stDarNES1: Stars! Preview Thread

[Kal'thzar]

looks interesting.

 

[Disenfrancised]

Stars! what a great game that was, I loved the ship designing interface (though there were some loopholes you could exploit that could be irritating)

 

[Darwin420]

@Daftpanzer: I like the dot idea around the Star Systems.. It would make life easier to be able to tell at a glance what the stats are for each System. I'm going to take a stab at a basic Starmap this weekend.

Since the three most basic stats are FOOD, INDUSTRY, and POPULATION, and each star will have limits on how much of what, it probably won't be hard to implement an idea such as this.

I'm trying to make the rules as interesting as possible, while maintaining simplicity. Not an easy task!

 

[Erik Mesoy]

As far as maintaining a complete and utter HARD SF standard, I cannot fully agree with this. I refuse to give in to the Trek "particle-of-the-week-to-save-the-day" but I also need to suspend belief for purposes of game and story telling. If you're looking for advanced physics theory and whatnot, then, sorry, this will not be the NES for you. If you're looking to have fun with a futuristic story-based NES, then you've come to the right place.

That's fine. That's more than fine. I just don't want my fleet slapped down by a storywriter who thinks "physics is for sissies" and, essentially, godmodes.
(NS has a hilarious article on the subject.)

Black boxes are the best for suspension of disbelief. Can't poke holes in something you know nothing about!

Now on to commenting the rules.

ECONOMY:
-- Economy is used to increase FOOD Production in your Star Systems, increase INDUSTRY capacity in your Star Systems, advance your RESEARCH, and establish TRADE NETWORKS (inter-system or between empires).
-- Economy is gained through POPULATION:

1m(illion) - 9.9million = 1 point
10m - 49.9m = 2 points
50m - 99.9m = 3 points
100m - 499m = 4 points
500m - 999m = 5 points
1b(illion) - 2.9b = 6 points
3b - 5.9b = 7 points
6b - 9.9b = 8 points
10b+ = 9 points

-- Economy is calculated from the TOTAL EMPIRE POPULATION, not by Star System.

Yuck to the scaling. What's the initial population size, anyway? Also, yuck to the values. I'd start at something like 10m-25m = 1 point and scale up with a factor of 2.5 at every level, so that the next would be 25.1-62.5 and then 62.6-156.2, 156.3-390.6, 390.7-976.5. Add a minor amount of tweaking to keep the numbers round.

INDUSTRY:
-- Defines your industrial capacity, which is necessary to construct your FLEET and train your ARMY.
-- Industrial capacity is combined for a Total Empire Industrial Capacity, which is then spent on building new units, and (possibly) maintaining/supporting the units you already have. <-- set in place to limit unrealistically huge armies/fleets, rather than limit by population.

Yes, I agree that you should require upkeep for armies. But if you're going to have customizable armies, upkeep will almost have to be decimal, and/or building costs will have to be ridiculously huge, which contradicts the low economy you have. So I have an idea: Have an upkeep of population, representing "Number of people you have to recruit to the army in order to find someone who can fly the damn thing."

RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT:

- Research will be split into several different categories. ECONOMY must be invested into research in order to gain the next level in the technology field. As technology progresses, it will require more and more research to gain the next level. **It is NOT decided at this time what the tech level limit will be for this game**
EXAMPLE: Energy: 1/1/3 (first tech level, one economy invested from last turn, need total of 3 economies to gain tech level 2).

- I am thinking the following cost for each tech level:
T2=3, T3=5, T4=8, T5=12, T6=15, T7=20, T8=25, T9=30

Great, but please don't let it get exponentially out of hand the way Economy does in oh so many other games.
Looking at your costs, they seem a bit irregular. Why not use the Fibbonacci numbers, so that each level costs as much as the two previous ones? It would start 3, 5, 8, 13...
Either way, (T6-T5) < (T5-T4) looks plain wierd.



Now, I really want to see some ship design rules, and weapon systems...
If you like, I can give you some idea on futuristic weapon systems, or tech in general. Just name the category.

 

[KrimzonStriker]

I want in, just so I can get vengance for that. Krimzon, you DIE. DIE TO THE MAX.

What the heck did I do, just so everyone knows I want to be on the otherside of the galaxy from Fantasmo now.

 

[Disenfrancised]

Your rules are looking okay, I'm interested in your reasoning for the research fields (the old Stars! ones of energy, weapons, propulsion, construction, electronics and biotechnology seem to cover some things missed out in your ones).

I would really like for you to include a electronics/infomation tech field whatever - help with economy/trade, build sensors and stealth, conduct cyber espionage etc.

Also are ships going to have a set speed in the stats? if so a propulsion tech would be nice (it could also have influences on industry since it is associated with power production and trade).

 

[KrimzonStriker]

The Principality of Zaira


In the Outer reaches of Space, the Dominion had experimented in self-supporting space colonies to pave the way for human dominance on the rim worlds of their territory. However, it proved to be a more difficult task then originally surmised. The conditioning of space proved too much for humans to survive under long turn conditions. Undaunted the Dominion conducted test upon the colonist to enhance them enough to survive their new homes, at the same time exploring new simulator devices in order to create artificial environments similar to earth. The result was the most technologically advanced marvel of the time, and the creation of humanities future.

The new and improved versions of humanity while looking exactly liked their degenerate counterparts proved to be far more advanced physically and mentally. This success led to a revolution turning a once-wayward experiment into a symbol of perfection. The colonist were endowed with far more power then ever realized and utilized it fully. They spread their artificial homes throughout their sector, even managing to set up outpost on remote planets for future colonization and founding their capital colony Zaira. Many of the revolutions in science originated from their achievements. They were the most advanced people in the galaxy.

But with that power came frustration at living on the bended whim of the Dominion. Why should they, the superior people be forced into the service of an unworthy government? Tensions reached a boiling point as the Zairians rallied the other colonies behind them, claiming that they were the true heirs of humanity by right of evolution and that it was their sacred duty to usher the rest of humanity onto this path. However, the Dominion was growing stronger with each year, spanning a huge empire, and being the wise people they are they remained dormant while secretly building up.

Advanced weaponry, and a massive defense grid were established while they churned out ships with their superior science. If not for the Scourge the results would have been all out war. While the Dominion broke apart the colonist withdrew to their own space, using their genetic research to fend off the disease. Now with it’s passing the colonist were ready to reclaim the other broken human factions and enlighten them into their new species. They formed The Principality of Zaira as their own sovereign state, and created the military branch known as ZAFT to open up their campaign for dominance.

The Principality supports a vast and continually improving array of weaponry to apply to their forces. While superior in many respects to normal humans, their restriction space stations and unexpected side effects from the genetic enhancements have limited their population. However, they sport a devastating defense around their home colony and sector proving a very good deterrent from would be invaders. Now properly secured they seek to expand their power and integrate their natural born brethren into their society to curry their population upward and carve out an empire that will take humanity to the next level.

OCC: This is my nation here, I'll add stats when somebody approves some rules and gives me an example of how well play this.

 

[TerrisH]

Now on to commenting the rules.
Yuck to the scaling. What's the initial population size, anyway? Also, yuck to the values. I'd start at something like 10m-25m = 1 point and scale up with a factor of 2.5 at every level, so that the next would be 25.1-62.5 and then 62.6-156.2, 156.3-390.6, 390.7-976.5. Add a minor amount of tweaking to keep the numbers round.

I agree. the scale is a bit... off. if it were per-system, It might fit. but if it is to be an empire wide one, the scale needs to go up a bit. hmm Try this one.
10m - 30m= 1 point
30.1m - 90m= 2 points
90.1m - 270m= 3 points
270.1m - 800m= 4 points
800.1m - 2.5b= 5 points
2.51b - 10b= 6 points
10.1b - 30b= 7 points
30.1b - 50b= 8 points
50.1b+ = 9 points

the Amounts are nice and Rounded, and they losely fit a *3 multiplier, except for the 6 point transition, but that was for Astetic Reasons. This Scale works Assuming the Natural food lvl of each planet is about 500 million, and the maximum Urbanization point of a planet would be around 10 billion.

 

[Darwin420]

Appreciate the comments and suggestions. I know scaling is off, and I'm attempting to adjust for it as I fiddle with the rules. This is a bit harder than I imagined, but I'm determined.

I shall hopefully have a bunch more info posted by Monday, but PLEASE keep throwing suggestions in here.

If anyone has any ideas for fleet customization that won't make me go absolutely BONKERS on each update, I'd appreciate it.

 

[TerrisH]

Try the Old Tried and True Slot System. Every Hull has a Limited number of Slots(which increases with the size of the hull and technology Level). each Weapon/fighter/drive/whatever takes up a certain number of Slots. I would go into more detail, but I'm writing up the System-stats for the Trinity's (outline of the planets, base poulation (I'm keeping it low for now), and a bigrophy of how they Survived the Long night. and I want to get some sleep. I'll go into more detail tomorrow night if you want.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

Why not use a civlike system for planets ?(if you aren't already)

Food, Industry, and Commerce!

Sorry, that is actually obvious and stupid. It's really late where I am, and I'm about to wrap the Starcraft Brood War campaign.

Damn Kerrigan, she's SOOOO evil.

 

[andis-1]

Try the Old Tried and True Slot System. Every Hull has a Limited number of Slots(which increases with the size of the hull and technology Level). each Weapon/fighter/drive/whatever takes up a certain number of Slots.

This sounds good one. Then you could calculate the attack range and damage for each ship type based on the weaponry of the ship. This would make it easier for you to resolve the outcomes of battles.
Actually you could support immense amount of different techs if you would give every weapon some spesifics like damage, build cost, and, uhm, range?

All races could then have their unique ship types, assuming that everyne would be recearshing different tecs.

 

[Disenfrancised]

If you use a hull slot system you could even take the ships directly fromt he Stars! game ones!

 

[Erik Mesoy]

I agree with having socket ships. Start with basic models that have 2 and 3 slots, then allow Construction research to open up larger models which are more cost-effective.

Possible slot items:
WEAPONS
Kinetic missiles
Impact detonators
Laser thingies
Plasma thingies

ARMOR
Force shielding
Hull plating

Miscellaneous:
-Engines
-Invasion modules (troop transport pods)
-Colony pods
-Power generators

Some of these should be different sizes.

 

[andis-1]

WEAPONS
Kinetic missiles
Impact detonators
Laser thingies
Plasma thingies

+ Missiles/projectiles

Has anyone played space empires? Best space colonizing game ever. Huge numbers of different techs and most of them can be upgraded several times, and some unlock other techs, like chemistry gives you armours and such. It uses one kind of modification of this slot system, as every ship can carry certain amout of "plugins". Like destroyer can carry 300 tons, and each engine takes something like 10 tons, laser cannons 30 tons each, shield generator 40 tons each, and so on. This weight system is maybe more flexible than the slot system, although both are basically the same.

 

[Darwin420]

WOW! First, let me say, I am simply AMAZED at the response. And so many good ideas.

Okay, for those who are helping brainstorm, I have a request:

Since I think I'm going to go for Slot-based ships (although I might limit the number of different types of ships allowed at a time), I need ideas for different things to put in these slots. Ideas for NAMES and function. Don't worry about specific stats (I'll start sorting that out per tech level). That would be an immense help to me.

I like the F/I/C idea for systems. Already have some good ideas to make it into a workable system.

This will take a little bit of time, but once everything gets figured out, this is going to be one helluva NES.

 

[andis-1]

Since I think I'm going to go for Slot-based ships (although I might limit the number of different types of ships allowed at a time), I need ideas for different things to put in these slots. Ideas for NAMES and function. Don't worry about specific stats (I'll start sorting that out per tech level). That would be an immense help to me.

well try this one click here
A small list of space empires 4 technologies

 

[Erik Mesoy]

Kinetic missiles
Impact detonators

+ Missiles/projectiles

Um, WTH? The difference being?

Darwin420: If you want something a little more manageable, I strongly suggest StarNES by Global Nexus, and the very well-made tech tree from Master of Orion 1. Try Jon Sullivan for that.

Since I think I'm going to go for Slot-based ships (although I might limit the number of different types of ships allowed at a time), I need ideas for different things to put in these slots. Ideas for NAMES and function. Don't worry about specific stats (I'll start sorting that out per tech level). That would be an immense help to me.

As I said above, but now with better explanations!

Kinetic weaponry (strikes before missiles and plasma)
Exploding missiles (these do more damage)
Burst lasers (strikes before missiles and plasma)
Plasma cannons (these do more damage)

Hull plating (protects against kinetics and missiles)
Forcefield shielding (protects against lasers and plasma)

Power generators (each one powers N other slot items)

[Antimatter or Fusion] engines (each one consumes more power but increases speed and evasion, decreasing damage taken)
Tracking system (increases damage of all weapons by a percentage dependent on tech level)
Colony pod (should take up 2 slots) (contains ecodomes and stuff for colonizing)
Invasion module (takes up arbitrary amount of slots, carries military personnel)

Also, here are a lot of blueprints you can steal!! (Or just ask for permission )


And here's my idea of what spaceships should look like in the game:
I LOVE THIS PICTURE.

 

[Symphony D.]

I like how people ask for realistic tech and then go off on random and overly sophistiscated crap like forcefield generators to deflect energy weapons, when ablative armor is far easier to use, requires far less power, etc.

One word: Homeworld.

 

[Disenfrancised]

Ah but ablative armour would take up alot of mass, mass you have to move about in combat situations - forcefields (if you can make them for some reason will still probably be better).

Realism is good up to a point, but real life space warfare won't be as fun.

This is the realm of Millisecond firing arcs, microsecond prediction modelling, Gigajoules of energy focused and released in spaces no wider than a human hair, and instant, fiery annihilation. In short; this is where computers fight...

...and your duty is clear; to build and maintain those small robots...