Stigma against Communism?

[Mise]

Edit #2: Can anyone propose a method to meld Communism and Capitalism together so that we won't have any scathing arguments like this?

Pretty much every Western Democracy has elements of both, and arguements generally center around which elements of each should be included.

Regarding the inheritance issue:
I think that my Dad has the right to choose who his life savings go to after he dies. As a father, he does whatever he can to insure the best for his children, which means that he can give his child the best start in life by sending him to a private school, buying him books and private tutors, using his connections to get him into a good university, and then a good job after that. Any good father would do the same.

This is, however, not necessarily what's good for the economy. Clearly what's best for the economy is if everyone is given the best possible chance to succeed. To my mind, this represents a significant departure from the traditional Personal freedom => Economic success.

 

[Winner]

I'm a 16 y/o Communist living in California and when I tell this to other people they look at my like I am crazy. Do people really believe all that Cold War propaganda that was going around? Hasn't america learned its lesson with the Joe McCarthy fiasco that Commie bashing is just another witch hunt? You can read about it here: http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAmccarthy.htm

You can see all this crap that Americans believe about communism is just leftovers from the COld War. NONE OF IT IS TRUE. No communists don't want to burn everything down and kill everyone and force them to work for the govt (we already got George Bush to do that).

Why can't people accept our ideas as real and stop listening to that right wing propaganda that originated during the Cold War.


Oh and did you know, "Under GOd" was added to our pledhe of allegieance during the Cold War so Americans would appear "better" than the godless commies overseas?

Please reconsider your views on communism in this modern world.

Boy, you need to grow up. Communism doesn't have to be denigrated by Cold war propaganda, because the facts speak for themselves.

It is so easy for someone living in a country, which has never gone through a period of communist dictatorship, to believe in all that crap the communist say about themselves. My country has that unfortunate experience and I can tell you, that I'd rather die than see it here again.

 

[luiz]

Why? Whats the problem with everyone starting off on an equal footing and working for their money?

Well when somebody works his ass off during his life he usually wants to leave the fruits of his effort to his loved ones, and not respecting that will is indeed great injustice.

 

[luiz]

Like how they managed to raise Russia from a poor rural and wartorn economy to an industrial, agricultural and militaristic super power, despite their rather disturbing methods.

But I thought Russia wasn't "true" communism?

It's very funny. When we talk about industrialisation or space achievements, than the Soviet Union was marxism personified. When we talk about Gulags, widespread poverty and economic collpse, than the Soviet Union was "merely another corrupt dicatorship". Make up your minds, folks!

 

[Truronian]

Well when somebody works his ass off during his life he usually wants to leave the fruits of his effort to his loved ones, and not respecting that will is indeed great injustice.

Why?

There are far more important things that a person can give to their loved ones (such as love, wisdom, the knowledge to succeed) that don't give them a lifestyle they hasn't worked to achieve.

I'm playing devil's advocate to a certain extent here, in that I don't think such a system would work because people value their family's success over the sucess of society as a whole, but I do think it the only really fair form of welfare state.

 

[amadeus]

I'm a 16 y/o Communist living in California

You're 16 and from California. Normally, that just about wraps it up.

You can see all this crap that Americans believe about communism is just leftovers from the Cold War. NONE OF IT IS TRUE. No communists don't want to burn everything down and kill everyone and force them to work for the govt (we already got George Bush to do that).

Do you deny the fact that the USSR was a totalitarian state? During the Cold War, the Communist Party USA aligned itself with the Soviet Union (and only withdrew support when Gorbachev introduced reforms) and now today has an affinity for the CCP. Where will it end?

Oh and did you know, "Under God" was added to our pledhe of allegieance during the Cold War so Americans would appear "better" than the godless commies overseas?

Aside from the fact that we are better, the phrase "Under God" was added after a Presbyterian minister had given a sermon to President Eisenhower. Abraham Lincoln said at that same church in New York City that America was a nation "under God" and thus the genesis of the phrase. Some men might have supported it to oppose the Soviet Union, but it was not the reason the bill was initially introduced.

Communism only lost cause the USA had a better economy of the time,

As a result of America's (albeit restricted under FDR) free-market policies. The American system allowed input from the majority of Americans who were now purchasing homes, cars, appliances, and other luxuries. The bureaucratic nightmare of the Soviet economy focused all of their attention on building tanks and airplanes, leaving consumer goods (and ultimately quality of life standards) far behind.

they spent a huge ammount of money bribing people (Mashall plan) and countries into not accepting communism,

The devastating effects of World War II left much of Western Europe unable to regain their former economic strength and the Marshall Plan was simply a way for the U.S. to improve both the economic situation of Western Europe as well as the economic situation at home, as the loans and grants given to European nations at the time would boost the economies of Europe and increase demand for U.S. goods.

invading lawful countries (Korea, Vietnam, middle east, latin america), and supporting right wing dictators. Yeah sure, capitalism lost, in their evil ways.

Let's examine each one of these countries individually and the altneratives that they faced.

As for Korea, do you believe that the Korean people supported the Red ivnasion? If so, how come the U.S. and other foreign forces were welcomed in Korea to halt Kim Il Sung's advance?

Vietnam, did the Vietnamese people really support Ho Chi Minh and the Communists? They might have fought for independence from France, but how did this in any way reflect support for a Soviet-style dictatorship?

Where exactly in the Middle East are you speaking of? Are you talking about Israel? We supported Israel because they supported our interests in the Middle East. The same goes for Iran and Saudi Arabia.

Latin America was also under assault from the East European bloc. The USSR and allies didn't support democratic, peaceful, or non-violent solutions. The only way to counter their attempted subjugation of Latin American nations was to supply those friendly nations with the same supplies.

Did you know if the USSR wanted to they could have took over ALL OF EUROPE?!?!!??!?

Would that be before or after Moscow was destroyed in an atomic fireball? Before their "discovery" (theft) of the atomic bomb, I'd say that the USSR's capacity for making war in Europe was actually limited.

I read enough books about black people being beat up and killed and lynched and all that even after the civil rights movement that I do know for a fact that I don't want to go there (and I'm white).

Foolishness.

Everyone I know is scared of hell of being black and being dropped in the middle of the south cause you know by the end of the day you'd probably be killed for nothing.

It should occur to you that the people that you probably associate with are near identical to you in their thinking, so it shouldn't come as a surprise that you all have the same misconceptions of the southern U.S.

 

[Xanikk999]

You're 16 and from California. Normally, that just about wraps it up.


Do you deny the fact that the USSR was a totalitarian state? During the Cold War, the Communist Party USA aligned itself with the Soviet Union (and only withdrew support when Gorbachev introduced reforms) and now today has an affinity for the CCP. Where will it end?


Aside from the fact that we are better, the phrase "Under God" was added after a Presbyterian minister had given a sermon to President Eisenhower. Abraham Lincoln said at that same church in New York City that America was a nation "under God" and thus the genesis of the phrase. Some men might have supported it to oppose the Soviet Union, but it was not the reason the bill was initially introduced.


As a result of America's (albeit restricted under FDR) free-market policies. The American system allowed input from the majority of Americans who were now purchasing homes, cars, appliances, and other luxuries. The bureaucratic nightmare of the Soviet economy focused all of their attention on building tanks and airplanes, leaving consumer goods (and ultimately quality of life standards) far behind.


The devastating effects of World War II left much of Western Europe unable to regain their former economic strength and the Marshall Plan was simply a way for the U.S. to improve both the economic situation of Western Europe as well as the economic situation at home, as the loans and grants given to European nations at the time would boost the economies of Europe and increase demand for U.S. goods.


Let's examine each one of these countries individually and the altneratives that they faced.

As for Korea, do you believe that the Korean people supported the Red ivnasion? If so, how come the U.S. and other foreign forces were welcomed in Korea to halt Kim Il Sung's advance?

Vietnam, did the Vietnamese people really support Ho Chi Minh and the Communists? They might have fought for independence from France, but how did this in any way reflect support for a Soviet-style dictatorship?

Where exactly in the Middle East are you speaking of? Are you talking about Israel? We supported Israel because they supported our interests in the Middle East. The same goes for Iran and Saudi Arabia.

Latin America was also under assault from the East European bloc. The USSR and allies didn't support democratic, peaceful, or non-violent solutions. The only way to counter their attempted subjugation of Latin American nations was to supply those friendly nations with the same supplies.


Would that be before or after Moscow was destroyed in an atomic fireball? Before their "discovery" (theft) of the atomic bomb, I'd say that the USSR's capacity for making war in Europe was actually limited.


Foolishness.


It should occur to you that the people that you probably associate with are near identical to you in their thinking, so it shouldn't come as a surprise that you all have the same misconceptions of the southern U.S.

I usually dont say this. But you "PWNED" (aka owned) him!

 

[Elrohir]

I'm a 16 y/o Communist living in California and when I tell this to other people they look at my like I am crazy. Do people really believe all that Cold War propaganda that was going around? Hasn't america learned its lesson with the Joe McCarthy fiasco that Commie bashing is just another witch hunt? You can read about it here: http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAmccarthy.htm

You can see all this crap that Americans believe about communism is just leftovers from the COld War. NONE OF IT IS TRUE. No communists don't want to burn everything down and kill everyone and force them to work for the govt (we already got George Bush to do that).

Why can't people accept our ideas as real and stop listening to that right wing propaganda that originated during the Cold War.


Oh and did you know, "Under GOd" was added to our pledhe of allegieance during the Cold War so Americans would appear "better" than the godless commies overseas?

Please reconsider your views on communism in this modern world.

Perhaps it's the 100 million humans that have died because of communist dictators the world over in the past century that has given communism a bad stigma. Ever think of that before spouting off your Marxist propaganda? You're so ignorant of actual history, it's scary. Read a real book about the Soviet Union and the other communist states that have done little more than slaughter than own people and ruin their own economies. (IE, Vietnam, North Korea, China up until recently) Then get back to me on the glories of communism.

And try growing up a little too; maybe then you won't stick up for an ideology that has killed more people than any other.

 

[Yeeek]

Perhaps it's the 100 million humans that have died because of communist dictators the world over in the past century that has given communism a bad stigma.

I think you hit the nail on the head.. No matter what communist may say, it just leave a bad taste, don't you think?

 

[Elrohir]

Indeed. No prattering about a future utopia or the goodness of the human heart changes the fact that when those communist ideals were put to the test, they were used to slaughter people by the millions. Communism simply does not work, unless your idea of a good government is one that kills innocents by the tens of millions and sends millions more to prison camps.

 

[blackheart]

Indeed. No prattering about a future utopia or the goodness of the human heart changes the fact that when those communist ideals were put to the test, they were used to slaughter people by the millions. Communism simply does not work, unless your idea of a good government is one that kills innocents by the tens of millions and sends millions more to prison camps.

Ah the wonderful hypocrisy that surrounds the idea of human utopia. Maybe if an AI did it it would work?

 

[luiz]

Why?

There are far more important things that a person can give to their loved ones (such as love, wisdom, the knowledge to succeed) that don't give them a lifestyle they hasn't worked to achieve.

I'm playing devil's advocate to a certain extent here, in that I don't think such a system would work because people value their family's success over the sucess of society as a whole, but I do think it the only really fair form of welfare state.

Do I really need to explain?
When people make money it is usually not just about themselves, they also want to give their loved ones a better starting point than they had. Any father who do not see things that way is a bad one.

 

[Princeps]

But I thought Russia wasn't "true" communism?

I was refering to the communists themselves, how they managed to transform Russia. Or I intented to. After WW2, I think, Soveit union was quite a thriving political entity, but later declined and collapsed due to stagnation, corruption and disorder.

 

[Yuri2356]

Would that be before or after Moscow was destroyed in an atomic fireball? Before their "discovery" (theft) of the atomic bomb, I'd say that the USSR's capacity for making war in Europe was actually limited.

While the Soviet's atomic weapons program was greatly aided by espionage, I've been taught that it was estimated that the USSR would have a working bomb by '54, and that their spy efforts accelerated the project by five years. (Mostly by gathering certain key figures that would have taken months of testing to derive)

If I'm incorrect on this, feel free to inform.

 

[amadeus]

While the Soviet's atomic weapons program was greatly aided by espionage, I've been taught that it was estimated that the USSR would have a working bomb by '54, and that their spy efforts accelerated the project by five years. (Mostly by gathering certain key figures that would have taken months of testing to derive)

If I'm incorrect on this, feel free to inform.

I don't deny at all that they'd develop eventually the atomic bomb, I'm just saying that there was the gap in the mid-to-late 1940s when the Russians hadn't built any or tested any of these weapons yet.

 

[colontos]

Funny thread.

I was gonna add my $.02, but it seems like its been taken care of. For the OPer's information, I was a communist/anarchist when I was 16 too. Then, I grew up. The OPer will too, I hope, unlike a few 40-somethings on the board.

 

[Yuri2356]

I don't deny at all that they'd develop eventually the atomic bomb, I'm just saying that there was the gap in the mid-to-late 1940s when the Russians hadn't built any or tested any of these weapons yet.

Allright then. The you phrased it almost made it sound as if you were the sort of person who'd claim that the Soviets only ended up with the bomb because traitors handed them the plans.

Good to know we're on the same page there.

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

I'm a 16 y/o Communist living in California and when I tell this to other people they look at my like I am crazy. Do people really believe all that Cold War propaganda that was going around? Hasn't america learned its lesson with the Joe McCarthy fiasco that Commie bashing is just another witch hunt? You can read about it here: http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAmccarthy.htm

You can see all this crap that Americans believe about communism is just leftovers from the COld War. NONE OF IT IS TRUE. No communists don't want to burn everything down and kill everyone and force them to work for the govt (we already got George Bush to do that).

Why can't people accept our ideas as real and stop listening to that right wing propaganda that originated during the Cold War.


Oh and did you know, "Under GOd" was added to our pledhe of allegieance during the Cold War so Americans would appear "better" than the godless commies overseas?

Please reconsider your views on communism in this modern world.

You can blame the USSR for causing the stigma against communism. Communism was a convenient tool to fabricate another kind of totalitarian state.

 

[Atlas14]

Ironic how the thread was titled Stigma against Communism when the most the thread starter sputtered out was stigma against the South

I've talked to many a commie online and they for the most part are intelligent people, but stubborn and absolutely refuse to face facts that oppose their beliefs. But yeah communism requires too much forced cooperation and is pretty much never going to work out perfectly. Those who are proponents of communism either live in countries where they are oppressed, and simply are not aware that liberalism works much better, or they are people that lack self-motivation and a sense of purpose and stick up for others of their kind in a unified ideological struggle.

 

[usarmy18]

okay look, maybe what I said was wrong. I know many of the south are racist (like 40% voted democrats or something), but that doesn't mean they are NOT racist. Everyone I know is scared of hell of being black and being dropped in the middle of the south cause you know by the end of the day you'd probably be killed for nothing. It's like a survival game were going to do DND with, aka your party is four black men who get teleported into the deep south and your goal is travelling up north while the whole population is trying to kill ya.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Man, this is freakin hilarious. You just posted in another of your little spam threads that only the idiots supported Bush. Jesus freakin Christ, if you're an example of the intelligent left then I'm glad I support Bush. I don't think I've ever read someone post something so blind, ********, and stupid. Geez man, keep this up. I'm laughing so hard there are tears in my eyes.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

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