Captain2
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Out of curiosity, is there any scenario following WW2 where the USSR could have begun a shift towards a Democratic socialist government without the end result of their destruction?
Soviet Liberalization?
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RedRalph
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I often wonder this myself. Economically, they could have tried to go Yugoslavia direction (which I wish they had done). Socially... well, its undoubtedly possible, its happened in China now, its a hell of a lot more liberal socially than uit was under Mao. Maybe they could have legalised weed as a method of discouraging rampant alcoholism, or banned the death penalty, theres noting in Soviet dogma that would have stood in the way of either of those measures. Politically? Hard to see it.
The Soviet Union, being essentially a federation of distinct ethnic republics, is unlikely to survive once it goes democratic - the ethnicities would opted for independence. It depends on many factors though.
As for economic and social liberalisation, it's been attempted several times in Soviet history - Lenin's NEP, Khrushchev's Reforms, and then Perestroika. But as far as the historical Soviet leadership goes, they're for the most part pretty hardline towards liberalisation, and building up the military is for many more important than providing the people with consumer goods or liberalising society. When liberalisation finally came in the late 1980s Gorbachev attempted to do too many things in too little time, and it was too late to save the Soviet Union anyway - the people are thoroughly fed up with the system.
As for economic and social liberalisation, it's been attempted several times in Soviet history - Lenin's NEP, Khrushchev's Reforms, and then Perestroika. But as far as the historical Soviet leadership goes, they're for the most part pretty hardline towards liberalisation, and building up the military is for many more important than providing the people with consumer goods or liberalising society. When liberalisation finally came in the late 1980s Gorbachev attempted to do too many things in too little time, and it was too late to save the Soviet Union anyway - the people are thoroughly fed up with the system.
Cheezy the Wiz
Socialist In A Hurry
I'm sure the USSR could've done a lot better had they not been competing for their lives with a far outclassed economy a few thousand miles away.
As for independence, there was a clause in the Soviet Constitution which allowed republics to secede from the Union, though a political process, of course...
As for independence, there was a clause in the Soviet Constitution which allowed republics to secede from the Union, though a political process, of course...
Cheezy the Wiz
Socialist In A Hurry
I'm sure the USSR could've done a lot better had they not been competing for their lives with a far outclassed economy a few thousand miles away.
As for independence, there was a clause in the Soviet Constitution which allowed republics to secede from the Union, through a political process, of course...
As for independence, there was a clause in the Soviet Constitution which allowed republics to secede from the Union, through a political process, of course...
Cato the Elder
King
I sometimes wonder what would've happened if the Soviet Union would've been if it had kept on going after Gorbachov. Or if it had been Trotsky who took power, and not Stalin. The Soviet Union's really something quite tragic in my eyes, it was something that could've been quite beautiful, but just ended up being yet another repressive autocracy, albeit under a different name.
philippe
FYI, I chase trains.
I agree, after all, abortion rights, women voting rights, (even fighting in the armies), the spread of literature, the focus on science, the early great soviet movies and the later philosophical soviet movies,..; those are all great things that are easily forgotten.
I blame Georgia.
Cheezy the Wiz
Socialist In A Hurry
Literacy, that's a bad thing, too. And social security that westerners could only dream of. And price controls on rent. Among other things, of course. Soviet Union was not paradise, but it wasn't as bad as you'll be led to believe.
Rent controls? The best way to destroy city, other than carpet bombings.
I don't see how the regime that mudered the most people in the history of mankind is anything other than really, really bad. Not paradise? More like hell.
More on topic, the only way the USSR could have liberalized would be a complete and total repudiation of communism. Communism is inherently anti-democratic and totalitarian, as not only history but also Marx's and Lenin's writings prove.
BEHIND_THE_MASK
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I disagree with you on the subject of Communism being anti-democratic and such...
While to this point in history Communism has been that way, I believe that democracy and freedom can exist fully in a Communist society.
Current forms such as Marxism, Leninism a Stalinism may not permit such, but each system is different and whose to say one wont come along that is different from the before?
There can exist a democratic collectivist society (though not liberal-democratic), but never a democratic marxist society. Is that what you are trying to say? I agree with that. Not that said society would be any good, but that's another discussion.
BEHIND_THE_MASK
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Well, not really a Marxist society to say...
I've always said I've been working on my own form of Communism (hint. the avatar) which works more so on the social perspective in equality, rights, ect. rather then the economic centralization of previous forms.
Though I've always proclaimed myself a Communist I prefer emphasis on the aspects of democracy and liberal ideas rather then centralized and conservatives ones...
The point though is that I believe under correct circumstances and leadership, democracy and freedom can thrive in a Communist Society. Even if its only Communist in name and far from some of Marx's ideals and theories.
Cheezy the Wiz
Socialist In A Hurry
I know, letting those dirty poor people live in decent houses is a crime.
I don't expect you to agree with me. But then, you think every leftist is a Stalin or a Pol Pot, and that every socialist society in history was like an eternal Stalin's purge.
Oh please. If Lenin intended it to be anti-democratic, they why bother to create the soviets? As for Marx, I've never found anything to indicate a preference for something non-democratic. If anything, a democratic system would FAVOR a socialist society over a capitalist one. Take your nonsense and drivel somewhere else.
Cheezy the Wiz
Socialist In A Hurry
EDIT: Double Post.
I was rather talking about ignoring all economic theory and empirical observations that point to the catastrophe that is rent controls. But hey, if you want to make it all about a bleeding heart, be my guest.
Except it wasn't only Stalin who killed people. Lenin was a mass murderer, Kruschev never exitated to kill his enemies, I don't have to menion how Brejnev dealt with Afghanistan.
Did the SU or not kill tens of millions of people? Is that fact just "not good" or actually terrible in a dramatic scale?
OK, I see now that you know nothing of Lenin. I suggest reading his biography by Dmitri Volkogonov, who was a soviet general and head of the History Department of the Soviet Army. His book show just how much Lenin regarded democracy.
It is also full of some incovenient documents for you soviet apologists, such as Lenin's many orders of extra-judicial executions. But that's all fine in your book.
Have you ever even read Marx? My guess is no.
OK, I see now that you know nothing of Lenin. I suggest reading his biography by Dmitri Volkogonov, who was a soviet general and head of the History Department of the Soviet Army. His book show just how much Lenin regarded democracy.
It is also full of some incovenient documents for you soviet apologists, such as Lenin's many orders of extra-judicial executions. But that's all fine in your book.
How good are the English translations of Volkogonov? Would you suggest his other books too?
plarq
Crazy forever
Damn, you agree with each other.
USSR wanted and started that competition
I agree, after all, abortion rights, women voting rights, (even fighting in the armies), the spread of literature, the focus on science, the early great soviet movies and the later philosophical soviet movies,..; those are all great things that are easily forgotten.
I blame Georgia.
God, voting rights
spred of literature beeing the only thing worth mention, and done in every capitalist country anyway
it was eaven whorse then portrayed in todays media and books
soviet economic model had only (mostly) unefficient industry, and destroyed everything else
agriculture beeing the most shiny example, when USSR finnaly fell it couldn't eaven feed it's own population with it's own production
just remember that east europe was major food exporter before brave socialisam came
communism was not only anti-democratic, but also genocidal from the very start
if you read what marx, engels etc. wrote, you will find nice not so little list of ethnic groups that should cease to exist
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