Strong words for Israel

[G-Man]

If they refuse to have peace

And what if we don't refuse to have peace while the other side refuses negotiations, not to mention turning down every offer they were ever given?

and keep taking property from others, then the only result in the long run is all Israelis dead. You see, the difference is that if we took Alberta, we wouldn't expel the population. We would incorporate them into the US. What they are doing is expelling people from the homes their families have inhabited for centuries.

I just don't know what you're talking about. Israel doesn't expell anyone as a policy. The closest thing is ground that's being nationalized for national projects (roads, etc), like any other country does and with the people being compensated. And Arab Israelis are equal citizens in Israel.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Palestinians are likely a mix of many peoples. What I said may have been an exaggeration, but I'd be surprised if there wasn't at least a little Idumean ancestry among them. There has certainly been a large influx of Arabs from elsewhere, but those probably interbred with natives. The bible itself does say that, when Jacob was sent to seek wives from among his mother's relatives in Chaldea, Esau took additional wives from among the descendants of Ishmael.

There have been genetic studies comparing modern Palestinians and Lebanese to skeletons found in ancient Canaanite and Phoenician ruins which found no significant difference.

13And behold,(A) the LORD stood above it[a] and said,(B) "I am the LORD, the God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac.(C) The land on which you lie I will give to you and to your offspring.

The verse you mentioned affirms that God promised some land to Jacob too, but does not state that he promised all the land from the Nile to the Euphrates as was his grandfather.

If we follow the Law of Moses when it comes to inheritance, then sons should divide up their father's land evenly but with the eldest son getting a double portion. Jacob stole his twin Esau's birthright, so he would have been entitled to twice the land given to Isaac. Isaac would have been entitled only to 1/3 of the land promised to Abraham, as the law makes clear that the first born son is to get the double portion even if he was the son of a hated slave girl and a younger son the son of a beloved wife. This would seem to say that Israel deserves only 2/9 of the land promised to Abraham, while the rest goes to Abraham's other descendants. without actually looking up the land area of each county in the middle east and doing calculations, I get the impression that Israel (including the West Bank) probably is about that 2/9 of the promised land.

 

[G-Man]

Palestinians are likely a mix of many peoples. What I said may have been an exaggeration, but I'd be surprised if there wasn't at least a little Idumean ancestry among them. There has certainly been a large influx of Arabs from elsewhere, but those probably interbred with natives.

There might be a hint of Idumean ancestry - AFAIK, no one knows exactly what happened to the people of Edom, although I don't think they were ever mentioned in Arab texts talking about the period where Arabs first came to this land.

The bible itself does say that, when Jacob was sent to seek wives from among his mother's relatives in Chaldea, Esau took additional wives from among the descendants of Ishmael.

So? The passage I referenced talks about Jacob, not Esau.

There have been genetic studies comparing modern Palestinians and Lebanese to skeletons found in ancient Canaanite and Phoenician ruins which found no significant difference.

I think the academic community is very strongly against the idea of the Palestinians being the decendants of bibilical nationalities. This idea has no historical base and was created by modern Palestinians in the second half of the 20th century.

The verse you mentioned affirms that God promised some land to Jacob too, but does not state that he promised all the land from the Nile to the Euphrates as was his grandfather.

If we follow the Law of Moses when it comes to inheritance, then sons should divide up their father's land evenly but with the eldest son getting a double portion. Jacob stole his twin Esau's birthright, so he would have been entitled to twice the land given to Isaac. Isaac would have been entitled only to 1/3 of the land promised to Abraham, as the law makes clear that the first born son is to get the double portion even if he was the son of a hated slave girl and a younger son the son of a beloved wife. This would seem to say that Israel deserves only 2/9 of the land promised to Abraham, while the rest goes to Abraham's other descendants. without actually looking up the land area of each county in the middle east and doing calculations, I get the impression that Israel (including the West Bank) probably is about that 2/9 of the promised land.

Actually, the promise talking about the specific borders came much later, in exodus 23:31, and when refering to the other people living in this land said that they should be driven out of the land.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Jews want a Jewish country, Palestinians want a Palestinian country.

And what about the 16% of the current population who just happen to be Muslim? Do you think they want to live in "Jewish country" as well? Or don't you really care about their interests any more than you care about the Palestinians, or any other Muslims for that matter?

 

[G-Man]

And what about the 16% of the current population who just happen to be Muslim? Do you think they want to live in "Jewish country" as well? Or don't you really care about their interests any more than you care about the Palestinians, or any other Muslims for that matter?

They are equal citizens of Israel, and as such have the same rights as its Jewish citizens. And they are a minority, like there are minorities in most countries, and as such don't relate to many of the country's cultural aspects - but that's no different from Jews and Muslims who live in European countries or in the US. The get full and equal citizenship, but it doesn't mean that they relate to many of the holidays (such as christmas), to latin languages or to other national symbols (like the crosses that appear in many national flags).
The only major difference is that Israeli Arabs have the benefit of not having forced conscription (like Jews do) and they have a certain degree of autonomy in cultural issues (Arabic speaking schools, etc).

 

[Formaldehyde]

In other words, they really don't care for living in a largely hateful theocracy any more than anybody else would? Especially a country which is so paranoid that they may eventually be outnumbered that most of them are more than willing to no longer be a democracy to overcome that "threat"?

 

[G-Man]

In other words, they really don't care for living in a largely hateful theocracy any more than anybody else would? Especially a country which is so paranoid that they may eventually be outnumbered, that most of them are more than willing to no longer be a democracy to overcome that "threat"?

You're again losing touch with reality. Israel is a secular country, and Arab Israelis are full and equal citizens. Their status is no different from that of minorities in other democracies, and in many ways even better in the sense that they get autonomy in many areas, Arabic as an official language, no mendatory military service, etc.

 

[REDY]

no mendatory military service, etc.

Such right should be explained in many ways. Maybe you just dont trust them much. I have historical analogy from my country, you surely know which one.

 

[Formaldehyde]

"Again losing touch with reality?"

Spoiler :

Should these predictions come true, their effect on our ability to preserve the Jewish nature of this democratic state will be catastrophic. Although most of the Muslim Arab minority is committed to the state of Israel and its laws, it rejects its Zionist Jewish character. Moreover, their nationalist identification is with the Arab people and the Palestinian nation, and they hold Israel to blame for creating the Palestinian problem. The day may not be far off when the Arab sector will have the sheer numbers to tip the scales and turn us into a bi-national state with an Arab majority. As Abraham Lincoln once said, “the ballot is stronger than the bullet.”

There is no simple way of dealing with this problem. A solution will require a national effort and involvement of Jewish leadership from around the world aimed at encouraging massive Jewish aliya – immigration – and the creation of a suitable infrastructure for absorbing the newcomers. According to statistics, immigration today adds about 1% to the annual growth of the Jewish population in Israel. Compared to the statistics above, this figure is insufficient for meeting the challenge of a changing demographic balance.

What is required is maximal utilization of resources to increase aliya.

Other steps could be taken as well: encouraging higher birth rates in the Jewish sector, increasing state support for Jewish settlement and coexistence in densely populated Arab areas within the Green Line, and even weighing the possibility of legislating laws limiting the influence of representatives of the Arab sector on issues essential to the existence of the state of Israel and preservation of its Jewish nature.

The challenge facing us is to find a solution to the demographic problem while upholding the democratic principles upon which the state was founded. At the same time, it is important to remember that Israel's existence as a home for Jews from all over the world depends on preserving its Jewish character. In the era of nation-states, it is clear that the Jewish people and culture will not survive without the State of Israel. As Jabotinsky once said: " "The crux of the problem remains the same old one: Jewish majority or Arab majority. For the Jews to agree to a minority statues under the aegis of a bi-national regime would be suicidal".

http://www.blogsofzion.com/blog/?p=72

Spoiler :

It is important to note that the statistics listed below only include those with Israeli citizenship - and as such, these statistics are not referring to the “Palestinian” demographic threat, where one can (mistakenly) argue that Israel, by withdrawing from Judea and Samaria could attempt to solve the problem. The statistics below indicate that within the “Green Line” Israel is facing a serious demographic threat, whereby if Israel is to remain a Jewish State, she must be willing to face-up to some difficult questions:

1) Would Israel, in order to maintain its Jewish majority as well as “democratic” character, be willing to “Disengage” from the Galil, Negev and Eastern Jerusalem, all areas with significant Israeli Arab populations (and all within the “Green Line&#8221?

2) Would Israel, in order to remain a Jewish State, be willing to limit the scope of its “democratic” character and principles towards non-Jews in Israel, in order to ensure not only a Jewish majority in Israel, but a Jewish character, that would be reflected in her policies and culture?

If the State of Israel (as a Jewish State) decides to do nothing, it is only a matter of time before she will cease to exist as a Jewish State and becomes a bi-national state of its citizens. This bi-national state will be free to rename itself Palestine, change the Law of Return to apply to Arabs and not Jews, and change national anthem from Hatikva to something more representative of this new state.

The time has long since passed for Israel and the Jewish People to face up to the true demographic threat facing the Jewish State of Israel, namely the ever increasing Israeli-Arab population, and begin to address this issue in a serious manner. We must once and for all determine our answers to the following questions:

What role does the State of Israel play in the lives of the Jewish People? Is it imperative that Israel remain a Jewish State? If so, what are we willing to do to ensure that it remains one?

I include the Jewish People in this equation, because no Jew who cares about Israel remaining a Jewish State should be able to claim ignorance on this point. If Israel is to remain a Jewish State, then it requires Jewish bodies and lots of Jewish babies (aside from any other steps the State of Israel may feel compelled to take on this matter). By choosing to remain living outside of Israel, those Jews are showing where Israel stands on their list of priorities, and as such, will be required to live with any actions that the State of Israel ultimately takes in order to save itself from this grave threat.

While there may be a difference of opinion as to the actions that the State of Israel should take, there is no question that if Israel is to remain a Jewish State, that the time to act is now - if only we will find the courage to do so.

There are indeed many Jews in Israel who would be more than willing to abandon a democratic form of government if they are eventually "outnumbered". They are already making extensive plans to do so if they can't stop the Muslim growth rate or increase the Jewish one.

 

[G-Man]

Such right should be explained in many ways. Maybe you just dont trust them much. I have historical analogy from my country, you surely know which.

First, regardless of the reason, it still makes their situation better. Second, there's also the alternative of a civilian national service which is also not mendatory for them and it certainly isn't about trust issues. And third, Arabs are allowed to volunteer to military or national service, but very few of them do (a few dozens a year go to the military IIRC, a bit more go to civilian national service). Also, the main opposition for such a mendatory service (even a civilian service) comes from the Arabs themselves, so it's pretty obvious they prefer it this way.

 

[G-Man]

"Again losing touch with reality?"

There are indeed many Jews in Israel who would be more than willing to abandon a democratic form of government if they are eventually "outnumbered". They are already making extensive plans to do so.

1. I was refering to you defining Israel as a "theocracy".
2. This isn't much more connected to the real world.... You claim that "many Jews in Israel" support this view and are "making extensive plans". Yet all you have here is one person speaking of theoretical actions which even she says are "not simple" and which are clearly illegal under Israeli basic laws. Yeah, it's just around the corner....
3. The tension between democratic values and national identity is one shared by most democracies. And demographics are a big part of it - again, not only in Israel, but in most democracies.


Edit: I see you edited in a second person supporting a similar view. Seeing as Israel has a population of 7 million, I'd say that in order for it to qualify as "many" you'd have to show the support of, at the very least, 1%, which translates to 70,000 people. Only 69,998 more to go!

 

[Formaldehyde]

1. I was refering to you defining Israel as a "theocracy".

You were the one who called it a "Jewish country". That certainly sounds like a theocracy to me.

2. This isn't much more connected to the real world.... You claim that "many Jews in Israel" support this view and are "making extensive plans".

There are lots of similar comments out there. Are you trying to claim the likely possiblity that Jews eventually becoming a minority in Israel doesn't bother a significant percentage of the population? That they are already wondering how they should deal with it? That a dictatorship or a pseudo-democracy where only Jews had the right to vote on certain issues may very well happen someday if the Jews do become a minority?

3. The tension between democratic values and national identity is one shared by most democracies. And demographics are a big part of it - again, not only in Israel, but in most democracies.

Are there a number of bigots in the US who don't want to see the country become "another Mexico"? You betcha!

Israel has become a farce of a democracy that really only cares about the rights of Jews. And it is only getting worse with time.

According to a Central Bureau of Statistics report based on figures from 2002, 24 percent of Israelis younger than 16 are Muslim. Seventy-one percent are Jewish, while the rest are from other Arab sectors or are unaffiliated, the bureau said.

"The annual average growth rate of the Muslim population in Israel in recent years is 2.4 times higher than that of the Jewish population, 3.4 percent, as opposed to 1.4 percent," the report said, citing a record high birth rate among Arab Muslims.

Data suggesting a population boom among Israeli Arabs, who now make up 18 percent of the 6.6 million population, have set off alarm bells in a government keen to see the Jewish majority, with its electoral clout, remain unchallenged.

Finance Minister Benjamin Netanyahu sparked a furor in December by calling Israeli Arabs a worse "demographic problem" than the Palestinians.

Adding to Israeli worries over the population balance are the 3.6 million Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip. Many of the latter favor abandoning the uprising, more than three years old, and demanding full, equal citizenship.

To explain the differences in population growth, the bureau cited the 20 percent incidence of single-parent families among Israeli Jews in contrast with the more strictly traditional Muslim community, which, it said, encourages child-bearing.

Perhaps you have heard of this "Benjamin Netanyahu"?

 

[Karalysia]

I say we tell Israel and Palestine to work this out or else...then when they ignore us, we cut of all aid to them I mean all aid not just military but humanitarian also, and they can fend for themsevles. I bet they'll come to an agreement quick proper.

 

[The Imp]

You do realize that what Israel did was completely in line with its policy of not freezing construction in Jerusalem (which the American administration obviously knew about) and that for months now Israel requests peace talks while the Palestinians refuse?

Please... the Israeli's are not budging on anything. Any appeals of negotiation are hollow from the Israeli side unless they show they are truly willing to negotiate, unless they show they are at least willing to give up something they value. What good is an appeal to negotiation when you are willing to give up nothing of value?

This is what happens, the Israeli's unilaterally halt construction for a little while, evicts some settlers, then ramp up production and settlement in a more advantageous location. Lather, rinse, repeat. They sacrifice the small economically impoverished Gaza Strip for the relatively larger West Bank, along with East Jerusalem. They are simply buying themselves time to completely entrench themselves inside the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

 

[G-Man]

You were the one who called it a "Jewish country". That certainly sounds like a theocracy to me.

Israel is the country of the Jewish people. No different from France being the country of the French people or Spain being the country of the Spanish people.

There are lots of similar comments out there. Are you trying to claim the likely possiblity that Jews eventually becoming a minority in Israel doesn't bother a significant percentage of the population? That they are already wondering how they should deal with it? That a dictatorship or a pseudo-democracy where only Jews had the right to vote on certain issues may very well happen someday if the Jews do become a minority?

This possibility isn't very likely in the next few decades (Arab birth rates greatly decreased in the last two decades), it bothers the Jewish public (like it bothers the publics of any other nation) and yet I don't see it causing Israel to stop being a democracy.

Are there a number of bigots in the US who don't want to see the country become "another Mexico"? You betcha!

Israel has become a farce of a democracy that really only cares about the rights of Jews. And it is only getting worse with time.

Again, I don't understand what you're talking about. Muslims are equal citizens and have the exact same rights as Jews.

Perhaps you have heard of this "Benjamin Netanyahu"?

So? The fact that he says there's a demographic problem doesn't mean he thinks non-democratic measures can be used against it.

 

[G-Man]

Please... the Israeli's are not budging on anything. Any appeals of negotiation are hollow from the Israeli side unless they show they are truly willing to negotiate, unless they show they are at least willing to give up something they value. What good is an appeal to negotiation when you are willing to give up nothing of value?

So far in the peace process the only side giving anything was Israel, while the Palestinians gave nothing. And Israel has made several offers which would give the Palestinians over 95% of the west bank. If that's not enough for them I really don't know what agreement can possibly be made.

This is what happens, the Israeli's unilaterally halt construction for a little while, evicts some settlers, then ramp up production and settlement in a more advantageous location. Lather, rinse, repeat. They sacrifice the small economically impoverished Gaza Strip for the relatively larger West Bank, along with East Jerusalem. They are simply buying themselves time to completely entrench themselves inside the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

So Israel is buying time by wanting to negotiate while the Palestinians refuse and by not building any new settlments for a decade while halting construction for months now? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense....

 

[Tee Kay]

So Israel is buying time by wanting to negotiate while the Palestinians refuse and by not building any new settlments for a decade while halting construction for months now? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense....

Where did you get this from? Israeli colonist populations have increased very significantly over the last decade.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Israel is placing itself in a trap with all these West Bank settlements. Dunno about all that "right of return" stuff, looks like it'd be better of dead, but Palestinian concerns over erosion of their existing territories is legitimate. My stance on the issue is that by allowing Israeli settlements to exist in West Bank and expanding them, but not allowing Palestinian migration to Israel proper, Israel brings on itself a moral obligation to give its citizenship to West Bank Palestinians. Allowing settlements without citizenship rights for local population is either hypocritical or almost colonialist.

 

[Verbose]

So far in the peace process the only side giving anything was Israel, while the Palestinians gave nothing. And Israel has made several offers which would give the Palestinians over 95% of the west bank. If that's not enough for them I really don't know what agreement can possibly be made.

From the Palestinian side it's not about "giving" but about "returning", and then seeing what constitutes acceptable loss.

Apparently the way Israel has been going about things for ages has been a failure. Get over it, and get it right. If peace is actually desired that is.

What the problem looks like from the outside is of course that the Israelis seem to have lost the ability to put themselves inside the heads of their Palestinian opposite numbers. It used to be very good at it. Apprently no more.

The present Israeli govt is also off with regards to the rest of the world. It has expressed regret over the timing of decalring the new settlements plans to coincide with the US VP's visit. The problem is that from the pov of the rest of the world, the current US admin included, the timing is irrelevant, since it's just an atrociously bad decision, period.

And apprently large sections of Israeli public and political awareness is also off kelter, since a return to the 1967 borders - pretty much completely consensually the right thing to do everywhere else - is somehow an extremist position.

 

[REDY]

First, regardless of the reason, it still makes their situation better. Second, there's also the alternative of a civilian national service which is also not mendatory for them and it certainly isn't about trust issues. And third, Arabs are allowed to volunteer to military or national service, but very few of them do (a few dozens a year go to the military IIRC, a bit more go to civilian national service). Also, the main opposition for such a mendatory service (even a civilian service) comes from the Arabs themselves, so it's pretty obvious they prefer it this way.

All right.