Strong words for Israel

[G-Man]

Can the Palestinians decide what to build on their own land

Yes. There are a lot of Palestinian building project right now, the most extensive one being a new city north of Ramallah, but also plenty of new projects in existing Palestinian cities.

The 1967 borders are Israel's universally recognised borders.

That's innacurate. The 1967 borders are Israel's internationally recognized territory. Israel doesn't have a border with the west bank because according to international agreements (most important of whom are the Oslo accords and the Israel-Jordan peace treaty) its status is to be decided in negotiations between Israel and the PA.

 

[RedRalph]

Thats an extreme extension of VRCW's logic but the Russians have kept Kalingrad.

It's not an extreme version of his logic, it's identical logic.

 

[Silurian]

G-man@

Are you sure they can

Last update - 05:06 16/12/2009


UN: Much of West Bank closed to Palestinian building

By Amira Hass

Tags: United Nations, Israel News





Israel effectively allows Palestinians to build in only 1 percent of Area C, the 60 percent of the West Bank over which it retains full control, according to a new report by the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs.

The report also said that so far this year Israel has demolished 180 Palestinian structures in Area C. As a result, 319 Palestinians, including 167 children, have lost their homes.

Among the destroyed structures were 56 residential buildings, including tents and tin shacks; 70 animal shelters; 21 traditional outdoor taboun ovens; seven water pools, or uncovered cisterns; and two partially built cisterns.
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The report stated that due to the severe Israeli restrictions, Palestinians have no choice but to build without permits. In 70 percent of Area C (44 percent of the West Bank), Palestinian building is entirely forbidden, as this land is earmarked for the settlements, the army, nature reserves or a buffer zone around the separation fence. In the remaining 30 percent, construction is theoretically possible, but getting a permit is so difficult as to be practically impossible. Hence effectively, Palestinians can build freely on only 1 percent of Area C - most of which is already totally built over.

 

[HannibalBarka]

So let's see here. Israel gets attacked and kicks the crap out of everyone who attacked them, expanding their borders in the process. Oops, my bad, we didn't mean to attack, can we have our land back pretty please?

I think a couple of powers in this map deserve to have their land back too...

Spoiler :

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/europe_1911.jpg

You attack, you lose, you lose rights to land lost.

No you don't. War does not give you the right to expell civilians or not let them get back to tjeir homes once the fight is over.
Israel make a fuss every now and than about "respecting civilians" and every now and than blame the Palestinians because of their unlawful ways of waging wars when at its very begining and since than Israel is de facto waging war against civilians. Expelling thousands of civilians or not letting them get back to their homes, looting said homes is a crimes and doing so is in no way legal.

And as noted above, Israel do not want to annex the land and do not want to leave it neither!!!!! it wants the land without the people, just like Hamas

 

[Quackers]

It's not an extreme version of his logic, it's identical logic.

Obviously

Your pushing it to the limit though it's bursting at the seams.

 

[RedRalph]

Obviously

Your pushing it to the limit though it's bursting at the seams.

Logic doesn't work that way. It's either logic or it isn't, regardless of how far you take it. It shows how patently ridiculous his argument is.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

It could be fuzzy logic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzy_logic

 

[G-Man]

G-man@

Are you sure they can

I'm sure. Note that this report talks about area C, not about Palestinian controlled areas.

 

[Silurian]

Do the Palestinians in area C vote in Israeli elections

 

[Bill3000]

/me snorts. Once it was a sovereign nation...

I guarantee you, if Canada ever attacks us, we're keeping Alberta.

pft, you and your wars for oil

 

[G-Man]

Do the Palestinians in area C vote in Israeli elections

You answer yourself - they're Palestinians, therefore they vote in the Palestinian elections.

 

[Silurian]

21 traditional outdoor taboun ovens

were destroyed

Why is it forbidden to build ovens in area C

 

[G-Man]

were destroyed

Why is it forbidden to build ovens in area C

It isn't. In area C, like in Israel proper and like in most countries, it's illegal to build any structure without permission.

 

[Silurian]

Tabun is a clay bread oven in the form of a small iglo or hut, wide on the bottom (c. 60 cm and wider) and on the top varying from a small hole to a wide one (c. 40 cm) and about 45 cm high. There is a small opening at the base for fuel, however fuel can also be placed from the top opening. Sometimes the tabun is partly dug into the floor. The type of fuel is the same as with a Tannur, dependable of what is growing in the area. The baked bread is in a small « pancake » form (c. 20 cm in diameter) thicker than at the Tannur. The dow is placed on the inside and at a small Tabun on the outside or even on the bottom. When the bread is done cooking is possible on the opening at the top of the oven.

In most countries, it's legal to build such small structures without having to seek permission

 

[Verbose]

The real problem rather seems that the Palestinians in those parts may enjoy all kinds of right in principle, but have trouble using them in practice...

http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/2F8FB6437DB17CA5852575A9004D7CB4

 

[G-Man]

In most countries, it's legal to build such small structures without having to seek permission

These ovens can be several meters high. If such a tower of bricks falls on someone it could easily kill him. And building regulations are aimed at stopping exactly that.

The real problem rather seems that the Palestinians in those parts may enjoy all kinds of right in principle, but have trouble using them in practice...

http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/2F8FB6437DB17CA5852575A9004D7CB4

It's a bit hard to argue with a report that doesn't show what data it's based upon (it just says that contruction permits are "insufficient"), but I would like to point out a few important facts:
- The facts that do appear on this report show that Israel is far from taking advantage of this situation, demolishing only a small precentage of the illegal buildings. In most other countries they'd all be destroyed right away.
- The report tries to claim that Israel doesn't give Palestinians building permits while granting them to Jews. That's just not possible - Israel grants building permits to buildings, and Palestinians have the right to buy this property just as much as Jews do.
- In places where, despite their houses being built illegaly, the Palestinians refuse a settlment that'll allow them to live in legal and properly contructed houses when offered one by the Israeli goverment (with Silwan being the latest example).
- In the case of Shiekh Jarrah, also mentioned, the Palestinians have not only built their houses illegaly, but they've built them on land which they don't own. Blaming the state of Israel for what is a civil case is just pointless - it's not how a legal system works.

 

[Silurian]

G-man@

These ovens can be several meters high. If such a tower of bricks falls on someone it could easily kill him. And building regulations are aimed at stopping exactly that

Is death by oven common in Israel as well as the West Bank

 

[Silurian]

G-man@

It isn't. In area C, like in Israel proper

When is Israel going to annex area C

 

[HannibalBarka]

G-Man is not happy with the "new historians" version of the history of Israel and the zionist project in general, and specifically the 1948 War. I am not surprised as this version basically sent to the trash the official propaganda that was and is still taught in Israel. So G-Man wanted the story told by the people who lived it. no worries; here is what Uri Avnery said about the 1948 War, a war he took part in directly:

http://meretzusa.blogspot.com/2008/05/uri-avnerys-view-of-1948.html

Few highlights: that's for the "our friends did not help us", Uncle Joe himself took the lead:

From April 1948 on, we (Israel) started to receive large quantities of light weapons from Czechoslovakia, which were sent to us on Stalin's orders.


In that case, when was the start of the "ethnic cleansing" you spoke about?

In the second half of the war, after the advance of the Arab armies was halted, a deliberate policy of expelling the Arabs became a war aim on its own.

For truth's sake, it must be remembered that this was not one-sided. Not many Arabs remained in the territories that were conquered by our side, but, also, no Jew remained in the territories that were conquered by the Arabs, such as the Etzion Bloc kibbutzim and the Jewish Quarter in the Old City of Jerusalem. The Jewish inhabitants were killed or expelled. The difference was quantitative: while the Jewish side conquered large stretches of land, the Arab side succeeded only in conquering small areas.

The real decision was taken after the war: not to allow the 750 thousand Arab refugees to return to their homes.


Throughout the war I wrote up my experiences. My reports appeared in the newspapers at the time and were later collected in a book entitled "In the Fields of the Philistines, 1948" (which will soon appear in English). The military censors did not allow me to dwell on the negative sides, so immediately after the war I wrote a second book called "The Other Side of the Coin", disguised as a literary work, so I did not have to submit it to censorship. There I reported, inter alia, that we had received orders to kill every Arab who tried to return home.

 

[Verbose]

It's a bit hard to argue with a report that doesn't show what data it's based upon (it just says that contruction permits are "insufficient"), but I would like to point out a few important facts:
- The facts that do appear on this report show that Israel is far from taking advantage of this situation, demolishing only a small precentage of the illegal buildings. In most other countries they'd all be destroyed right away.
- The report tries to claim that Israel doesn't give Palestinians building permits while granting them to Jews. That's just not possible - Israel grants building permits to buildings, and Palestinians have the right to buy this property just as much as Jews do.
- In places where, despite their houses being built illegaly, the Palestinians refuse a settlment that'll allow them to live in legal and properly contructed houses when offered one by the Israeli goverment (with Silwan being the latest example).
- In the case of Shiekh Jarrah, also mentioned, the Palestinians have not only built their houses illegaly, but they've built them on land which they don't own. Blaming the state of Israel for what is a civil case is just pointless - it's not how a legal system works.

Except it doesn't work for the Palestinians. Israel simply isn't catering to the needs of that community. Should it? Not if it's a clear case of "us" and "them", and the Palestinians are "them". i.e. aliens, outsiders. Which otoh means Palestinians are not fine and dandy in Israel.

If it's not a matter of Israel implicitly dealing with the situation in terms of "us" and "them", well them the Israeli authorities are simply incompetent. The problem seemingly of course then that the Jewish community in the same place really doesn't seem to experience the same problems?