Space 5 - Old hands can be newbs too, getting back in the game

[leif erikson]

If razed, the space will be left open as the cultural boundaries will not shift to encompass the land area.

The main reason I want to raze is happiness. If we are going to take other Alex cities, we do not have enough happy capacity to handle them all. Additionally, the other cities are on rivers that will provide both food and commerce, which we will need.

 

[AlanH]

Left open until ...? Do we plan to fill it, or let others do it?

I guess I'm asking if the actual intention, over time, is to raze and rebuild? If so, maybe it's the Civ5-happiness equivalent of removing flip risk in Civ3? Is there any way to equate the cost of unhappiness vs. the cost of building a settler? I used to have a feel for the relative costs of various options in Civ3, but with zero experience, I have no way to compare these options in Civ5

 

[leif erikson]

Think I would leave it open forever.

Not the best city site and the river cities, plus the other we acquired, should fill the space over time as they expand. There is plenty of Gold between Alex's capital and his city to the south (sorry, not looking at the map atm).

So my opinion would be raze and ignore.

 

[AlanH]

A warning:

There's a patch released today for Civ5 to version 1.0.3.18. It has only been released for Windows, and early indications are that the file format has changed. Assuming the Windows users on this team get the patch, I shall probably not be able to load saves created using the updated version until the Mac version catches up - probably around the time Brave New World is released in a week or two. I am going to try loading it up in my Windows virtual machine, but I suspect the performance will be too slow for playing purposes.

[UPDATE]
Actually the performance under Parallels/Windows is not as bad as I thought it would be. I may be able to play in that mode. The next problem to make you aware of is that the new patch already has a list of issues.

 

[Optional]

lurker's comment: I fear for this SG now. Patches have been a major problem for Succession Games, and this is the most disruptive patch since the June 2011 one.
Diplo is messing up. Dennis Shirk has posted in the bugs forum, asking us to upload affected saves: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=499780.

I'm impressed by the fact itself Dennis Shirk is asking for saves. New games will be fine, they could just have ignored what's happening to existing saves.

About your game; wouldn't you want Athens at least? I could already not upload your saves anymore, so I can't see Athens, but starting locations are guaranteed to be strong, there's a lot of code written in the files to make sure of that. And then you have The Great Wall as well.

When razing a town it loses a citizen each turn until it's gone. Upon capturing it loses a few citizens already, so a small town is quickly history. Some crappy town I would indeed raze. The improved tiles that remain after razing you can pillage for gold.

The diplo hit for completely exterminating a civ is quite big. Leaving Alexander and Catherine on the map is better. Taking a CS gives the same diplo hit as an extermination; I wouldn't do it.
Although Catherine will not be a great research partner if she's very small. Maths is something I immediately forget upon reading it, but if she's not making many beakers, a Research Agreement with her will return relatively few beakers as well. Also she will want money for a Research Agreement if she's an era behind you. It'll still help a bit, so do sign them with her if you have the means, but your best partners are the ones who are more or less equal to you.
Make a priority of getting the Porcelain Tower, for more beakers from Research Agreements. I don't know if a happiness wonder is possible along the line. Of course also meeting the other continent would help happiness, when trading luxes for luxes.

 

[mad-bax]

Thanks Optional. I'm not sure why you cannot get our saves anymore.
I've played the post patch turns now, and the only bug that I was immediately aware of were the grey tiles, but they coloured themselves in after a few seconds, and once I had scrolled over the entire map it was all good. I don't know about the diplo bug. I know that Cathering values marble at 20g per, and iron at 40. But I don't suppose this is a bug - she just wants iron.
From the turnlog you will see what happens in the next few turns....

_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*


IBT:
Our sword gets bombarded by catapult.
Space Station completes stone works.
Teds Keep completes Library
Cat and archer promoted.

118: 75AD
Sword kills Greek catapult
Space station starts colosseum

OK here's the thing... I'm going to spend all our gold
Teds Keep purchases catapult which is immediately promoted (again).Is this because of the barracks?
Teds Keep starts circus.
Neither Catherine or Napoleon seem to want to pay gold for our extra marble.


IBT:
One of our Cats is red lined by bombardment.

119: 100AD
Retreat wounded Cat to heal.
Bombard Argos to yellow.

IBT:
Greek Pike moves into Argos.
Argos Bombards sword
Greek pike then attacks sword and redlines it (this may not be the exact order of events - I was in a state of shock at the time.

120: 125AD
Bombard Argos to almost nothing, but only have the redlined sword with which to take it.
Well, what can you do?
Argos is now being razed.
We have a few nearly dead units littering the countryside.
MBR gets the Colossus next turn and can then start the academy.
Our advisor wants us to research engineering and build aqueducts for science - is this right?
Our puppet - Ainwoods Tor is building a circus - which is nice I think.
Our other puppet - Leif Springs is building a colloseum - which requires maintenance - which is not so good.

What I want to know is why is our marble worthless?
We can trade iron to Cathy for Gold.
Napoleon wants luxes but already has marble.
Remember we are at war with Genoa too.
Alex is going down.

Here is the theatre


Here is the save
View attachment Space 5_Montezuma_0120 AD-0125.Civ5Save

Let's see who can open it.

 

[AlanH]

Download - check
Parse with my revised Civ5 GOTM parser - check
Opened in Windows version 1.0.3.18 - check

I can only see one two red lined units. Everything else looks great

Let's see if I can play it on this Steam-driven make-believe-Windows Mac system.

Got it!

[EDIT]

Here is the two-city, walled state that was Greece. Athens is on the river and has a couple of foggy tiles, and its visible assets are two gold hills, one on the river, some deer, wheat with a a pillaged farm, some horses 4 tiles away, and a mined grassy knoll. Not much in the way of improvements - a couple of roaded tiles.

 

[Optional]

Thanks Optional. I'm not sure why you cannot get our saves anymore.

lurker's comment: AlanH said he had this as well, and that a reinstall of the game sorted it. I could do that as well, but then I would lose some modifications to the original game files that I made, so I'm not keen on that.

Teds Keep purchases catapult which is immediately promoted (again). Is this because of the barracks?

Yes, it's the only thing a barracks does in Civ 5; units built there start out with experience (comparable with units starting as vets in Civ III, but in Civ III barracks also helped with healing and were needed to upgrade units).

Bombard Argos to almost nothing, but only have the redlined sword with which to take it.

If a town is bombarded to the last hitpoint, any melee effort will take it, even a scout on its last hitpoint will take a town then.

Our advisor wants us to research engineering and build aqueducts for science - is this right?

Aqueducts work roughly the way granaries did in Civ III; when a new citizen gets born, the new food box starts out already 40% filled. I didn't know the advisor made a link to science, that would just be a knock-on effect from getting more citizens. Aqueducts themselves do nothing for science.

What I want to know is why is our marble worthless?

Now it's a problem I can't look at the save, but Catherine has just one town, right? Very small civs just become sulking civs that are difficult to deal with, they just envy you for being so much bigger than them, although even for them a lux should be worth more than half the sticker price. Sometimes they say something like 'I'm not willing to give you a fair deal for this,' but by putting all sorts of different sums from their side on the table and asking whether that would work you can eventually find out what they're actually willing to pay - takes some work, and I'm assuming Catherine does have some money, of course, although this is often also a problem with ailing civs. But if you have a marble for spare anyway, you might as well take what's on offer.

 

[mad-bax]

Look at how the wall goes around Argos on my screenshot, and behind Argos on Alans

Cathy has over a hundred and fifty gold and making 20gpt. I don't know what the proper worth of marble is in this trade.

According to the various advisors, all the civs on our continent are useless and we need to find the other civs overseas. I don't know how we will launch quickly without getting across the ocean.

In any case, I think we can safely keep the remaining two Greek cities. We have some happy builds going on, and the gold will help too.

Good luck Alan.

 

[Optional]

lurker's comment: If a civ isn't willing to pay the full price of 240 gold, I think it's 209 they're still willing to pay. 240 can become 177 + 2gpt if they haven't got enough cash, so maybe try 147 + 2gpt (since you say Catherine only has 150 upfront)? If they're very unhappy with you they're not even willing to pay that, but I don't think Catherine should be that upset about you yet.
A full price offer within Catherine's means would come out at 146 + 3gpt, that's the max you can get here, that would always be the first thing to try, if you haven't yet.

Yes, it's not a good map for a quick launch. With about any other map type you'll meet further lying civs earlier and get in a better trading position sooner.

By the way, looking at the graphics in the screenshots, that's not a patched version of the game yet. You would see the graphic changes if it was, especially roads look very different (I'm assuming the changes would be for vanilla as well, but I'm not sure).

 

[AlanH]

Look at how the wall goes around Argos on my screenshot, and behind Argos on Alans

Is that just because the wall didn't get redrawn while you had the map open? If you reload the save, does it change to match my screenie?

Cathy has over a hundred and fifty gold and making 20gpt. I don't know what the proper worth of marble is in this trade.

I've just opened the diplo screen with Kate. Her opening offer for marble is 16 gold and 3 horses. A counter offer of marble plus open borders for 119 gold plus 3 gpt works. Dunno why you weren't able to get a deal.

According to the various advisors, all the civs on our continent are useless and we need to find the other civs overseas. I don't know how we will launch quickly without getting across the ocean.

I'm sure you are right.

In any case, I think we can safely keep the remaining two Greek cities. We have some happy builds going on, and the gold will help too.

Good luck Alan.

I'll play a little later.

Catherine has just one town, right?

Two - Moscow and St Pete.

that's not a patched version of the game yet

It certainly is. The save is version 1.0.3.18, and that's what my version number shows on the main menu. I am running low level DX9 graphics as I am on a virtualisation platform. Maybe you are not used to such poverty-stricken images

 

[AlanH]

It looks as if Firaxis have fixed the diplo bug in this patch. You need to replace one file in your Civ5 software. The details are posted here.

We should probably all do it since the hangs and crashes that have been reported look like show stoppers.

 

[mad-bax]

OK - I've installed the diplo bug patch. Not tested it though.

 

[TedJackson]

Sorry I've been absent for so long but RL is just crazy at the moment. Better mark me as skipped for the next week and I'll see how things stand then.


Ted

 

[a space oddity]

Thanks for the heads up, guys. Patched and seems to be working OK, the save loads.

@Ted: noted, I hope things get better for you soon.

 

[AlanH]

Sorry from me as well. My week has got even further away from me that I expected. The issues with the patch, and trying to fix the Civ5 game submission system have taken a lot of time, and are still not resolved. I hope my turns will happen this weekend, so if anyone has any inspiration on the best way forward, please let me know.

 

[a space oddity]

Do you need a skip Alan?

 

[AlanH]

Sorry, all. Playing this evening.

 

[AlanH]

Pre-flight:

Turn 120: 125 AD
Units:
1 Trireme 7/10. Not sure what it's been doing, but we seem to have busted most of the coastal fog, and I imagine he's beaten up a barb camp. I'll head him back to MBR for R&R.
4 Swords. 2 are out of moves, in or near Argos (one at 1/10). One is 9/10 with 1 move left, outside Argos. The other is 8/10 healing between Moscow and AT.
2 Spears and a Pike are garrisons in our home-grown cities.
1 Chariot Archer north of Argos, out of moves
3 Catapults. One south of AT and heading north I guess. One outside Argos. One at 2/10 healing near Moscow/AT
3 Archers. 2 near Argos, one garrison in AT.
4 Workers farming and chopping
1 Great General outside Argos.

Cities:
MBR: 10 citizens. Colossus next turn. Optimise for 20 hammers to complete.

SS: 6 citizens. Colosseum in 6 turns.

TK: 5 citizens. Circus in 9 turns.

AT: Puppet. 3 citizens. Circus in 15 turns.

LS: Puppet. 1 citizen. Colosseum in 22 turns.

Argos: Burning

We get Education in 10 turns. We have 6 sad faces. We have Gold, Marble, Pearls, Silver and Whales.

Deal available with Cathy for our spare Marble: 119 gold +3 gpt if we throw in Open Borders. I do the deal.
Napoleon and Cathy are not willing to trade luxuries to us at any price.

We now have 172 + 10 gpt.

Hit Next Turn.

IBT:
A couple of city states come under attack.
Monaco no longer needs our help.
Colossus completed in MBR. We now have 196 gold and 23 gpt.

Turn 121: 150 AD
Moved ranged units towards Sparta. Left Swords to heal.
Vienna and Dublin want help against barbs.
We need a new construction project in MBR. Can't build National College or National Epic until Argos dies. Could build Great Library in 7 turns. We seem to be able to build units that need iron, even though our resources list indicates we have 7 iron and have used it all! I decide on Great Library, as we are, after all, trying for a Science victory. We get a free library, a free tech, and +3 science if we make it.

IBT:
We lose an archer to a Greek Sword. 0 : 1

Turn 122: 175 AD
Archer and Chariot Archer bombard Sword to 1HP. Sword finishes the job, but loses 5 HP. 1 : 1
There are two more Greek Swords visible in Sparta.

IBT:
We lose our 5/10 Sword to two Greek Swords. 1 : 2
Worker completes farm near TK.
Argos is gone.
We are down to 3 sad faces.

Turn 123: 200 AD
Worker starts road towards AT.
Trireme continues towards MBR
Cat, CA and Archer bomb Greek Sword to death. 2 : 2
Our Sword kills the second Sword, loses on HP. 3 : 2
A Russian Pike appears west of Moscow.

IBT:
Alex offers peace, no incentives. I decline.
We lose a Sword to Greek Sword, and a Greek Companion Cav redlines a cat. 3 : 3

Turn 124: 225 AD
AT+Archer+redlined Cat kill Companion Cav. 4 : 3
CA redlines Sword

IBT:
Worlds best fed people: Nappy is 4th at 3.2. Cathy is 6th at 2. We are 7th at 0.6. Alex is 8th at -0.5

Turn 125: 250 AD
CA and archer kill Greek Sword outside Sparta. 5 : 3
Still waiting for the rest of our forces to get to full strength.

IBT:
Greek Sword appears from Sparta and kills our archer. 5 : 4
Space Station completes Colosseum. We are down to 2 sad faces. TK finishes a Circus next turn

Turn 126: 275 AD
CA and Cat bomb Greek Sword. Our Sword finishes him. 6 : 4
Start a Sword in SS, given the losses we have suffered, and buy an Archer in TK.

IBT:
Sparta bombs our Sword -2 HP takes him to 6/10. He gets a promotion.
TK completes Circus. We are at zero sad faces
Russia and France sign a Research Agreement.

Turn 127: 300 AD
Promoted Sword: I go for Drill 1 rather than instant heal, and withdraw him out of range of Sparta to heal.
Moved purchased Archer towards AT.
Next production in TK: Colosseum (16 turns)

IBT:
Worker emerges from Sparta.

Turn 128: 325 AD
Captured it with CA. Let's hope it wasn't a decoy.
Moved units towards Sparta again

IBT:
Greek Pike kills CA, recaptures Worker. It was a decoy 6 : 5
Great Library completed

Turn 129: 350 AD
We get a free tech. Compass looks the best bet, as with the Education next turn, we can then research Astronomy and get off this island.MBR starts National College (10 turns)
Cats move in on Sparta

IBT:
We learn Education
Sparta bombs a Cat. 1 HP.
A new Great General is born in MBR.
France is now protecting Venice, Hanoi and Cape Town.
A new Citizen in MBR, so we are back to 1 sad face.

Turn 130: 375 AD
Cats bomb Sparta. About 40% damage.
Archer steals worker.
Great General heads for the front.
Start Astronomy 18 turns

End of Action Summary:

A poor turn set. Didn't take out Sparta as I hoped, though it looks as if that shouldn't take too long now.

I'm not sure what I should have done to get a better kill ratio. Maybe held back until all the units were healed? But that would have given Alex more time to build up his defences.

There's a worker near MBR waiting for orders. A banana plantation near SS, perhaps?
Not sure what to do with the Trireme. It won't upgrade to a Frigate until we have Navigation. It can be used for local coastal defence against barb galleys or water-borne Greeks, I guess, though we haven't seen any for a long time.

Best of luck clearing up my mess!

Here's the Greek front, and the save ...

 

[a space oddity]

Well done on the science front! And well done losing all the sad faces! So all in all, I'd say:

Roster:
a space oddity
mad-bax
TedJackson
AlanH
leif erikson <-- UP
ainwood