Speculating on (Historical) Civ Progression

[Bonyduck Campersang]

It would be cool if by interacting enough with an IP you could then have the option to progress to their successor civ in the next era. For example Egypt buying mercenaries from, or annexing Koumbi Saleh (Soninke) could unlock Songhai. That would certainly make more sense than “well, they’re both African.”

PS: Did someone else say this before? I can’t remember.

Most probably city-states and other IPs will be age-locked. Koumbi Saleh, for example, was shown in the showcase while Ed Beach was talking about how new city-states will be unlocked among other things when you advance into a new Age. So the Songhai would be coexisting with the Koumbi Saleh city-state

 

[j51]

Right. I just thought they were antiquity for some reason. Even better would be if Songhai (Gao) could be an antiquity IP you could interact with to get the Songhai civ in the exploration age.

 

[untitledjuan]

“Modern post- colonial” nations, such as Canada, Colombia and Australia, just to mention some “modern post-colonial” nations that appeared in Civ6, could easily have lots of paths to be formed.

Just as an example, you could have all this paths to get to a Colombia/Gran Colombia civ

Rome>Castile/Spain>Colombia
Greece>Castile/Spain>Colombia
Goths/Visigoths>Castile/Spain>Colombia
Goths/Visigoths>HRE>Colombia (due to Klein-Venedig)
Celtiberians/Celts>Castile/Spain>Colombia
Carthage/Phoenicia>Castile/Spain>Colombia

I don’t think it would be appropriate to have Native nations switching into Argentina or Colombia. Maybe the Aztec>Mexico and Inca>Peru ones could work, but something like Mapuche>Argentina or Muisca>Colombia would be a bit weird. (Though I think it would be awesome to have the Muisca in Civ7)

The Natives were generally against the independence of New Granada/Colombia and Argentina. They fought on the side of the Spanish against Simón Bolívar, for instance. The governments of Colombia and Argentina later continued attacking the Natives and placing them on religious boarding schools to eliminate their culture. At least in Colombia, the 1 million remaining Natives, out of a 50 million country, generally don’t identify with Colombia much.

While Nahua and Quechua peoples are quite numerous in both Mexico and Peru and those countries “accepted” their Native populations much earlier than the other post-colonial nations. They became part of their historical narrative much earlier.

That said, Mexico would have all the previously mentioned paths that Colombia could have, plus the Aztec.

Canada could also be formed by all the paths that would take you to Exploration Era Normandy, Francia/Medieval France or Medieval England.

Moreover, it would be awesome to have a Castile Exploration Era civ, focused on exploration, conquest and religion, and a Spain Modern Era civ, focused on culture and tourism. After all, Spain began to exist as a unified kingdom after the Nueva Planta Decrees of 1714, when the Bourbons began ruling. Before that, and during the Habsburg era, it worked as a series of personal unions with separate Cortes (akin to Parliaments), with Castile being the most prominent.

 

[Krikkit1]

“Modern post- colonial” nations, such as Canada, Colombia and Australia, just to mention some “modern post-colonial” nations that appeared in Civ6, could easily have lots of paths to be formed.

Just as an example, you could have all this paths to get to a Colombia/Gran Colombia civ

Rome>Castile/Spain>Colombia
Greece>Castile/Spain>Colombia
Goths/Visigoths>Castile/Spain>Colombia
Goths/Visigoths>HRE>Colombia (due to Klein-Venedig)
Celtiberians/Celts>Castile/Spain>Colombia
Carthage/Phoenicia>Castile/Spain>Colombia

I don’t think it would be appropriate to have Native nations switching into Argentina or Colombia. Maybe the Aztec>Mexico and Inca>Peru ones could work, but something like Mapuche>Argentina or Muisca>Colombia would be a bit weird. (Though I think it would be awesome to have the Muisca in Civ7)

The Natives were generally against the independence of New Granada/Colombia and Argentina. They fought on the side of the Spanish against Simón Bolívar, for instance. The governments of Colombia and Argentina later continued attacking the Natives and placing them on religious boarding schools to eliminate their culture. At least in Colombia, the 1 million remaining Natives, out of a 50 million country, generally don’t identify with Colombia much.

While Nahua and Quechua peoples are quite numerous in both Mexico and Peru and those countries “accepted” their Native populations much earlier than the other post-colonial nations. They became part of their historical narrative much earlier.

That said, Mexico would have all the previously mentioned paths that Colombia could have, plus the Aztec.

Canada could also be formed by all the paths that would take you to Exploration Era Normandy, Francia/Medieval France or Medieval England.

Moreover, it would be awesome to have a Castile Exploration Era civ, focused on exploration, conquest and religion, and a Spain Modern Era civ, focused on culture and tourism. After all, Spain began to exist as a unified kingdom after the Nueva Planta Decrees of 1714, when the Bourbons began ruling. Before that, and during the Habsburg era, it worked as a series of personal unions with separate Cortes (akin to Parliaments), with Castile being the most prominent.

I think those post colonial civs would have their “historical” unlocks from the european originator civs (Norman, Castille, etc). But they should probably have “regional” unlocks from the Native civs (who should “historically” unlock other Age3 Native civs…which seems much more possible given the earlier start to the Third Age seen with Mughals)

 

[untitledjuan]

I'm not sure about Taíno identity in the Caribbean, but I'm very doubtful there are enough records of the language to revive it.

They could also use other Arawakan languages. I believe the Wayuu language is the closest living relative of the Taíno language. Wayuu has around 400,000 speakers today. It would still not be perfect to use that language to represent the Taíno, but it still would allow to have Agüeybana or other Taíno leader in the game with voiced lines.

 

[untitledjuan]

They’ve already proven they’re including civs they prob otherwise wouldn’t to complete lines (chola, buganda). Peru/Bolivia/Ecuador should be in the game modern era, surely. Real question is do they include the Nazca or something similar (Muisca could be finagled into antiquity, i think, but they don’t feel the most apt evolution into the inca) in the earlier era

The oldest archeological records found related to the Muisca are from around 800AD. I guess they would fall on the Exploration Era of Civ7, not much in the Ancient Era. They migrated into central Colombia from the Chibchan heartland around modern-day Costa Rica around 800AD. I would love to see the Muisca in Civ7, but it’s a bit hard to find a suitable Ancient Era predecessor and Modern Era successor that’s popular enough to be included.

We don’t exactly know who were the people who lived in Muisca territory before they migrated there. One could make the case that an earlier Chibchan group from Central America could be the predecessor of the Muisca, perhaps the Kuna, the Tairona or the Maleku from Costa Rica. However, they might not be as popular as other options.

Regarding a successor for the Muisca, it gets even more complicated. Colombia/Gran Colombia would be a bit problematic, due to the Natives actively fighting against Simón Bolívar and against the independence of Colombia, as well as the active policy of extermination that Colombia had against the Natives throughout the 19th and early 20th century. Again, it might not be a popular choice or well known group, but the Kogi people could work as a Modern Era successor to the Muisca. They are a Native Chibchan group that remained practically independent until the 19th century and still exists to the present day.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I don’t think it would be appropriate to have Native nations switching into Argentina or Colombia. Maybe the Aztec>Mexico and Inca>Peru ones could work, but something like Mapuche>Argentina or Muisca>Colombia would be a bit weird. (Though I think it would be awesome to have the Muisca in Civ7)

The Natives were generally against the independence of New Granada/Colombia and Argentina. They fought on the side of the Spanish against Simón Bolívar, for instance. The governments of Colombia and Argentina later continued attacking the Natives and placing them on religious boarding schools to eliminate their culture. At least in Colombia, the 1 million remaining Natives, out of a 50 million country, generally don’t identify with Colombia much.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Musica would go into Gran Colombia, just off of geography anyways, as well as Spain.

Argentina, I agree is different, and would work better if it comes from various European civs such as Spain, or an Exploration Italian civ etc.

 

[Xandinho]

I highly doubt they would go to Gran Colombia again (this worked for the Civ6 model, which was much more of a Simon Bolivar civilization than anything, just like Macedon and Alexander). I think they would go to modern Colombia, more focused on culture and commodity trade.

 

[j51]

I think they’ll just have Bolivar be a civ-less leader.

 

[Zaarin]

commodity trade

Colombian coffee producers have been knocking it out of the park the last few years.

 

[untitledjuan]

I highly doubt they would go to Gran Colombia again (this worked for the Civ6 model, which was much more of a Simon Bolivar civilization than anything, just like Macedon and Alexander). I think they would go to modern Colombia, more focused on culture and commodity trade.

We also have to consider that Gran Colombia was just a historiographical name, the name of the nation ruled by Simón Bolívar was just “Republic of Colombia”, which still is the official name of Colombia. Historians have used the term “Gran Colombia” to refer to the historical period of Colombia when it was way bigger than it is now. It can be argued that it didn’t collapsed, there are still some laws from the “Gran Colombia” period that are still being used in “contemporary Colombia”, it just continued to the present but with much less territory.

With that in mind, Colombia could be Modern Era Civ in Civ7 that can be formed by an Exploration Era Castile/Spain. Though I’d make it less focused on the military and more focused on agriculture and/or culture. 19th and 20th century writers and artists from Colombia were quite influential in Latin America and a big chunk of Hispanic American (and to some extent even European Spanish) popular culture is quite influenced by both Mexico and Colombia in the present day.

 

[Rac]

Just posting this here, it's from the Dev Diary #1
Either they changed the Egypt > Songhai progression (unlikely) or the the Abbasid > Buganda is a thing too

PS.: Nice Abbasid icon

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

Just posting this here, it's from the Dev Diary #1
Either they changed the Egypt > Songhai progression (unlikely) or the the Abbasid > Buganda is a thing too
View attachment 703238
PS.: Nice Abbasid icon

Why oh why is Buganda a choice unlocked by the Abbasids? What are they even trying to do here?

 

[Prester John 2]

Why oh why is Buganda a choice unlocked by the Abbasids? What are they even trying to do here?

Yes, I'm wondering too. They're not in the Middle East, nor Muslims. Sansibar might have made sense due to trade connections to Oman. But Buganda. Maybe the Abbasids unlocked them because they settled a town next to the natural wonder Lake Victoria.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

Maybe the Abbasids unlocked them because they settled a town next to the natural wonder Lake Victoria.

No, it says they were unlocked by civ choice

 

[Mr Jon of Cheam]

It could be subject to change. They've already changed that image from Songhai to Abbasids for Egypt, after all. I'll guess we'll find out soon enough!

 

[Prester John 2]

Maybe they don't want to spoiler all the modern age civs just yet.

 

[Siptah]

Yeah, I wouldn't take it for real. Potentially, they simply switched out Songhai for Abbasids and haven't adjusted the third age civ, as they don't want to reveal Ottomans yet.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Everybody froths about the Buganda choice, but nobody comments on the Other Choice just below it:

"Other Modern Age Civs"

Which to me, like the choices in Exploration Age, implies that you have a raft of other potential choices based on conditions like "have 3 horse resources" or virtually anything else you can think of.

I suspect some of them will be rare conditions, and none will be guaranteed to be available in every game, making Buganda or whoever occupies that slot by Release Date the Common choice, but from what I see so far it is by no means likely to be the only choice available going into the Modern Age.

 

[queenpea]

Maybe they don't want to spoiler all the modern age civs just yet.

Yes, I think this is the reason. The change from Egypt > Songhai to Egypt > Abbasids has already calmed by nerves. Hopefully further reveals will make it all fall into place.

Everybody froths about the Buganda choice, but nobody comments on the Other Choice just below it:

"Other Modern Age Civs"

Which to me, like the choices in Exploration Age, implies that you have a raft of other potential choices based on conditions like "have 3 horse resources" or virtually anything else you can think of.

I suspect some of them will be rare conditions, and none will be guaranteed to be available in every game, making Buganda or whoever occupies that slot by Release Date the Common choice, but from what I see so far it is by no means likely to be the only choice available going into the Modern Age.

I understand what you're saying, and I do understand the importance of patience, but I think it is also fair to just allow people to react to the information that is being shown to them.

I agree that it's likely that there will be better, less divisive switches revealed in the future, but it's ok to react negatively to something that is on the table and is objectionable for whatever reason.