI's they would want the planes healed a lot more before using em again and the more agressive AI's wouldnt care as much so as long as they have a sliver of life they send em in. Then there would be the ones who fit in somewhere in between

Kaytie

Somebody wants Japanese Kamikazes

Actually it is a good idea. Not sure if easy to implement of if in the scope of this patch though...

 

[Xenomorph]

I'm sorry if this has been asked already, but I'm not terribly inclined to search through 18 pages to see if has been asked.
Could you include the changes Bhruic added in his patch that were left out from 3.17? Namely:

• Vassal's spies will no longer be "caught" in your territory
• Mouse-over for Join City now displays extra bonuses for Great People
• Vassals freed by Capitulating Master no longer refuse to talk
• Automated Workers will no longer idle in cities within 2 squares of a hostile border
• Stolen techs can no longer be traded with No Tech Brokering enabled
• AI Civs under Theocracy will no longer accept gifted Missionaries
• Tweaks/bugfixes to improve starting city locations (thanks SevenSpirits)
• Rivers added for starting locations will generate flood plains if they pass through desert tiles

 

[Solver]

Thanks for the list, Xenomorph. Some of those I'll want to include but not all of them.

 

[Wolfshanze]

I'm sorry if this has been asked already, but I'm not terribly inclined to search through 18 pages to see if has been asked.
Could you include the changes Bhruic added in his patch that were left out from 3.17? Namely:

• Vassal's spies will no longer be "caught" in your territory
• Mouse-over for Join City now displays extra bonuses for Great People
• Vassals freed by Capitulating Master no longer refuse to talk
• Automated Workers will no longer idle in cities within 2 squares of a hostile border
• Stolen techs can no longer be traded with No Tech Brokering enabled
• AI Civs under Theocracy will no longer accept gifted Missionaries
• Tweaks/bugfixes to improve starting city locations (thanks SevenSpirits)
• Rivers added for starting locations will generate flood plains if they pass through desert tiles

Thanks Xeno... I 2nd the request.

 

[Wodan]

You realize your name says right to the left of your post? Just so you know you don't have to write your name in every post.

You realize you can quote people, so that we all know who you are talking to?

Just kidding.

Wodan

 

[Xenomorph]

The ones that I enjoyed the most in that list were all but numbers #5 and #6. The must-haves, IMO, are #1, #3, #4 and #7. The Great Person mouse-over (#2) was very helpful, and #8 got rid of a lot of annoying cases where there should have been flood planes. #7, I understand, got rid of the "forest of death" problem that some people had. I would strongly suggest using #3 and #4 as well.

 

[Wodan]

Nope. That's something the designers didn't want.

Then the options narrow down to either dramatically increase AI code in this area to deal with all the pros/cons, or to face the fact that this would be a huge amount of effort and to implement Bhruic's compromise as the best solution to minimize the exploits. My two cents.

Wodan

 

[Roland Johansen]

Another question to you guys. Currently, the AI will never undertake any aerial missions if the plane is damaged. So it only attacks with full-health planes. It's an okay general rule, but I am thinking of allowing it to attack with damaged planes if there are no enemy interceptors in the area and the mission would still be guaranteed to succeed. Thoughts?

You're right that the rule 'always attack when there is no air cover' and the rule 'always heal when wounded' are both suboptimal. But the AI is quite stupid, so to teach it close to optimal rules is probably just a dream.

In this case, I would want to make a distinction between bombers and fighters. Bombers should always attack when there is no air cover even if they're wounded. That's pretty clear as there is no other job that they can do and it is usually better to bomb now than bomb in the future. Most things in civ are better when acquired earlier.
Fighters however are far less capable at damaging ground troops and their primary goal should be to clean the skies of opposing fighters and bombers. They need to protect their own land troops against opposing fighters and bombers and they need to clean the skies for their own bombers. It is far more important that a bomber can bomb in the future than that a fighter can bomb now (mostly true). They can't do that job well when they don't heal whenever possible. A damaged fighter can't defend ground troops well and it can't clean the sky of opposing fighters well.

So in my opinion:
When the enemy has no air cover, bombers should take advantage of the situation and bomb even when damaged, fighters should heal when damaged.


By the way, I think that the AI doesn't always use its bombing capacities smartly. Bombing troops that can heal back their health while not taking advantage of the weakened state of these units is quite useless. It is just going to cost you some airplanes to AA while not gaining anything. But this is not related to the health of the airplanes. It's a general comment about bombing priorities.

 

[Scotsh]

By the way, I think that the AI doesn't always use its bombing capacities smartly. Bombing troops that can heal back their health while not taking advantage of the weakened state of these units is quite useless. It is just going to cost you some airplanes to AA while not gaining anything. But this is not related to the health of the airplanes. It's a general comment about bombing priorities.

Well that is not quite true.
First, you cant always know if you will deal more damage than the stack can heal back till next round, even if there is no AA, because damage is still luck based then.
Second, by damaging the stack you are already delaying them (eventually) and if its only for one round. Sure you can argue if thats enough benefit for some lost planes but it can make a difference.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Well that is not quite true.
First, you cant always know if you will deal more damage than the stack can heal back till next round, even if there is no AA, because damage is still luck based then.
Second, by damaging the stack you are already delaying them (eventually) and if its only for one round. Sure you can argue if thats enough benefit for some lost planes but it can make a difference.

Actually units for any civ heal at the beginning of their turn - not at the end of a turn. (EDIT... well I suspect you already know this but I'll make the point nonetheless.) The consequences of this may not be obvious, but it means that if an AI has some healing capacity eg. a medic, being in a city etc., then it's quite possible his units will be mostly healed by the start of his turn, when he'll be ready to use them again. Actually this happens frequently, as eligible units in cities by default heal 20HP (20% of 100HP) per turn as a minimum. Any medic or hospital only increases this.