[BTS] Stumbling back at Deity

[Fippy]

So sure here that we'd have a 10 pages long discussion about Music in sgotm
Forgot about it and yup i agree it's low risk if going for MT later anyways.

 

[Pangaea]

Haha, SGOTM is crazy

 

[Pangaea]

As it is announced, it should be Macemen against archers/axes/swords.

Your empire looks in very good shape, and there is something to be said for a lean state that can tech fast. Usually it means a lower tech rate (beakers), but not here due to such a good Buro capital, which you already have triggered I see. Very solid to be working on Edu already well before 1AD. I'm surprised Stalin doesn't even have Monarchy yet. WTH. Usually the whole pack has or is close to Feudalism at this point, like in my game. Stalin especially look like a total caveman, while Saladin is kinda skewed. Lacking some basics, but got other techs on you. I suppose you have beelined HARD, and not traded much? On that note, do you think I made mistakes with the trades mentioned? And outright gifts? (for diplo)

Will be interesting to read how your war goes. If you can get started in the not-too-distant future, and get Stalin with archers and axes, he'll stand no chance at all. No crossbows nor longbows by 1AD is quite amazing. He's got a whopping 11 cities too, so what the hell has he been up to?

Did you steal Isabella's marble btw, or wasn't there a chance for that in your game?

 

[Pangaea]

Gosh, this game.... I played a bit further. Didn't quite make it to 1AD, and now I really have to stop.

Spoiler :

The good news: I beat Wang to Music!

Spoiler :

He revolted to Vassalage, so lost a turn there, but it's possible I would have beaten him with a turn anyway.

Unfortunately I've kinda strayed into middle-finger diplomacy here, or at least middle-finger trading. Felt like I had little choice. Gave Metal Casting to Gilgamesh for Construction. Traded several times with Mansa too, and sold Literature for a decent chunk of gold. Did end up self-teching Masonry+Mono as advertised, but never had time to go OR as I planned for whips. Did go Buro+Slavery, however, and have whipped out some courthouses and a forge. A bit overflow into Paya, and it's half-built in Rostov. Loads of people with Theo now, so who knows where the AP will end up.

The bad news: Mansa got Paper!! I've traded it with him now, after investing a turn and tossing Music his way. If he goes for Education.....

It's now turn 113, or 50BC. I whipped some things, and went back to Caste. Hired 12 scientists. Then it dawned on me that I have that Great Artist, and perhaps ought to launch a Golden Age. Then those whips were rather unfortunate, but on the other hand, the two Great Scientists needed will get out faster. Probably faster than I can half-tech Education to be honest. The Great Merchant is on the way towards Artemis in Wonsan, but it's a long journey. Sadly it doesn't look like Wang has roaded through the jungle yet, despite founding a city on the other side (he got the FPs).

So in short, should I launch a GAge at this point to help boost GS production, or am I better off to wait with that until later? It always feels a little sad to 'only' get Nationalism with Lib, but I may not get anything more expensive here, at least if Mansa goes straight for Edu. Wang is bound to get Paper from Mansa soon too, so then both mammoths will be close. And I don't have tech view on them.

This is the tech screen currently. Rather more advanced lot than in BiC's game. Probably partly my fault for numerous trades, but nothing I can do about the Mansa/Wang bromanship. At least the war holds Mansa back a bit.

Spoiler :

Hard priorities now on cottages vs scientists... 5 scientists in St. Petersburg, which will birth a GS in 6 turns. 5 turns after that, Heliopolis will get another one (500 points). Naturally that will be cut down a fair bit if I launch a golden age.

 

[Anysense]

Racing to Lib along with Mansa is a bummer, but what can you do? Bulbing PP and Chemistry could be an interesting alternative but both have lower priority than Education. So, unless you can get Edu in trade this option is closed.

 

[Pangaea]

Thanks for the feedback again Slipped my mind that you built an Academy. That helps to explain your very impressive beaker rate. I looked at your image of the empire, and my own, and couldn't quite understand why your rate was so much higher, when cottage development didn't look that different. But an Academy in such a strong (and large!) capital must make a pretty big difference. But like you wrote earlier, it's probably too late in my game. Certainly more important to use the coming two GSes for bulbs.

That marble city doesn't look too shabby, even can borrow food. That said, I agree it's more important there to tech up to a military unit and start to grab land from Stalin. Deity AIs can suddenly catch up out of the blue, so best to use the window while it's open. Blink, and he can have maces and castles, and then it's a huge pain in the neck. Good thing he's so backwards though, because he's unlikely to get anything to trade with the others, ensuring he will stay backwards. That is a good insurance for the upcoming war. Please let us know how you get on

Edit: Btw, once you do declare, watch out for Saladin. If possible, maybe you can change religion and get him pleased somehow, then beg (abusing game mechanics, ooops), then declare while he thinks you're super cool for 10 turns

 

[Pangaea]

I haven't looked at the save yet as I'm playing another game, but that trade screen looks very promising, especially in view of nobody having Writing yet, and you having secured Education. That is great, and possibly sets you up for a good Lib tech. You are well head of me here, that's for sure. Altho I have a bit more land ofc, which I hope will mean I can get into a good position as well, and maybe win Lib. Tech and diplo looks more tricky in my save. Four happy faces makes for a fairly safe situation in your game Perhaps you could take out Stalin, and then win diplo. Though it's more fun to go all out war of course. More action that way.

 

[Pangaea]

Yeah, they don't even have writing, what am I thinking about ?

Without Writing, that would have been quite something I'll just have to offer the excuse, in writing, that paper is associated with it

Haven't played on yet, got busy with the recent NC (289, for posterity), but I'm intrigued by what you mention about the golden age. Probably ought to launch it, get out those two great scientists, and see what happens. If Mansa suddenly has Edu, I may not beat him, but even Nationalism would be good to have for 'free' if I do.

In addition to the different strategies on display here, it's also interesting to see how much games can differ based on diplo, religion and tech pace/choices.

Edit: I loaded your save, and everybody and their mother and brother are building wonders. There may be a pack of failgold available for trade in the future.

 

[Fippy]

I'd say with SPI a golden age can come whenever you feel like it helps.
Now seems fine, speeding up Helio's GS in case a bulb on Lib becomes urgent
St. Pete should be fast enuf for the Edu bulb.

Hmm you could look at how much gold "Inch'on" gives for the GM, possible that distance is far enuf for 1.1k.
Artemis city will prolly give 1.3k or even 1.5k cos of size 14.

I wonder again if taking 1.1k now would be good, not having slider delays could be more important.
Not much need for pre-built & upgraded units with so many cities, imo.
But if failgold is expected soon, early cashing in could be wasteful too. Just throwing out options

 

[Fish Man]

@Pangaea Had a little fun tonight.

To t92 (575 BC):

Spoiler :

Err, both Stalin and Saladin started with essentially no metal. So...

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

If you deny the AI metal but give them horses they will fill their cities with like 4 chariots each or something dumb. On this map 3/7 civs had no copper and not even easy access to iron, and this was the result:

Spoiler :

Broken map

Spoiler :

Got a free GLH too!

Spoiler :

Yes, this was done with reloads, being fully honest here. Could it have been possible without? For sure, though I would've brought 1.5x more WCs just in case. Archers and chariotspam are a flimsy defense against basically HAs-lite.

This was truly a dream map for Egypt, and Hatty in particular. No UU would’ve been as effective against pure chariot spam + a handful of archers, as WCs.

I’ve also never seen so much food (evenly distributed) on a map before. Almost EVERY city I have has at least 2 food sources, and I have room for a half dozen more of the same quality. Absolutely bonkers .

 

[Anysense]

You are doing well with 14 cities by t92! Building research a lot, of course, but even so. WC rush can be very impressive in the right circumstances. May be, I will give it a spin in my next marathon space game, if I ever play it.

 

[Henrik75]

Hatty best girl.

@Pangaea

Spoiler :

Looking like a really good cuirassier rush coming up, with or without lib you have the production and resources and tech potential to get there at a solid date.

 

[Pangaea]

Thanks @Henrik75 and others. I want to go back to this game again and not let it die. Think the best option right now is to launch the GAge to get those GS a little quicker, and see if it's possible to win Lib. That would make things easier for sure.

 

[Pangaea]

Sorry again for playing several games kinda simultaneously, and I want to get back to this one again.

Will probably have this issue here too, like for example in the Nobles Club game. How do you recover on Deity? How to do that when the economy is in the gutter after a war, even a successful one? And is it possible to catch up in tech when the AI has been running away with things, being mostly in peace and building economic wonders and shrines? It's so easy to lose faith and feel hopelessly adrift

 

[Fippy]

I know that feeling, early game is best
Recovering..can be difficult after really early rushes, but after Cuirs it's usually reaching Rifling & finishing with Cavs.
Even if they have Rifles themselves, stacks of 50+ Cavs should win.

 

[Pangaea]

Thanks. How do you catch up, tho? Seems to hard. While I'm busy digging myself out of a financial meltdown, they're storming away towards infantry. And the hill to climb keeps getting steeper and steeper.

I suppose there are no easy answers. If it's possible to 'catch up' through military means, that's one way of winning the game, but that isn't always so easy either. Or you need to catch a big gap in technology.

Early game is more fun, when the entire map is unknown and I don't know who the AIs are. Then the excitement (and worry) when they show up

 

[Fish Man]

Thanks. How do you catch up, tho? Seems to hard. While I'm busy digging myself out of a financial meltdown, they're storming away towards infantry. And the hill to climb keeps getting steeper and steeper.

I suppose there are no easy answers. If it's possible to 'catch up' through military means, that's one way of winning the game, but that isn't always so easy either. Or you need to catch a big gap in technology.

Early game is more fun, when the entire map is unknown and I don't know who the AIs are. Then the excitement (and worry) when they show up

One way to catch up is an "extortion economy", where you attack an AI in an early war and try not to use ceafires; by the end, hope you have accumulated enough war success to get many of the classical era techs for peace, and leave your enemy crippled with just 1 city that you can then return 10 turns later to take.

Once you limp your way to currency, just build wealth everywhere. After you have granaries and libraries up, don't think of building anything else for the next 50 turns. You could also bulb philo with your first GS, which makes it so the other AI won't go for it (for all the "freebie techs", including religion and free great people, once one person gets it, nobody wants it for ages). As well as eventually using it for excellent tradebait, this also buys you more time before the AIs start thinking of going for lib.

 

[Fish Man]

t158 update

Spoiler :

Something tells me this game is already won...

Still, annoying issue...I have to be careful not to cross the dom limit if I'm to go to space. Certainly, if I cap Mansa, I'll have to give him back most or all of his cities. Very aggravating, seeing as how well-developed they are.

Spoiler :

@BornInCantaloup Are you saying 1.5x would've been too much? Maybe, but I can't "rely" on rolling good 30% or 60% fights as much as I did, when I reloaded and tested whether I won the first few crucial ones.

 

[Fish Man]

I edited my last post after checking your save again.

I'm all for breaking a map but this is not a shadow.

That's fair. However, I should say that Saladin never found metal, and when I declared he was still about 10-15 turns or more away from getting it. It's super risky but doable, though maybe not the best plan if you want to play this map only once with maximum% chance of winning.

If going by only single-rush, my advice would have been twofold. First, raze garbage cities - Stalin founded quite a few of these, either too far away or claiming a single weak food resource and nothing more. Don't hesitate to get rid of those, to re-settle later or let the AI claim the land that you can then take.

The next thing you should do is get your hands on some form of monopoly tech. Besides the philo bulb, which is one idea, I would have teched metal casting and then traded that around, since it's expensive enough to trade for alpha/a lot of other things without beakers being put into them. Mansa being in this game may be a boon, because you can trade for his monopoly techs and then hand that around - eventually he'll do the same, but AIs usually wait a few turns to actually start trading their stuff away usually, and player has turn order precedence.

You're right, though - this is less of a shadow and a "me messing around aiming for another fancy space win". Other people here probably played more realistically and conservatively. If I'm truly being honest, everything I do isn't necessarily the best option, because it isn't "achieving earliest win", but "achieving earliest win of a particular condition I'm going for". It's just an example of what's possible.

 

[Pangaea]

You captured 10+ cities losing 3 units.

Crikey. I know there have been reloads, but this seems a little excessive?

It can be interesting to see what is possible with perfect play and perfect knowledge, but it's not necessarily very instructive. If that makes sense? Wouldn't it be more fun to play these games blind, and take what the game offers on the chin? Okay, sometimes the game hits with a straight fist, which isn't fun at all, but overall I find it more enjoyable than reloading and playing maps with map knowledge. I love the early game too much

Suppose we just have a very different play style, or find fun in different ways. *shrug* I hope this doesn't read very badly because that isn't my intention, but on the other hand it may be useful for other readers to appreciate that some of these shadows or 'plays' isn't realistic to reproduce.