*Spoiler1* Gotm23-Arabs Full World Map+All contacts+Middle Age

[Dianthus]

@Zwingli
That's interesting about the Great Library. I assumed that it would only work for the AI's you were at peace with!

@rabies
I think you're right about Zwingli, I've been around just long enough to remember his 2CC conquest win, so I know he's particularly adept at these strange alternative play styles .

 

[LKendter]

Originally posted by Sir Bugsy
1.29f Conquest
I ended up moving my settler one NE to grab both food sources and while I didn't get the city production that some of the experts did, I thought it turned out pretty good. 7 cities IIRC. I still am figuring out how to get a 4-turn settler factory. The best I did in this game was 5 turn.

The 4-turn factory did exist. I moved the settler to pick the spot I am showed above.
Two turns at size 5 it gains 12 shields.
It grows and auto-selects tile A.
Total shields are now 14.
I mm it and switch to tile B.
Two turns at size 6 it gains 14 shields for a total of 28 shields.
It grows, picks title A and has the needed 30 shields.

It was one the hardest to spot settler factories of the GOTM series.

 

[Txurce]

Lkendter, your illustrated example is very useful. I built a 4-turn factory thst worked with a size-four city, but had to mine the hill to do so. This took longer than it would have to just let the city grow one more size before starting settler production.

 

[Mark Cutt]

I settled SE after my worker discovered the wool.
Makkah quickly became a 5-turn settler factory. The second city (S-S-SW) was a worker-settler factory (no granary), the third (SE-SE-SE-SE) a worker factory and the 4th (N-N-N) a warrior factory.
I built my cities at 4 and 7 tiles distance from the capital.

My initial building sequence was scout, granary, warrior, settler, settler.....

I start researching Mysticism (discovered in 3000bc), then Polytheism(1830bc) and eventually Monarchy(1150bc). I got Masonry and Warrior Code from the only 2 goody huts I found and all the other AA techs by trading. I entered MA in 1050BC.

With two scouts I quickly met all the other civs but Egypt.
3850bc: Carthage
3650bc: Spain
3550bc: Persia
3350bc: France
3150bc: India
2850bc: Zulu
2750bc: Ottoman
2590bc: Rome
1830bc: Egypt

Barbs were not a problem I had only two visits by warriors. I did not see any horseman.

At the end of the QSC period I had:
Cities: 13
Citizens: 28
Settlers:1
Workers:8
Slaves:1
Warriors:11
Horsemen:2
Barracks:4
Granary:1
Temple:1
All AA techs but Republic
Gold:1115
Contacts:9
Score:258

 

[AlanH]

Interesting .... I decided to play the Predator start this time around simply in the hope of having a faster game either by an early defeat or through the faster pace. Checking my progress relative to other posts here so far it looks like this was a reasonable plan.

Eight Predator reports include Medieval Age dates and they range from 1275 BC (Yndy) to 875 BC (SirPleb). Most were around 1000 BC.

Eleven Open reports give MA dates ranging from 875 BC (acivguy) to 70 BC (quertysoft), with most of them bunching around 700 - 500 BC.

There are other reports with no date, or an approximate range, so apologies if I've missed any exceptions.

That makes the Predator game tech pace about 10% faster to this point. I'm not a Predator-class player by any stretch and I've only played one complete Open GOTM, but at 950 BC my date was around par for the Predator course and faster than any Open date, so the difference doesn't seem to be related to player quality.

But moving on from my original limited playing time objective it's interesting to speculate what effect this might have on eventual Jason score. Most victories are ultimately timed relative to the arrival of a specific tech - Chivalry, Military Tradition, Motorised Transport, Fission for the UN. Even Culture victory dates are driven by the availability of techs to build cultural improvements.

Sure, you also need to develop your civ to exploit the options presented by the techs, and this is where the great players excel, but you can't achieve a Knight-based conquest until at least the turn when Chivalry arrives, however well you manage the rest of your empire.

Of course, it's more complex than this - victory may be achieved in several waves. But each major surge is likely to be related to a specific tech, and there's usually a point when the die is actually cast and the player becomes the dominant force on the map. After that it's down to effective logistics to complete the task as fast as possible.

Cracker's original announcement of the Predator class said the incentive to play it is bragging rights and an extra challenge, and I'll certainly vouch for the latter . But if you can survive the extra starting bonuses of the AI to reach a victory, if this 10% timescale benefit results in 10% earlier victory then it seems to me there may be a real score benefit for Open players who move to Predator.

If I live long enough to post in the other Spoilers I'll update this conjecture. If people post enough information it would be interesting to plot the relationship between the "critical tech date" that drives each player's victory, the victory date, and the player class.

 

[a space oddity]

Very interesting observation, AlanH. This is of course true, if you manage to survive the drawbacks, you get to use the benefits. A great incentive too, to play the higher levels. As many people have noticed before. The AI is the same on all the levels. If you manage to survive the start the game plays more or less the same, but you have to get yourself out of a smaller or bigger hole. Have you noticed how Cracker lures us out of our comfort zone to enjoy the game even more?

 

[Txurce]

Alan, thanks for quantifying what seemed to be the case. By the way, you've already survived the AI advantage; if you've hit the Middle Ages, you are now in a basic Monarch-level game, where the AI's fast start has been leveled by the application of human brainpower.

So congratulations!

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by a space oddity
The AI is the same on all the levels. If you manage to survive the start the game plays more or less the same, but you have to get yourself out of a smaller or bigger hole.

AND

Originally posted by Txurce
you are now in a basic Monarch-level game, where the AI's fast start has been leveled by the application of human brainpower

Surely the AI tech pace is faster on Predator, and I thought their build rates were higher as well. Doesn't Cracker publish different build cost ratios for each level? If so the game *does* remain more challenging beyond the start bonuses. However, Cracker's earlier induction into the delights of Deity play, plus all the great lessons learnt around here, has helped me to exorcise the deity paranoia thing, so that's less of a nightmare now.

Come to think of it, the build rate effect will have an extra bonus effect in a Predator domination game like this one, as you get to inherit more developed land and wonders earlier when you do go on the acquisition trail.

Have you noticed how Cracker lures us out of our comfort zone to enjoy the game even more?

Oh, yes !!!

 

[a space oddity]

Yes, the AI has discounts on trade and build rates. What I meant was the decisions and just plain mistakes the AI will make are the same on all levels. To name a few: wide city spacing, starting wonders that are without any chance of completing, settlers from size 2 cities etc, etc.

 

[cracker]

You are all experiencing phases of an epiphany of sorts.

If you will recall there were some grumblings and grousings of sorts when we introduced the Predator class of play, and comments like this below were not uncommon:

However, I wonder how many will jump on predator class. I won't play a more difficult game without getting a bonus for it.

Playing this would simply lower my score in the competition.

The risk of playing at a higher difficulty is that you can get killed if you do not pay attention but the benefits are almost too numerous to list. The game moves along more quickly and the opponents in the game do more interesting things that you can gain enjoyment from. Essentially, if you focus on the basic opening skills enough to get past the opening challenges then you get to play fun parts of the game that just are not present in the difficulties at regent and below.

FYI, my favorite games to play are at Emperor Level (AI Cost Factor) and with significant adjustments to the AI unit bonuses and AI build priorities to give them more competent management priorities.

We do not want to encourage players to play up at predator too early because this may frustrate them. The Predator game is definately not easier even though high level players will make it seem so.

It would be good to here specific comments from players how have made the fresh transition up to Predator from Open and to hear how they feel the specifics of the opening play become even more important.

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by cracker
If you will recall there were some grumblings and grousings of sorts when we introduced the Predator class of play, and comments like this below were not uncommon:

My point exactly. I think there are real score rewards at Predator level as well as increased enjoyment.

FYI, my favorite games to play are at Emperor Level (AI Cost Factor) and with significant adjustments to the AI unit bonuses and AI build priorities to give them more competent management priorities.

Which is presumably what we are experiencing and enjoying right now in the Predator-level game #23?

We do not want to encourage players to play up at predator too early because this may frustrate them. The Predator game is definately not easier even though high level players will make it seem so.

It would be good to here specific comments from players how have made the fresh transition up to Predator from Open and to hear how they feel the specifics of the opening play become even more important.

Well, I for one am having fun. I got off to a slower start than anyone else here, I think, except the AW fans. [Incidentally, Dianthus, if you had played Predator level it would have counted as Emperor, letting you off the Monarch-AW pledge. Another incentive to Go Predator ]

I had only half a dozen cities at 1000 BC, and a pathetic army and workforce. I want to replay the opening phase again if I get the time, to see how I *should* have done it. I don't think the Predator settings were responsible for this, it was all my own doing. I saw fewer goodie huts, but that just meant I had to work harder at trading. I had expected to become a punch bag for every civ, but they only demanded a couple of techs, and otherwise never threatened me. Ottomans rapid expansion meant I had to develop a distant source of horses, and those took longer than I would have liked to hook up. But that could have happened in Open as well, and I think it did to some other players.

I though my poor start might backfire on me after this phase. However, it seems not to have been the end of the world. There are ways and means of getting the map back into shape, and I think this recovery experience is improving my middle game no end, but that's Spoiler #2 material

 

[Txurce]

a space oddity, I think the AI bonuses in GOTM23 Predator class comprise of additonal units at the start, and a discount on unit upkeep. The other discounts are the standard monarch level ones. Since the unit upkeep discount is relatively inconsequential, my sense is that if a player sets up decently despite the fast AI start, the player is then engaged in only a slighly more difficult monarch game.

With the scoring advantage of an accelerated tech pace.

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by Txurce
a space oddity, I think the AI bonuses in GOTM23 Predator class comprise of additonal units at the start, and a discount on unit upkeep. The other discounts are the standard monarch level ones. Since the unit upkeep discount is relatively inconsequential, my sense is that if a player sets up decently despite the fast AI start, the player is then engaged in only a slighly more difficult monarch game.

With the scoring advantage of an accelerated tech pace.

I went back to the game definition page, and you're right. I think the current Tournament game is the one I recalled where the production discounts vary.

- AI starting unit bonus levels: increased to Deity level

- AI Free unit support: increased to Deity Level

- The production costs of some AI units have been selectively altered.

That last item is the (possibly big) unknown joker in the pack.

 

[Dianthus]

Originally posted by AlanH
[Incidentally, Dianthus, if you had played Predator level it would have counted as Emperor, letting you off the Monarch-AW pledge. Another incentive to Go Predator ]

Gah, I wish you had told me that before I started playing! Never mind, at least the short GOTM23 game gave me time to play the Medal 5-6 game .

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by AlanH

I went back to the game definition page, and you're right. I think the current Tournament game is the one I recalled where the production discounts vary.

However, having slept on it, if the only AI extras in Predator mode were the starting bonuses plus a bit of maintenance and building cost assistance, why was the tech pace 10% faster during the ancient era?

 

[Txurce]

Alan, if you mean why do the Predator AI civs seem to research faster in the ancient era, I would say that it's because they expand more quickly with the extra settler, the extra units create earlier contact and increased trade, and the gold they save on upkeep means something that early in the game.

 

[Furius]

Conquest Difficulty

4000BC- Founded Mecca
- Began work on granery (disbanded tresure chests) complete in 10
- Began research of alphabet, science at 90%, complete alphabet in 34 turns
3900BC- Scout discovered small sea to be known as Small Sea
3800BC- Road completed on hill, Alphabet in 24 turns!
3750BC-
3700BC- Other scout discovers small sea to the north it shall be known as the North Sea
3650BC- Scout catches glimpse of a border near the North Sea
3600BC- The border belongs to the Persians! Jerxes refuses to trade techs
3550BC- Persepolis is already size 2, begin checking for another city
3500BC- Mecca completes granery, begin work on Temple (6 turns), Mecca now size 2, Mecca's borders expand
Skraelings teach us wheel
Spy brown border in south, hope it isn't Russia
3450BC- Scout approaches border
3400BC- Contact Carthage, trade The Wheel for Masonry & 10g
- Trade Jerxes The Wheel for Bronze Working
- Trade Hannibal Pottery and Bronze Working for Alphabet
- Begin researchin writing (36 turns)
3350BC- Skraelings teach us Mysticism
- Sight Aqua border
3300BC- Contact the unfortunatly backward Spain
3250BC- Complete Temple in Mecca Begin work on Spearman (4 turns)
3200BC-
3150BC- Raise research to 100% (Writing in 27 turns! -3g per turn)
3100BC- Trade Jerxes Alphabet for Warrior Code
3050BC- Mecca produces Spearman, change production to Settler (5 turns) Mecca reaches size 3!
3000BC- join wool to Mecca
- Catch sight of Dark blue border north of Spainland
2950BC- Tacitus History of the World, Wealthiest are Arabs!
- Encounter sea in center of map, name it Central Sea
2900BC- Contact techless France
- France contacts me about troops (a scout) in her territory
-Mecca becomes size 4!
2850BC- I become aware of Parsagadae on the North Sea
- I discover through diplomacy that Carthage also has two cities!
2800BC- Mecca builds Settler change production to walls (4 turns)
-Discover actual Ocean to the North! Name it Sea of the Boundless Blue
2710BC-
2670BC-
2630BC-Complete walls in Mecca, Begin work on settler (5 turns)
- Am informed that treasury is down to 12g turn research down to 90% (Writing 13 turns, -5g per turn)
2590BC- Am not perturbed by only 8g in treasury
2550BC-Treasury=4g!
-Found Medina-on-the-North-Sea begin production of Temple (30 turns)
2510BC- Turn research down to 80% (writing 7 turns 0g per turn)
2470BC- Mecca builds Settler, change production to wealth
- Contact Shaka who is, as always, behind in the tech department
2430BC-
2390BC- Joan contacts me about scary military units (a scout) in her territory
2350BC- I notice a civ in the far west while slogging through jungle
2310BC- It turns out to be part of Zululand
-Mecca's borders expand
2290BC-
2270BC-
2230BC- Place unprotected Settler beside Barbarian camp. Whack head.
-Settler destroyed :<
-Writing discovered, Begin research of Literature (27 turns)
2190BC- Trade Jerxes contact with France and Zulu for Ottomans and 20g
-Trade more communications (To civs that are 5 bloody squares apart and have no contact!) and go from 3g to 162g
-Put research up to 100% (literature 21 turns, -2g per turn)
-Change production in Mecca to spearman (2 turns)
2150BC-
2110BC-
2070BC- Trade Jerxes Writing for Iron Working and 2g
-Mecca produces Spearman, change production to Settler (4 turns)
2030BC- Persian warrior told to leave my territory
1990BC- The warrior leaves, YAY!
-Mecca reaches size 5!
-Gibbon says I'm 5th most powerful in the world
1950BC- Mecca produces Settler, change production to Pyramids (50 turns)
1910BC- The French are building the Oracle!
1870BC- Scout destroyed by Barbarian
1830BC- Road connects Medina-on-the-North-Sea with Mecca
1790BC-
1750BC- Spearman destroyed. He had a settler with him.
1725BC- Trade Ottomans Iron Working for Contact with Romans (Why?)
-Trade Rome Masonry for 30g
-Change production in Mecca to Settler (1 turn)
1700BC- Produce Settler in Mecca, change production to Spearman (3 turns)
1675BC- Pictish Warrior appears at border!
1650BC-
1625BC- Mecca produces Spearman change production to Barracks
-Settler & Spearman head east
1600BC- Jerxies requests audience, offers Contact with Egyptians for 40g
-Jerxies trades Horseback Riding for 100g
1575BC- Trade Carthage Contact with Rome for Contact with Egypt & 1g
-Trade France Horseback Riding for 50g
-Trade Egypt Alphabet for 50g
-Trade Egypt Horseback Riding for 20g
-Pictish Warrior Appears near Mecca!
1550BC- Medina-on-the-North-Sea produces Temple change production to Wealth (1 turn)
-Locate Egyptian border
1525BC- Another Pictish Warrior appears near Mecca's borders
-Rome is building Pyramids
-Ottomans are building Oracle
1500BC- Discover Literature! Change production to Map Making (22 turns)
-Mecca completes Barracks change production to Great Library (40 turns)
-Pictish Warrior enters my territory!
1475BC- Change production in Medina-on-the-North-Sea to Spearman
- Found Damascus at the end of a cove to the east begin production of Spearman
-Egypt asks me to remove a scout from her territory
-The Pictish warrior is deep within my territory now
1450BC- Medina-on-the-North-Sea's borders expand
-Pictish Warrior moves away from Mecca!
1425BC-
1400BC- Change production in Medina-on-the-North-Sea to Wealth (1 turn)
-Jerxes is building Oracle
1375BC- Mecca riots!
-Set Science at 80% (MM 15 turns) & Luxuries at 20% (-3g per turn)
-Skraelings give me a warrior
- Pictish Warrior enters Meccan territory
1350BC- Order retored in Mecca
Zulu offer Maths for Literature. Maths isn't my favourite subject...
1325BC- Change production in Medina-on-the-North-Sea to Settler (30 turns)
-Carthage asks for Literature-- Or else, I give him Literature
1300BC- Zulu begin work on GL
-French begin work on GL
1275BC- Pictish Warrior retreats
1250BC-
1225BC-
1200BC- Turn research down to 40% (MM 1 turns, +3g per turn)
1175BC- Begin research of Code of Laws (34 turns)
-Turn research up to 80% (CoL 17 turns, -4g per turn)
-Mecca reaches size 7
1150BC- Ottomans offer Territory map for territory map and 15g,
I offer him World map and 40g for Maths
-The Carthaginians begin work on the Great Library
1125BC- Barbarian horseman kills my scout! (How dare he?)
-Ottomas begin work on GL (Strange it took them so long)
1100BC- Damascus builds Spearman, change production to Settler (15 turns)
-French offer territory map for territory map & 1 gold. No deal.
1075BC- Egypt begins work on the Oracle.
1050BC-The Romans begin work on the GL
1025BC-Carthage moves a settler towards what I consider my territory
-French begin work on the pyramids
-The Oracle is completed in Paris
-Ottomans begin work on the GL (?!?!)
1000BC- Egypt begins work on the pyramids
-Persia begins work on GL
975BC- Carthaginian settler sited south of Mecca
950BC- Sabratha founded just south of Mecca!!!!!!!!!
925BC- Settler built in Medina-on-the-North-Sea, change production to spearman (20 turns)
-Barbarian horseman enters Sabratan territory
900BC-Barb Horseman marches to just south of Mecca (Sabrathat was defended by only a warrior)
875BC-Barb Horseman heads west!!
850BC- Code of Laws discovered begin work on Philosophy (6 turns)
Trade Romans Code of Laws for Philosophy, Territory map and 14g
-Begin work on Currency (26 turns)
825BC-
800BC-
775BC-
750BC- Found Baghdad at the bend on a river south of Damascus
-Baghdad begins work on temple (30 turns)
-Massive barb uprising near Baghdad! Military Advisor's helmet jumps!
730BC- Damascus produces settler, begins work on spearman (10 turns)
710BC- Barb Horseman moves back towards Mecca!
690BC- Barb Horseman pillages!
Skraeling Horseman attacks Damascus!
Barb Horseman moves in tom attack Mecca!
-Mecca produces GL!!!! begin work on Archer (2 turns)
-People let me expand my palace (I love this part!)
-Rome begin work on GW
-Persia begins work on Pyramids
-Persia begins work on Colossus
-Zululand begins work on Pyramids
-France begins work on Pyramids
-France begins work on GW
-Carthage begins work on Pyramids
-Ottomans begin work on Pyramids
670BC- Barb Horseman attacks Mecca and dies
-GL gives me Polytheism
-Gl gives me Currency, begin research of Construction (21 turns)
-Gl gives me Construction and I enter the Middle Ages!!!!!!

@ the point of entering the Middle Ages I was not doing well. My map was patchy and was not even aware of the Indians (who contacted me soon after). I was also incredibly weak. The situation is not looking up...

 

[Offa]

Originally posted by cracker
You are all experiencing phases of an epiphany of sorts.


The risk of playing at a higher difficulty is that you can get killed if you do not pay attention but the benefits are almost too numerous to list. The game moves along more quickly and the opponents in the game do more interesting things that you can gain enjoyment from.

It certainly seems that the Predator players have done better in this game. However, even though they are a self selected group, they are in general much better than the open players. It is therefore not possible to work the extent to which playing as a predator "helped". Perhaps the predator players would have conquered the world in 100ad using horse and a few Azaps. Maybe they could have gifted the AI tech to speed them up.

To work this out a properly a randomised controlled trial would be best, with players allocated to play either open or predator. Ideally a crossover study would be employed with predators changing to open and vv after the first test game.

 

[tao]

Originally posted by Offa
It certains seems that the Predator players have done better in this game. However, even though they are a self selected group, they are in general much better than the open players.

I did the last 3 games (5-4/5/6) on Predator and also have the impression, that it is "easier" because of the support from the AIs. And I don't think that my play improved suddenly.

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by Txurce
Alan, if you mean why do the Predator AI civs seem to research faster in the ancient era, I would say that it's because they expand more quickly with the extra settler, the extra units create earlier contact and increased trade, and the gold they save on upkeep means something that early in the game.

So the rate of tech progress will equalise by the end of the ancient age, other things being equal, and any Predator score bonus would be frozen at that time - if it's 8 to 10 turns at the end of the ancient age it will still be 8 to 10 turns at any stage later in the game, not 10% of the cumulative elapsed turns. Still a bonus, but not so compelling.

Hmmm. I'll try to think of a way to test this, depending on how much info is published by players from both classes. Unless Cracker cares to clarify whether there is, in fact, any designed difference between the ongoing build and tech rates for Open and Predator?