Stairway to Heaven #2: Pacal II of the Maya

[sampsa]

is actually, because of the AH availability, wrong assumption, lower levels make AH cheaper significantly and you can be assured that you will have pastures available long before the corn is irrigated.

Sorry, but don't agree with that at all. It being cheaper doesn't mean that skipping it isn't beneficial. Worker techs skipped lead to a faster oracle (or allows you to take something better) or faster war, whichever you please.

edit. When I said "lower levels", I didn't mean Noble or Prince btw.

 

[sampsa]

Played some 20 turns and

Spoiler :

Settled on the pig. It's sure an ultra-fast start. Not sure about the Oracle (a shame to skip it starting with myst and gold though), since I'm not sure what to take with it. CoL I guess and get a quick academy and some diplo manipulation possibilities with religion. Or should I prefer early forges? 120 hammers (=30h+3pop) is something that many of my cities can't afford soon though. Taking monarchy... meh, should be easy to get it quickly anyway. Also, stone is available for Mids.

Everyone I've met so far drinks cow blood for breakfast

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@Sampsa:

Spoiler :

CoL typically yields better returns than Metal Casting. New (awesome) civic + pre-req to Civil Service + denies the AIs a religion is win, win, win.
Agri, BW, Priesthood can indeed go very fast, if settling on the pigs (insert The Wheel if needed).

 

[pomthom]

Played 10 turns: from 4000 BC to 3560 BC (turn 11)

Smells like not a lot of room...

Spoiler :

4000 BC (turn 1):​

I decided I would not SIP (settle at least 1E, even if it means a 15 turn Worker - I prefer having the Gold). I followed BIC's suggestion of using the Warrior to actually reveal some land and so moved him 1NW:



Interesting. Possible 2nd city on the Plains Hill 2N1E of Pigs?

I then moved my Settler 1SE:



OMG Jungle!

I'm not taking the risk of running into that, I'll go back 1N and settle next turn.

3960 BC (turn 2):​

Mutal is born.



I didn't wait for you guys and went Agriculture because it seemed like a no-brainer to me.

3920 BC to 3600 BC (turns 3 to 10):​

I then went exploring along the Western coast with my Warrior and met these dudes:



[....SIGH...]



I know Buddhism was founded on turn 8, don't remember if Hindusim went or not.

3560 BC (turn 11):​

Agriculture is in.

So here's our situation:

Spoiler :

Land:​

Culture:​

Warrior:​

Production:​

OK Sury is really close, we are going to have to expand quickly. In general, the map hasn't announced a lot of good news (a lot of sushi but far far away, some desert Stone close-by...)

What to tech next? I'm thinking BW because of the chop-chop.

Aim for the Oracle-CoL slingshot? If so try BW > AH > Meditation > Priesthood > Writing ?

Mesdames et Messieurs, what do you think?​

 

[pomthom]

@sampsa
Should be interesting to see how paths diverge from our 2 settling positions...

 

[RagingHordes]

Have you ever tried working out your first turns with pen and paper?
Which city site do you expect to have contested by Sury?
(I think AH before BW.)

 

[pomthom]

Have you ever tried working out your first turns with pen and paper?

No, I should from time to time I guess (especially for Worker turn management VS tech'ing which I suck at).

Which city site do you expect to have contested by Sury?

Well I haven't revealed enough of the map to answer that, I just know his second city is in my face...

 

[sampsa]

Played too sloppy and had my 2nd city razed by barbs Just as I thought I had the NE covered...

On my Oracle date

Spoiler :

It seems like settling on the pigs can pull off Oracle -> CoL ~2240 BC (without barb risk if done correctly) which is pretty awesome imo. Strong players might see it from the initial screenshot already.

You need to research AH, your worker comes 6 turns later... Maybe you can do 1900ish (with 2 cities).

 

[Fippy]

Tech path..bit problematic, remember you want hunting for Holkans too if no copper around.
See it's why Pigs are rated lower than Corn (i would most likely not have suggested settling on another wet corn), where does AH fit in here now..you need so much fast if poss, even with gold.
Skipping AH if possible is always great on Deity, unless you want HAs.

 

[pomthom]

Tech path..bit problematic, remember you want hunting for Holkans too if no copper around.
See it's why Pigs are rated lower than Corn (i would most likely not have suggested settling on another wet corn), where does AH fit in here now..you need so much fast if poss, even with gold.
Skipping AH if possible is always great on Deity, unless you want HAs.

I could always skip it for now, and irrigate Pigs + FP for food... The thing is that not having settled these Pigs will allow me to settle a close city to the West (which is not a luxury here...)

 

[RagingHordes]

What you might have to skip, now that you know you have a Cre neighbor, is the Oracle.
With a Gold in your BFC, I can see no reason to skip any worker tech.

The fact is, being short of land is no rarity on Deity Pangaea type of maps, so saving a Pig tile (already in your culture!) for an extra city is no small accomplishment. It was not a wrong move. Not at all!

Revealing Horses is also relevant here. Sury typically sprawls his empire everywhere and is very dangerous mid-late game. But as an early rush target he's one of the best. And, you start with a Gold and not without forests, which screams rush.

What was your plan in the scouting pattern?

 

[pomthom]

What you might have to skip, now that you know you have a Cre neighbor, is the Oracle.
With a Gold in your BFC, I can see no reason to skip any worker tech.

The fact is, being short of land is no rarity on Deity Pangaea type of maps, so saving a Pig tile (already in your culture!) for an extra city is no small accomplishment. It was not a wrong move. Not at all!

Revealing Horses is also relevant here. Sury typically sprawls his empire everywhere and is very dangerous mid-late game. But as an early rush target he's one of the best. And, you start with a Gold and not without forests, which screams rush.

What was your plan in the scouting pattern?

Hmm food for thought... Having Gold + being financial certainly doesn't need the Oracle but it does deny it from the AI... Game after game I'm realizing I actually don't like to Oracle because I love to cottage early.

About the scouting pattern, I like to follow coast with my first scout because it's easier to avoid Barbs (that's all really)

 

[sampsa]

About the scouting pattern, I like to follow coast with my first scout because it's easier to avoid Barbs (that's all really)

I'd rather try to scout all the land that is possible to claim with the next 2-3 cities. Going further than that feels unnecessary. Knowing if you have strategic/happy resources is important, also for techpath. Also you might simply miss a great spot.

 

[pomthom]

I'd rather try to scout all the land that is possible to claim with the next 2-3 cities. Going further than that feels unnecessary. Knowing if you have strategic/happy resources is important, also for techpath. Also you might simply miss a great spot.

You can also miss spots by dying but point taken

 

[vranasm]

well this one seems to me like one of the rare situations which would warrant axe rush with the enemy capital so close...

 

[RagingHordes]

You are right to try and scout as safely as possible.

Of course, it would be safest to just stay home, so you do need to take some risks.
Another map element that acts just like the coast (prevents barbs from spawning on one side) is the border (yours or an AI's). I don't know when you scouted Sury, but it would have been useful to map him out a bit, to figure where he is likely to push on you.

 

[pomthom]

You are right to try and scout as safely as possible.

Of course, it would be safest to just stay home, so you do need to take some risks.
Another map element that acts just like the coast (prevents barbs from spawning on one side) is the border (yours or an AI's). I don't know when you scouted Sury, but it would have been useful to map him out a bit, to figure where he is likely to push on you.

HIS cultural borders scouted ME out

I'll scout closer surroundings with my second Warrior

 

[sampsa]

well this one seems to me like one of the rare situations which would warrant axe rush with the enemy capital so close...

The starting save is provided, so why don't you give it a shot? I'm sure you can beat my 2200 BC loss.

 

[vranasm]

The starting save is provided, so why don't you give it a shot? I'm sure you can beat my 2200 BC loss.

well i don't think I am skilled enough ;-)

 

[sampsa]

2nd try (settling on the pig) to 2200 BC

Spoiler :

It's pretty unconventionally played (whipped 2nd worker @size4 only then chopped settler), but it doesn't look bad, huh? That plains hill should be mined by now though, so the micro was not perfect at all. Wanted 2nd city to size 4 for instantly running 3 scientists. A lot of forest is gone and while Lakamha is producting GS all the settler-pumping must be done from the cap. So all the forest must go I guess.