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Stability Bitmaps

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Linkman226, Nov 9, 2011.

  1. LackingGravitas

    LackingGravitas Chieftain

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    This should be Russias new one imo
    Also, is there a good reason why Ice is always "Foreign Area", for everyone?
    I remember I read here someone suggesting that useless desert tiles be stability neutral like peaks (or coast or ocean), that should apply to the ice and tundra tiles that can't be worked
    China and Tibet...I'm not really sure, but I don't think an area where people are setting themselves on fire in protest could really be considered light green for China. Maybe yellow?
     

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  2. Tomorrow's Dawn

    Tomorrow's Dawn Heroes Never Die

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    Tibet has already been removed from the Chinese stability map.
    Although you have to realize it was under 400 years of straight control between the Qing Dynasty to the present PRC.
    By your definition though, a lot of places would simply be off limits for a lot of civs,
    (like Poland for Prussia, S. Africa for England, or the Middle East for America)
    Contested also means a region is in the core of another civ, and there is none that corresponds to Tibet.
    So it's either Light Green (Historical) or Orange (Foreign).
     
  3. Tre59

    Tre59 Chieftain

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  4. LackingGravitas

    LackingGravitas Chieftain

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    Yeah I know it's orange for China, I thought yellow for contested because I thought it was, well, contested. Is yellow essentially green, except that it's in anothers core?
    but I just thought that the situation is possibly analogous with the situation of Wales/UK, wherein Wales was conquered by England hundreds of years ago but maintains a separate (or at least some of them do) Welsh identity. Except a bit more colonial and oppressive for Tibet o.O
    I'll grudgingly say it might be accurate for Tibet to be light green. hmm.
     
  5. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    Yes, exactly. "Contested" implies that while it's historical for you, another civ is claiming it as its core (by the way, this only starts to take effect after the civilization has spawned for the first time, so green areas can become yellow over time). If you have the SVN version, see the Concepts section of the civilopedia for details on the meanings of the colors.

    Tibet is already orange now, the bitmaps are a little outdated.
     
  6. Tomorrow's Dawn

    Tomorrow's Dawn Heroes Never Die

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    I'll give you as balanced of a lowdown as I can give:

    Well, Tibet has always been semi-autonomous but considered part of China since the Qing Dynasty, through the RoC, then to the PRC.
    Even early in Mao Zedong's regime, he helped subsidize the Dalai Lama's monasteries.
    But the CIA instigated a rebellion in the 1950's (to undermine communist China) and an army was marched in to prevent an American client state from being set up in the flank of China, which led to the Dalai Lama's exile. The CCP abolished all the old customs the theocratic elite imposed on the common Tibetans, like generational debt slavery and serfdom.
    Ever since then, the traditional semi-autonomy has been revoked and direct control has been more or less assumed.
    With it, standard of living has raised in general in Tibet as China invests in the region and builds infrastructure like schools & hospitals & etc., but people want the return of the Dalai Lama as a spiritual leader while depending on the Chinese economy, and they generally want a better piece of the pie (economic concerns) and more autonomy like they used to have. Also, more civil rights of course, although they get special treatment in some areas, like being exempt from the One Child Policy. Tibetan land is generally not arable, and with a growing population, they depend on their link with the rest of China to help sustain growth.
    Most people in the West erroneously believe that Tibet was independent forever and look to the Tibetan Empire, even though the time period is way off (Referring to the Tibetan Empire that competed with the Tang Dynasty). And stereotypes and perception about the Tibetans being super-spiritual special people by many Westerners only serves to dehumanize them, which is bad any way you look at it.

    Tibet also maintains a separate cultural identity, (despite what people say, Tibetan is still taught in schools in Tibet as a mandatory language)
    but there are some aspects that are being eroded by the modern lifestyle China brings to the region, to answer your question.

    China isn't right in the Tibetans not tasting enough of the nation's overall economic success and that the Dalai Lama should probably be allowed to return,
    granted he guarantees he won't start things again, and the West needs to open their eyes to not buying into an agenda that is meant to destabilize other countries.
    So the situation is a lot more grey and complex than what a lot of people are led to believe. I hope that helps.
     
  7. LackingGravitas

    LackingGravitas Chieftain

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    Wow, thanks, didn't know alot of that, like the CIA evoked rebellion thing. There's so much of history that I don't know about/would never think to ask of! :run:
     
  8. iOnlySignIn

    iOnlySignIn Prince$s

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    Please do not compare Wales to Tibet. It's insulting for Welsh people.

    There is simply no instance of a Tibetan person contributing to the Chinese civilization in the same way that David Lloyd George, Bertrand Russel, Robert Owen, or Anthony Hopkins have contributed to the British civilization. Or to the world in general, for that matter.
     
  9. Pavel Chichikov

    Pavel Chichikov King

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    You could argue the same for the Arabs proper.

    Re Tibet: If the CCP is considered an "improvement" over the old system, then we must be talking about Shining Path or Khmer rouge kind of people.
     
  10. Tomorrow's Dawn

    Tomorrow's Dawn Heroes Never Die

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    What is the Arabs comment in response to? Anyways.

    Disregarding your disregard for the negative points of CCP rule I did bring up in my post
    (eroding lifestyle due to modernity, return the Dalai Lama & the necessity of letting more Tibetans have access to more avenues of economic success),

    They brought electricity into Tibet and helped to sustain a growing population via trade and stimulus into the region.
    They have invested billions into infrastructure in the region as well, including paved roads, hospitals, running water & public transportation.
    They have also lifted many ordinary Tibetans out of generational serfdom into at least a lower/lower-middle class.

    While I won't say that the theocratic semi-autonomous government before in Tibet was Khmer Rouge status,
    it was lacking in many areas such as the extreme power concentrated in the theocracy
    as well as extraordinarily exploitative of the common Tibetan.
    CCP rule needs improvement as well, but it's baby steps.
     
  11. iOnlySignIn

    iOnlySignIn Prince$s

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    Tibet is f&Cking worthless. Nothing but a liability. Visit there once and you'll see that as plain as day.

    It has little natural or human resources. Its strategic value expired decades ago. It wastes millions of Chinese money every year (it's completely tax exempt and China subsidizes 90% of its expenditures). It wastes troops which can otherwise be disbanded to cut costs/used to defend more useful locations/used to develop a stronger navy. It gives China a bad international name and an easily exploitable weakness.

    China should have let it go ages ago. The only reason it's still keeping Tibet is out of foolish pride. Typical "All Under Heaven" and "Central Kingdom" arrogance and stupidity.

    It's like that ex-girlfriend you refuse to cut ties with despite all rational arguments to the contrary. She's stupid, she's ugly, she's a b!tch who besmirches your name, she's not even that good in bed. But you still keep paying her bills because it makes you feel like a rich guy. And that's China's purpose in life. To feel like a rich guy.
     
  12. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    I don't want to weigh in into this discussion (as it's not really relevant to the topic), but that sounds too much like a White Man's burden type of argument to me.
     
  13. civ_king

    civ_king Deus Caritas Est

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    I think psychologically they are worried about losing the Mandate of Heaven.

    That's just an attempt to justify it for the West, many Westerners complain about how awful the Chinese are to the Tibetans, if you read his post they haven't. I've even seen people claim China is committing ethnic cleansing/genocide which is absurd since Tibetans are allowed to have more children than Han (if China really wanted genocide there would be no Tibetans to complain).
     
  14. iOnlySignIn

    iOnlySignIn Prince$s

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    You'd think that after what happened in the last 200 years, it's apparent that such a thing does not exist.
     
  15. civ_king

    civ_king Deus Caritas Est

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    Old habits die hard, the older they are the harder they are to kill
     
  16. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    That's true. But whether the Chinese accomplishments on behalf of the Tibetans are true or not, they don't justify to keep Tibet inside the PRC against its will.
     
  17. civ_king

    civ_king Deus Caritas Est

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    Erm so?
    The CSA was violently pacified and reunited back into he US, Tibet was part of China longer that the Confederate states were.
     
  18. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    Oh, for all that is holy, please no ACW discussion.

    I think it should be clear that secession from a union where political participation was granted (only the result was inconvenient) and a centralist state is different. Not to mention the fundamental differences in how the Southern states and Tibet ended up as part of their superstates respectively.
     
  19. fabe

    fabe Warlord

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    Apples and oranges...
     
  20. alpav

    alpav Prince

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    Don't start this argument otherwise we will get into Kosovo, and South Sudan and who knows what else.
     

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