Starting Luxuries Tier List

[Gazebo]

In other news, here's the current tech tree changes I've made for resources:

Spoiler :

You'll notice that bronze and iron working have new icons...that's for the production from chopping. So you can chop at Calendar/Mining, BUT you won't receive any production unless you have Bronze/Iron working. I upped the base production from chopping for both to match at 40 production, so the investment is a bit more of a payoff now.

 

[CrazyG]

They do now.

G

I'd prefer them not pillaging work boats.

Barbarians unlock naval units at fishing, a long time before major civs do, you have no defense available.

 

[Gazebo]

I'd prefer them not pillaging work boats.

Barbarians unlock naval units at fishing, a long time before major civs do, you have no defense available.

They're still time-gated. And they don't unlock boats until 60% of all civs have fishing.

G

 

[CrazyG]

They're still time-gated. And they don't unlock boats until 60% of all civs have fishing.

G

I don't think you should add the pillaging unless you move their boats back to 60% of having sailing. Its going to feel awful when you can't build ships and barbs pillage 300 gold of work boats.

 

[Gazebo]

I don't think you should add the pillaging unless you move their boats back to 60% of having sailing. Its going to feel awful when you can't build ships and barbs pillage 300 gold of work boats.

Should be sailing, actually, for the barb galley. I forgot it was a UU for barbs. :X

 

[pineappledan]

So to clarify, it’s 40 for chopping at bronze and 80 at iron, or is it 20/40?

if you chop outside your border is it still worth less? Like 40 at bronze in your border and 20 outside?

 

[LifeOfBrian]

In other news, here's the current tech tree changes I've made for resources:


You'll notice that bronze and iron working have new icons...that's for the production from chopping. So you can chop at Calendar/Mining, BUT you won't receive any production unless you have Bronze/Iron working. I upped the base production from chopping for both to match at 40 production, so the investment is a bit more of a payoff now.

I like this, but I'm a bit confused - the tooltip says the production from chopping increases by 50% with Bronze working, but you say that you'll get no production from chopping unless you have Bronze working?

 

[Gazebo]

I like this, but I'm a bit confused - the tooltip says the production from chopping increases by 50% with Bronze working, but you say that you'll get no production from chopping unless you have Bronze working?

Right. So you'll get 50% of 40 at bronze, additional 50% at iron.

G

 

[Gazebo]

So to clarify, it’s 40 for chopping at bronze and 80 at iron, or is it 20/40?

if you chop outside your border is it still worth less? Like 40 at bronze in your border and 20 outside?

20/40; chopping value goes down based on ring distance from city, vanilla thing IIRC.

G

 

[pineappledan]

20/40; chopping value goes down based on ring distance from city, vanilla thing IIRC.

Isn't that a slight nerf then? Right now chopping gives up to 30 at bronze. If the chopping is going to get detached with a step up in classical, then it should be at least 30/60, no?

 

[Gazebo]

Isn't that a slight nerf then? Right now chopping gives up to 30 at bronze. If the chopping is going to get detached with a step up in classical, then it should be at least 30/60, no?

I think it is a wash given the earlier access. The value of the chop is subsidiary to the tile it reveals for an improvement.

 

[LifeOfBrian]

Right. So you'll get 50% of 40 at bronze, additional 50% at iron.

G

Ok, but the wording is somewhat misleading, especially for newer players, because an increase of 50% from 0 is still zero?

 

[Stalker0]

Ok, but the wording is somewhat misleading, especially for newer players, because an increase of 50% from 0 is still zero?

Yeah, should it simply say (chopping now provides 20 hammers) or something like that. Also if we are now making prod from chopping a benefit for certain techs I say remove the crazy distance penalties, and just give them the hammers. If its 20, its 20....no matter what.

 

[pineappledan]

I think it is a wash given the earlier access. The value of the chop is subsidiary to the tile it reveals for an improvement.

As you say, the instant boost is secondary to the resource, if there is one beneath it. As a result, I worry that this makes bronze even less desireable as a tech. A turn spent researching bronze is a turn not spent researching a tech with more necessary bonuses. Civs with a spear replacement feel punished.

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

In other news, here's the current tech tree changes I've made for resources:

Spoiler :

View attachment 544699

You'll notice that bronze and iron working have new icons...that's for the production from chopping. So you can chop at Calendar/Mining, BUT you won't receive any production unless you have Bronze/Iron working. I upped the base production from chopping for both to match at 40 production, so the investment is a bit more of a payoff now.

In terms of consistency and flavor i'm digging this but in terms of gameplay i don't think this is a good idea tbh.
It helps easier connection of forest plantation luxuries but it actually hurts jungle plantation start and Goddess of springtime into Temple of Artemis a lot; these starts are really production light and usually dependent on the push from the free herbalist but without the from chopping jungles it would be really hard to get the Temple in time.

 

[pineappledan]

In terms of consistency and flavor i'm digging this but in terms of gameplay i don't think this is a good idea tbh.
It helps easier connection of forest plantation luxuries but it actually hurts jungle plantation start and Goddess of springtime into Temple of Artemis a lot; these starts are really production light and usually dependent on the push from the free herbalist but without the from chopping jungles it would be really hard to get the Temple in time.

On the other hand, this gives me hope. If it's such a problem having no production outside of the bottom techs then maybe things are better then before and bronze is more useful

 

[JamesNinelives]

You can connect a monopoly with 2 or 3 cities most of the time on standard, 3 or 4 on huge. Look at your last huge map. CAN you get 6 copies in 3 cities? Most of the time you CAN. Maybe you didn't, and maybe that was the better choice. But if you aren't at least thinking about how to get your monopoly connected super quickly on a resource like wine, you are missing an opportunity for a powerful and fun opening.

OK, let me put this in context. I play with a jungle start bias. Getting a monopoly quickly is just not going to happen. At least now I understand where you are coming from lol. Yes, you very often can get 6 luxuries in 3 cities, and coastal resources are much quicker to improve is you tech that way.

Now if you are researching animal husbandry and bronze working, settling near strategics instead of your luxuries, you probably aren't getting fishing boats connected very quickly (which doesn't mean you can't, just that you choose not to).

Sure, but I could just as equally say that fishing is a tech placed in an annoying location that takes me away from other things that I usually want to tech to (like Military Theory, Calender, and Mathematics). Or that while pearls provide excellent yield when improved (especially after a monopoly) their intial yields really aren't that great.

Maritime luxuries can usually be connected faster, this is a fact.

It's not about what the facts are, it's about how you are presenting them. I was never trying to disprove you, I am simply sharing my experience to compliment yours and give a more complete picture. It's not all bad, but it's not all good either. I don't need your experiences to be invalid in order for mine to be valid. I felt that's what you were trying to do though, by playing the 'I have lots of experience' card (why else would you pull that out?). We can both be correct. I'm very OK with that.

 

[JamesNinelives]

In terms of consistency and flavor i'm digging this but in terms of gameplay i don't think this is a good idea tbh.
It helps easier connection of forest plantation luxuries but it actually hurts jungle plantation start and Goddess of springtime into Temple of Artemis a lot; these starts are really production light and usually dependent on the push from the free herbalist but without the from chopping jungles it would be really hard to get the Temple in time.

I agree. Temple of Artemis is the main way that I get good returns on jungle starts. Playing Iroquois in the jungle is pretty nice too though!

I think it is a wash given the earlier access. The value of the chop is subsidiary to the tile it reveals for an improvement.

To be clear, if I have researched Calender and but not Bronze Working yet, I get zero hammers? Seems like that's clearly a nerf for jungle starts.

Granted I like that Iron Working now has something to distinguish it, gives me a big reason to tech there even as a peaceful civ (which I very rarely did previously).

 

[CrazyG]

I play with a jungle start bias.

If you play only a fraction of all starting positions, I don't see how your own experience provides a more complete picture. It provides a really biased point of view., especially if you refuse to even try rushing a monopoly quickly.

With that said, you're still wrong, I've successfully rushed monopolies on jungle cocoa and citrus. The OP specifically refers to the early monopoly for these resources as being strong. It can happen quickly if you try, in fact the +2 culture and science monopolies were moved to jungle plantations specifically to compensate the slower start in jungle.

This is a balance discussion, the option to rush them should be part of the discussion. "But I don't rush them" isn't a rebuttal. You SHOULD at least try rushing them. Right now you are essentially arguing about the strength of a strategy you have not and (apparently) will not try.

 

[JamesNinelives]

If you play only a fraction of all starting positions, I don't see how your own experience provides a more complete picture. It provides a really biased point of view., especially if you refuse to even try rushing a monopoly quickly.

With that said, you're still wrong, I've successfully rushed monopolies on jungle cocoa and citrus. The OP specifically refers to the early monopoly for these resources as being strong. It can happen quickly if you try, in fact the +2 culture and science monopolies were moved to jungle plantations specifically to compensate the slower start in jungle.

This is a balance discussion, the option to rush them should be part of the discussion. "But I don't rush them" isn't a rebuttal. You SHOULD at least try rushing them. Right now you are essentially arguing about the strength of a strategy you have not and (apparently) will not try.

Please don't patronize me. Just because I play a certain way now doesn't mean I'd done exactly the same thing over and over again. I choose these setting because I have tried various options and this is what I find the most fun.

"But I don't rush them" isn't a rebuttal.

Why do you still think I'm trying to rebutt you? This is a discussion, not a brawl. I am simply presenting a different perspective.

You SHOULD at least try rushing them.

See my previous point. I've been there and didn't enjoy it. I play differently to you. That doesn't mean I'm not aware of my options. I used to prefer plains or grassland starts, which is why I like perfume (and horses) so much. Coastal starts are also fun because the Great Lighthouse is exceptional, and Coral provides some delicious yields. Tundra, Snow, and Desert are surprisingly useable if you have a UI (like the Encampment) you can build on them, and the Kasbah is hecking incredible on top of a forest.

I think we've gotten well and truly away from the point of the discussion though.