Soviet Contributions to Modern world

Ho Chi Minh wasn't bad, neither was Julius Caesar... (At least not THAT bad... :p) And Napoleon was a dictator in a sense...

Most dictators are viewed as crude and violent, and most are...

Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, etc.

(Note: Mao actually wasn't a dictator)
 
Stop comparing Julius Caesar to modern dictators like Stalin. Things that are acceptable in I century BC are not acceptable in XX century AD.

And Jews ARE a race, which belongs to semitic group of races.
 
And Jews ARE a race, which belongs to semitic group of races.

Of course they're not. All the Jews I know are completely indistinguishable from other white people. It would make more sense to say that blondes are a race. Jews themselves will tell you that being Jewish is a matter of being circumcised (if you're male) and having a Jewish mother. That's got nothing to do with race.

The idea that you could divide people up into "races", and that someone whose ancestry contained a sufficient number of members of one "race" would themselves belong to that "race", irrespective of their own physiognomy, may have been fashionable 70 or 80 years ago but doesn't have much going for it these days, in my opinion. And the notion of Jewishness as a "race" is part of it.

Not that this has got much to do with the topic of the thread though.
 
Not without our help; Russia recieved from the U.S. over 375,000 trucks, 14,000 airplanes, 8,000 tractors, three million tires, 11,000 railroad cars, 50,000 jeeps, four and a half million tons of food rations, 30 million boots, and 100 million tons of cotton.

True, however, the only significant area of American aid was railroads. Other aid wasn't that significant.

Russian won the war due to the fact that Russians had tens of thousands of tanks and planes produced by the Russian industry. I doubt that soviets won the war because of American aid. I don't dispute that American aid had an affect on Russian war effort, but saying it was even a major reason for Russian victory sounds like an exaggeration.

Personally, I consider the most significant soviet contribution to be in the areas of science and some undisputed economic achievements, though these had a terrible dark-side. Many ruthless and brutal empires of our time and recent history, like Nazi Germany, British Empire, Soviet Union, Israel, had many achievements in technology and science, but with a terrible down-side, the suffering and deaths of millions.

The other achievement of the Soviet Empire was how it managed to limit American power. Had United States been the sole super power from the very beginning, I fear the world would a much worse place to live for many.

The Demoractic Batista regime? He was the general that killed thousands of his own people but the US supported him against Casro becuase he defended US Interests in CUba

Batista regime was never democratic. Back then, America tyranny over Cuba killed thousands, and it continues to today, with American terrorism and economic strangling.

I think many still hold the illusion that United States is somehow better than Soviet Union in its foreign policy. While US allows more freedom to its citizens, it wasn't no less brutal when fighting over the globe. American terrorism in the Latin America, Reagan terrorism, Bush I terrorism etc and attempts to control and coerce Latin America and the Middle East were just as bad as Soviet tyranny over the eastern Europe and other areas. Iraq war is just as bad as the soviet invasion of Afghanistan.
 
, British Empire,

The other achievement of the Soviet Empire was how it managed to limit American power. Had United States been the sole super power from the very beginning, I fear the world would a much worse place to live for many.



Batista regime was never democratic. Back then, America tyranny over Cuba killed thousands, and it continues to today, with American terrorism and economic strangling.

I think many still hold the illusion that United States is somehow better than Soviet Union in its foreign policy. While US allows more freedom to its citizens, it wasn't no less brutal when fighting over the globe. American terrorism in the Latin America, Reagan terrorism, Bush I terrorism etc and attempts to control and coerce Latin America and the Middle East were just as bad as Soviet tyranny over the eastern Europe and other areas. Iraq war is just as bad as the soviet invasion of Afghanistan.

Off Topic is the place to spew your political rhetoric, not World History.
 
I don't know whether it's "political rhetoric" or not but at least it's relevant to the topic. It's certainly true that the US has had a pretty nasty record in certain elements of its foreign policy during the Cold War. The question is, though, whether it would have been better or worse without the Cold War. Wouldn't there be a good case for saying that without the Cold War, the US would have had much less of a motive to do some of these dodgy things? Without the perceived threat of the USSR there would have been less of a tendency to support extreme right-wing regimes throughout the world as bulwarks against communism. There would have been far less motive for Carter and Reagan to send money to the repressive government of El Salvador in the late 70s and early 80s, for example, since the rationale for that was that even an insanely murderous right-wing junta was preferable to communists. So without the USSR, perhaps the US would have had more international influence than it has actually done, but that influence might have been more benign. I also suspect that, without the perceived threat of the USSR, domestic US politics would have been a lot less right-wing. There would have been no McCarthyism in the 1950s, and the "religious right" would have had a more difficult time rising to prominence in the 1980s without the Cold War and the supposed threat of atheist communism.
 
The question is, though, whether it would have been better or worse without the Cold War. Wouldn't there be a good case for saying that without the Cold War, the US would have had much less of a motive to do some of these dodgy things? ... There would have been no McCarthyism in the 1950s, and the "religious right" would have had a more difficult time rising to prominence in the 1980s without the Cold War and the supposed threat of atheist communism.

That's a very good point. :goodjob:
Would the US become isolationist again (except where it concerned Latin America), or would it insist in retaining the influence over the world that it had won during the war? After all, the US was the driving force behind the UN and its charter, which proposed a rather better world than the one we have now. Thanks, I'll have to think about it.
 
True, however, the only significant area of American aid was railroads. Other aid wasn't that significant.
"Only significant area was railroads?"

How is it that 375,000 trucks, 50,000 jeeps, 14,000 airplanes, etc., etc. can all be "not that significant?"
 
Theres a whole book "Stalin's Last Crime: The Plot Against the Jewish Doctors, 1948-1953" By Jonathan Brent on the affair. Essentially just before his death, Stalin was preparing for a purge of Jews on a scale that would surpass the Pogroms.

Thanks. Didn't know about that.

Now, as for what actually was done to the Jews, for example there was the fact that it was illegal to teach Hebrew, except for the Soviet foreign office. The percentage of synogogues closed under the soviets was much higher then Eastern Orthodox Churches and Mosques.

Besides Hebrew, all formal Judaic education was banned, but other groups suffered likewise in the U.S.S.R.

Jews were forcedm to live in Pales, which were effectively Jewish ghettos, where Jews were forced to concentrate.

This occured under tsarist rule before the Soviet Union.

It's also worth noting that right up until the fall of the USSR, Jews were refused the right to leave the country, and move to Israel, and they became known asd "Refuseniks"

They also emigrated to the U.K., U.S. or wherever else they could when they managed to leave the U.S.S.R.

I remember signing petitions requesting the freedom of refuseniks during the 80s. When the U.S.S.R. collapsed, thousands of Jews left for Israel & elsewhere, but Russian Jewish communities are starting to rebound again.

Are you serious? Well maybe it's just because I'm German and Germans who adopt anything from the NSDAP-ideology (like this race-thing) are for the rest of the population so clear nazis like Osama Bin Laden is an islamist, but where I come from Jews being a race was always considered an invention of Hitler and underwriters, and that they are truly as much a race like Christans, Hindus and whoever else....
So if they are considers a real race now this would be very interesting ('cause it would offend everything I was told so far)

You were taught correctly. The Nazis saw the "superiority of the Aryan race" as central to their ideology. Anyone not "Aryan" was a threat in their view, Jews included. Hence, it was a racial issue to them.

I don't like to view humans as "races" at all. I prefer to think of it as the human race comprised of different ethnicities.

Because Jews are regarded to be an ethnicity, usually Semitic.

There are not very many Jews who are not also ethnically Semetic; Judaism doesn't have that "missionary" attribute that Christianity and Islam have, you just don't find many people converting to Judaism. Thus, the people mainly identified as being Jews are the Semites.

Arabs, Bedouins & others are also Semitic. In the West, the term, anti-Semitic has been used almost exclusively to describe anti-Jewish bigotry so the term, Semitic is often thought of as meaning Jewish. In fact, it does not. I guess anti-Jewish is a better term for what anti-Semitic is used for most often.

A couple of generations ago, there weren't that many non-Jewish Semites living in the West. Five years ago in Cairo, an Egyptian man bragged to me that there were more Egyptians living in the U.S. than in Egypt. I have no idea why he was so proud of it.

Religon is Opiate of the masses, easy as dat

Hey, we agree on something! The Soviet era was not a good time to be a religious person living in the U.S.S.R.

Quick, without looking: what does that mean?

Too funny!

Nobody tought me history, I have learned it myself.

Education is a wonderful thing. You should look into it.

I was speaking about WW1.

The Soviet Union came after WWI. This thread is clearly about the U.S.S.R.

I said that the British invented an incredibly effective propaganda machine during WWI.

Actually, you didn't mention WWI in your post. Since WWI was before the Soviet era, we could only assume you meant WWII.

Before the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq, it was the media that spread the hype and thrill about the coming war, and acted as government's mouth piece, in fact some of them worked with the military.

Probably so to some extent, but the Bush administration is probably the most anti-press administration we've ever had.

And Jews ARE a race, which belongs to semitic group of races.

Many ruthless and brutal empires of our time and recent history, like Nazi Germany, British Empire, Soviet Union, Israel, had many achievements in technology and science, but with a terrible down-side, the suffering and deaths of millions.

Israel is about the size of the U.S. state of New Jersey. You can drive from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem in about 45 minutes in heavy traffic. Not much of an "empire."

The other achievement of the Soviet Empire was how it managed to limit American power. Had United States been the sole super power from the very beginning, I fear the world would a much worse place to live for many.

Yeah! Freedom of religion, speech, thought, self government...those ideas suxxor!

Batista regime was never democratic. Back then, America tyranny over Cuba killed thousands, and it continues to today, with American terrorism and economic strangling.

Please, name the last American terrorist attack in Cuba...

Iraq war is just as bad as the soviet invasion of Afghanistan.

I don't know about that, but I agree it was a foolish move on our part.

It's certainly true that the US has had a pretty nasty record in certain elements of its foreign policy during the Cold War. The question is, though, whether it would have been better or worse without the Cold War. Wouldn't there be a good case for saying that without the Cold War, the US would have had much less of a motive to do some of these dodgy things? Without the perceived threat of the USSR there would have been less of a tendency to support extreme right-wing regimes throughout the world as bulwarks against communism. There would have been far less motive for Carter and Reagan to send money to the repressive government of El Salvador in the late 70s and early 80s, for example, since the rationale for that was that even an insanely murderous right-wing junta was preferable to communists. So without the USSR, perhaps the US would have had more international influence than it has actually done, but that influence might have been more benign. I also suspect that, without the perceived threat of the USSR, domestic US politics would have been a lot less right-wing. There would have been no McCarthyism in the 1950s, and the "religious right" would have had a more difficult time rising to prominence in the 1980s without the Cold War and the supposed threat of atheist communism.

All good points. Just think of the trillions of dollars spent on the Cold War by both sides. Those resources could have done allot of good otherwise.

How come the word "Jew" can't be mentioned on this forum without a "what is a Jew" debate occuring? Plotinus' answer is correct, BTW.
 
About Jews bring a race... In fact, most Jews (including myself - I am half-Russian, half-Jewish!) have a characteristic Semitic nose... Besides, yeah, the Jewish race, due to assimilation and inter-racial marriage are not so easily distinguishable.

All the Jews I know are completely indistinguishable from other white people.

I doubt that you can distinguise a French person from a German, still that doesn't mean there is no such thing as French or German race.

Judaism is not a proselitic religion, so the aren't many not Jewish followers of Judaism. But even nowdays in Russia there are some remote villages where the people, Russian by blood, are Judaistic (the memory of Khazarian kaganate, maybe?)

Sorry, but saying that there is no Jewish race, that all the Russian Jews belong to Russian race is a bit anti-Jewish... Just like Turkey denying the exictence of Kurdish race is a bit anti-Kurdish.

On-topic:

Personally, I consider the most significant soviet contribution to be in the areas of science and some undisputed economic achievements, though these had a terrible dark-side. Many ruthless and brutal empires of our time and recent history, like Nazi Germany, British Empire, Soviet Union, Israel, had many achievements in technology and science, but with a terrible down-side, the suffering and deaths of millions.

Nazi Germany was FAR worse them the USSR or the British Empire. And Israel is hardly "a ruthless and brutal empire of our time", althrough I don't support the last Israel war.

All good points. Just think of the trillions of dollars spent on the Cold War by both sides. Those resources could have done allot of good otherwise.

I agree. That especially hurted Soviet Union - Russia now has to forgive all the debts that various third-world countries own to her 'cause these contries simply can't pay Russia. Oh, if these millions of $ were put to do some real good things...

Iraq war is just as bad as the soviet invasion of Afghanistan.

I nearly agree. Althrough I have no sympathy for Saddam, I really don't know what good this invasion has done for Iraq.
 
I doubt that you can distinguise a French person from a German, still that doesn't mean there is no such thing as French or German race.

Of course there's no such thing as distinct French or German races. If two people can be physically indistinguishable but said to belong to different races, then the term "race" is meaningless. Furthermore there is no "one" French race. Do you think Jacques Chirac and Thierry Henry belong to the same race? If you do, then aren't you using the word "race" to mean "nationality"? They are not the same thing.

Sorry, but saying that there is no Jewish race, that all the Russian Jews belong to Russian race is a bit anti-Jewish... Just like Turkey denying the exictence of Kurdish race is a bit anti-Kurdish.

I don't believe in a "Russian race" either. I believe in a Russian nation, which included people of different races; but I don't think that Jews are a distinct race in themselves. Given that Maimonides agrees with me on this, at least, I don't think it can be called an anti-Jewish view!

Maimonides said:
How come the word "Jew" can't be mentioned on this forum without a "what is a Jew" debate occuring?

I suppose it's one of those subjects on which many people have strange views, so argument is inevitable!

It's not relevant to this topic though. We already thrashed it out pretty much round about here, and I suppose OT is the forum where it should be discussed, although I wouldn't hold out for a very informed debate there...
 
Ho Chi Minh wasn't bad, neither was Julius Caesar... (At least not THAT bad... :p) And Napoleon was a dictator in a sense...

Well, Julius was responsible for the usual genocide, powermongering, warmongering, fearmongering, murder, torture, corruption... you name it.

Stop comparing Julius Caesar to modern dictators like Stalin. Things that are acceptable in I century BC are not acceptable in XX century AD.

The "morals" of war have not changed from the times of Timur, but there are only new factors to consider.
 
Nazi Germany was FAR worse them the USSR or the British Empire. And Israel is hardly "a ruthless and brutal empire of our time", althrough I don't support the last Israel war.

True, I consider Nazi armies to be the most genocidal warmachines humanity has ever raised. However, Nazi Germany was not far worse than USSR or the British Empire. USSR was responsible for the deaths of tens of millions and the same is true for the British Empire -- the British state policy caused the deaths of tens of millions in India, hundreds of thousands in Africa, etc.

Israel is a brutal and ruthless empire. Israel's oppression of the Palestinian population is the worst colonial conflict we have today. Something like 6 million Palestinians are forced to live in poverty, humiliation, oppression under crushing IDF tyranny. The difference between Israel and other Empires in the recent past, is that Israel simply does it in a smaller scale and has factors to consider, like PR-image and intense media attention and scrutiny.

Education is a wonderful thing. You should look into it.

Or not. The education available to me offered only elementary knowladge of history. I learned most of history myself.


The Soviet Union came after WWI. This thread is clearly about the U.S.S.R.

Yes. But if you actually bother to read my posts, you'd see what I meant. I meant that Soviets were NOT the main contributors to the evolution of propaganda, but it was the British who were the true masters of propaganda.

Actually, you didn't mention WWI in your post. Since WWI was before the Soviet era, we could only assume you meant WWII.

I also didn't mention WW2, did I?

Probably so to some extent, but the Bush administration is probably the most anti-press administration we've ever had.

No, the Bush Admin. harnessed the power of the Media... no doubt. Bush has great amount of control over the media... Before the war, all the media concentrated on the issues the gov wanted, not on, for example, coercion of other governments to give their vote for the war.

Also, Media often complies with the US gov by not reporting certain things.


Israel is about the size of the U.S. state of New Jersey. You can drive from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem in about 45 minutes in heavy traffic. Not much of an "empire."

What kind of an arguement is this?

Yeah! Freedom of religion, speech, thought, self government...those ideas suxxor!

Oh, I'm sure the tortured corposes on the streets of Nicaragua and Salvador were happy to enjoy those ideals!

Or the people napalmed in Vietnam!

Or the people or East-Timor!

Please, name the last American terrorist attack in Cuba...

There was a case when Cuban officials sent operatives into Florida, because they had suspicious that these terrorists operated from Florida. Indeed, they found that Florida acted as a base for these terrorists and later, Cuban officials welcomed FBI agents to see these findings. Well, action was taken against these people, namely against the Cuban "spies" who were sentenced to solitary confiment by the pathetic excuse of judical system that is in power in Florida. The terrorist activities continue today.

I don't know about that, but I agree it was a foolish move on our part.

This was also a hidious mockery of international law. The war also has caused the deaths of 600,000 people.
 
@ Plotinus: Okay, I understand what you mean.

About Israel - well, they did leave the Gaza area and now have no control on the happenings there.
 
Back
Top Bottom