Stairway to Heaven #2: Pacal II of the Maya

[pomthom]

I really like 2nd city 3S of capital to share the corn. The main benefit of your settling is that you can share food (because you didn't settle on it ).

Well I prefer that too but was arguing against it because it was so close to Sury borders. However I think I might just do it because it will be productive much sooner and will share cottage tiles.

You should remove that ALT+X fat cross for now, until you know exactly how the land is laid out.

It was purely educational so that it illustrated my thoughts more clearly. Alt+X and Alt+S wingdings were deleted just after the screenshot

If the aim is to block as much land as possible, then I wouldn't settle 3 tiles away but rather 4, or even 5.

The aim is also to have a reasonable number of cities in an enclosed space. I have to be careful to not kill the possibilities of decent overlapping.

Sury expanding to the sugar/banana jungle is not the end of the world, is it?

Well it fuels his expansion towards the North (which I don't want, "King of the North!"), uncomfortablly extends our border with him (which is problematic in case of war + increases culture pressure), and it grants him an actually decent spot once all the jungle is gone. Don't like to be surrounded

Both food resources can't be simultaneously given away (until cap is in max size), that is true. But it does add a LOT of flexibility.

Mutal can handle food, sure, but sharing it speeds up growth in auxiliary cities --> they will grow cottages sooner. And those cottages are given back to Mutal when Mutal wants them. Right?

Even if you want war, to me 3S of cap looks like the best spot to claim horsie.

Sounds reasonable to me, I think you just talked me into it

 

[pomthom]

Played 39 turns: from 2640 BC to 1080 BC (turn 73)

And I decided for a Horse Archer rush!! Let's hope we'll die a quick death...


Here was ma' cunning plan:

Step 1. TW > Writing > HBR > Alpha (trade) > Hunting > Archery. But also Maths (bulbed, as in AZ's sepcial HA rush technique)
Step 2. Chop-chop-chop-chop-chop
Step 3. ​

That means setting aside Pottery for a while (and you sayz "What??? Dude you are FIN and EXP for crying out loud!!") but I think it's reasonable considering I'm not going to whip heavily for the moment, we don't have a lot of cottage space anyway ('cause I want to keep the forests until Math), we have a riverside Gold + we'll run 2 early Scientists for our GS.

Back to the action:

Spoiler :

2640 BC to 2120 BC (turns 34 to 47):​

(BW) > TW > Writing (finished)
Mutal: Settler > Settler (and 1 chop with OF into) > Worker (finished)

In the meantime, this Barb city is settled to the East:



I post my 2 Settlers South (near the Horses) and West respectively waiting for the AI settling parties (I want to settle at the last possible moment).

I revolt into Slavery so that I can whip a quick Library (need to get going on those Scientists!).

2120 BC to 2000 BC (turns 47 to 50):​

(Writing) > HBR
Oh oh... time to settle the Horses!





I don't share the Corn just yet, because I want to whip my Library first.

1920 BC (turn 52):​

I whip the Library in Mutal (OF into a Worker):

1880 BC (turn 53):​

Oh oh... time to settle our 3rd city!

1480 BC (turn 63):​

(HBR is in!) > Alpha (Montezuma has it so I'll put some beakers in it and trade it for HBR)

I am getting litterally surrounded by Cathy, I might go for her first... And I'm pre-chopping like crazy!!

1320 BC to 1160 BC (turns 67 to 71):​

Monty captures the Eastern Barb city... Oh well (better him than 1 of the creative dudes).



And he's plotting!!

But he's also willing to trade!



I reasearch Hunting and Archery in 3 turns, I'm only missing Maths to start pumping death on horses! My GS is due in 2 turns, meanwhile I start researching Currency.

Also get these tech deals:





Only Iron source is NE near the Stone (need to settle that place soon but I don't really have the luxury to spare some for a Settler...)

1080 BC (turn 73):​

Et voilà!



Math is in. TIME TO CHOP

So here's our situation:

Spoiler :

Land:​

Culture:​

Units:​

Diplo:​

Religion:​

Buddhist love fest apart from Cathy (Hindu).

Wonders:​

Production:​

Not too unhappy about my pace, I think 1080 BC is a reasonable date to be chopping out HA at the production-rate I'm about to unleash.

I think I should go for Cathy (I'll have to scout a bit before obviously, Sury too): she's a cultural pain, she's the only non-buddhist and she doesn't have Horses. Would be nice if she didn't have a lot of metal...

I may be able to bribe in Gengis once I reach Currency and I DoW.

Mesdames et Messieurs, what do you think?​

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Skipping Pottery isn't normally advisable, but to do so to bulb Mathematics seems reasonable. It is great that you were able to get Pottery in trade later. Would have been nice to build those cheap Granaries (Pacal II is Expansive) earlier, which has synergy with whipping. Not saying you did anything wrong; just pointing out obvious advantages that Pacal II has that were not utilized yet.

Need more scouting of Catherine and Suryavarman II, before declaring War. Espionage might help via Spies destroying one or more of Catherine's Copper Mines; also Horse Archers could pillage Copper too, when mine location is not too far or dangerous. May want to set up a test game to explore espionage options, but sabotaging at least one mine seems plausible. However, the AI may quickly rebuild the mine, if military units do not quickly threaten the plot.

Can Montezuma be bribed into the War?

Current research choice of Currency is perfect.

I should not comment further without seeing the save.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[RagingHordes]

HA rush was definitely the best option. Good luck!

 

[pomthom]

Would have been nice to build those cheap Granaries (Pacal II is Expansive) earlier, which has synergy with whipping.

Agree completely but barely was able to build just a Barracks in each city + enough workers (+ Stable in cap). I'll see how it goes and if I can spare some production to build the granaries: some time very soon I won't have forests to chop anymore!

Need more scouting of Catherine and Suryavarman II, before declaring War. Espionage might help via Spies destroying one or more of Catherine's Copper Mines; also Horse Archers could pillage Copper too, when mine location is not too far or dangerous. May want to set up a test game to explore espionage options, but sabotaging at least one mine seems plausible. However, the AI may quickly rebuild the mine, if military units do not quickly threaten the plot.

Very good suggestion about espionnage, my points have been on Sury for the moment.

Can Montezuma be bribed into the War?

No, he's plotting
I have high hopes for Gengis though

 

[Robert FIN]

If you're going to rush the russians, you have to keep an eye to the biggest backstabbers left; Monty and Sury. I fear that Monty can DoW you anytime. He prefers Sury and Genghis over you in diplo!

 

[sampsa]

Settling 1N on the pig --> HA is imo much stronger (faster, harder, better) than settle 1E --> HA, but of course you didn't have the info about neighbors and lack of space on T0, so putting those trees into use asap might be a good idea.

The issue with an early war on this map is diplo. Religion spread favors you (you have an obvious target), but you need to have a way to avoid getting dogpiled. Sury can be bribed against you even @pleased towards you, even if you get him there. Well, begging something @pleased works of course.

I take it none of your cities have Buddhism? Scouting Monty asap to open up trade routes would have been a good idea to get religion spread. He rarely builds missionaries I guess (at least ones that don't carry a sword/axe/stick/rock).

 

[BornInCantaloup]

I don't think it was warranted to skip Pottery, nor to delay the settling of cities 2&3.

With Pottery, you could have had a lot more production (through Granaries) and a higher commerce output. This start seems very cottage friendly to me.
The benefits from Writing are much lower than those from Pottery (sustained tech pace), especially since you didn't use your GS to build an Academy (bulbing is alright but then the GP is lost and the comparison with Pottery becomes even more favourable to cottages). Getting to Alphabet is nice, however.

Settling earlier = earlier growth = earlier production = earlier everything. 2nd and 3rd cities aren't such drags that they should be delayed. On the contrary! They're pure bonuses, provided a trade network and reasonable distance to capital.

Now you're surrounded... yes of course! How could it not be so, considering your settling pattern?
HA war may solve it all: no problem but no surprise either.

Scout, indeed! Try your best not to stifle your economy, long-term (short term, it may be ok, or even necessary)
Good luck!

 

[Fippy]

I mainly think..you have 5 workers for this area, how did that happen oO
It's slow, turn 73 and no HA completed yet (not to mention stables or granaries).
I think you are very lucky with how AIs "fell" on this map, if you win here.

 

[pomthom]

I mainly think..you have 5 workers for this area, how did that happen oO
It's slow, turn 73 and no HA completed yet (not to mention stables or granaries).
I think you are very lucky with how AIs "fell" on this map, if you win here.

I thought it was pretty standard to have a lot of Workers to pump out chopped HAs... I've pre-chopped most of all this forest + built roads to enemy territory, I'm going to get out a lot of units to the front really really fast. These Workers will also help me improve cottages over the ashes of the forests.

Considering what they cost for an EXP leader I think it was actually a pretty good call

 

[pomthom]

Skipping Pottery was certainly an odd gamble because of the missing Granaries, but these will be my first whips when I run out of forests. Saving all the forests for Math is going to turn out to be a very awarding production bonus I think.

Come on guys don't be so negative, I'll get'em!

 

[Fippy]

Well i was hoping you see your mistake yourself
You preserve pigs, but have no granaries yet. Now food is not important, whipping HAs could also be great with exp? Hmm? Hmm!

I count 8..10..12 forests in your culture. Okay, not bad but you cannot rely on this alone.

 

[pomthom]

I think you are very lucky with how AIs "fell" on this map, if you win here.

If I win my first Deity on pangaea with Gengis, Monty, Shaka, Sury, Cathy and Gilgs I hope it won't be because I was lucky

 

[RagingHordes]

You should hope to get a little bit lucky with HAs.
For me, scouting is the most important aspect of HA attacks. I like to make sure those first few units scout out the number of target units and that I can understand what is the production rate of the target.
I find that getting the sweet striking spot is more important than the setup. Good luck!

 

[ben-jammin]

I thought it was pretty standard to have a lot of Workers to pump out chopped HAs... I've pre-chopped most of all this forest + built roads to enemy territory, I'm going to get out a lot of units to the front really really fast. These Workers will also help me improve cottages over the ashes of the forests.

Considering what they cost for an EXP leader I think it was actually a pretty good call

You don't need to chop all the forests ASAP for an HA rush. You only need enough of a stack to get started (which usually means taking a first city and being able to take out whatever small stack comes out into the open, and also ideally pillage copper/iron if they have only one source and it's near your borders). After that it's all about having a steady stream of reinforcements more than having a dozen forests chopped in a dozen turns. It doesnt hurt, but you'd be fine with only 2-3 workers and granaries instead (by the end of the rush you would normally have gotten far more hammers via whips than from chopping, which is why I usually don't d othe whole math bulb routine).

This map is already lucky in that it has three of the most aggressive warmongers and a backstabber but none of them start next to you. That's not a bad thing....

 

[Doshin]

Chop Granaries before chopping any HArchers. Think about it this way:

• Forest = 30 = 1/2 a HArcher

OR

• Forest = 60 = 1 Granary

Now, in terms of whipping:

• 2-pop = 60 = 1 HArcher

But a Granary means that 50% of food is stored after growth. In a (grossly simplified) way, this means that each Granary chop:

• 2-pop = 90 = 1.5 HArchers

I know, you don't actually get 90 , but you regrow that much faster. I'm just shifting the numbers in a way that I hope is not misleading. There are other things which complicate matters. But basically, the above results in:


(A) Pure HArcher Approach

Chopping 3 Forests = 1.5 HArchers
Whipping 6-pop = 3 HArchers

= 4.5 HArchers total​

(B) Granary and HArcher Approach

Chopping 3 Forests = 3 Granaries
Whipping 6-pop = 4.5 HArchers

= 3 Granaries; 4.5 HArchers total​

This is simplified, but you get the idea. Apologies if I mislead inadvertently.

 

[shakabrade]

Dosh, HA costs 50

 

[Fippy]

What usually works best anyways, whips (after all 2 pop create 60h aka 2x forest + maths) while happiness allows, and add chops so that you for example can build 2 in a row with just 1 forest used.
At least if you have good food and granaries (or if no granary, do so when only whipping away unimportant tiles or over-growing), and whipping earlier than chopping also recovers anger faster.
Other possibility would be heavy mined up but still slower than whips while they are no problem.

 

[blunderwonder]

Im gonna give this a shot on deity, ill probably play quite a bit faster than you guys though, i wont spoil anything though, and ill either lose quickly or get into reasonable position and stop for awhile

i do love ha rushes

 

[blunderwonder]

Im gonna give this a shot on deity, ill probably play quite a bit faster than you guys though, i wont spoil anything though, and ill either lose quickly or get into reasonable position and stop for awhile

i do love ha rushes