Subdued Animals in C2C discussions

[strategyonly]

While you may want 3 ring cities this is a drawback in the early to Mid game. I avoid using the 3 ring level for cities anymore until late game. And most of the time not even then.

Suggestion, build a new city next to that city were the horse resource will be in the New cities Fat X.

JosEPh

But doesnt that take away from certain "bounties" for 1 city and place them in that city then??

 

[JosEPh_II]

Yes, but you get to use it much sooner and not watch it sit there doing nothing for ages.

JosEPh

 

[BlueGenie]

But doesnt that take away from certain "bounties" for 1 city and place them in that city then??

Depends on what you mean with "bounties".
The tile itself can only be worked by one city but all resources on the map inside the BFC give access to their special buildings in teh city, even if that plot can not be worked by the city.

Checking your map and if you set a city on the plot to the right of the horse recourse you will in both your capital and the new city be able to build Gold pertaining buildings, Elephand pertaining buildings, and Indigo pertaining buildings. Not sure if you have other resources to share between those cities.

In C2C I have found that sharing resources between cities is a good thing, and since most yields come from buildings anyway it does not matter all that much if cities have less plots to work directly. I try to get my cities as close as possible so they share as many resources as possible.

Cheers

 

[strategyonly]

In C2C I have found that sharing resources between cities is a good thing, and since most yields come from buildings anyway it does not matter all that much if cities have less plots to work directly. I try to get my cities as close as possible so they share as many resources as possible.

See i never play that way, infact i separate them as far away as possible, well just barely outside the current range of workable tiles that is. So maybe i am playing wrong then?? Thats why i keep getting my butt
kicked

 

[JosEPh_II]

See i never play that way, infact i separate them as far away as possible, well just barely outside the current range of workable tiles that is. So maybe i am playing wrong then?? Thats why i keep getting my butt
kicked

Like Blue Genie my cities are close and may overlap. This has been a carryover/preferred way to play (for me) since early RoM days. To me tiles between cities are wasted if not in a cities Fat X. And if 1 or 2 cities share a few tiles so what. Means I can pack more cities into an empire and have higher pop and better production in all phases.

Back in the RoM heydays in the later part of the game when the land was almost all taken I would look at my borders to see if the AI had left a strip of 4-8 tiles unsettled and I would plop a city down. By working my culture I would eventually "take" some tiles or a whole city from the AI. And that "strip" city would flesh out some more and become even stronger. It's still a strategy I like but in C2C I don't make it to that point in the game anymore (constant change precludes having mature games).

JosEPh

 

[Faustmouse]

See i never play that way, infact i separate them as far away as possible, well just barely outside the current range of workable tiles that is. So maybe i am playing wrong then?? Thats why i keep getting my butt
kicked

Check the "Lunar test" savegame I have in my folders. The cities there are only 2 tiles away from each other. While it matters early to a certain degree, in the renaissance a point is reached were cities are purely beneficial without anything then a traderoute connection. Also there are so many + and buildings by then, that they basically don't need to work a single tile. So the "more cities to win" strategy is totally valid then.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Check the "Lunar test" savegame I have in my folders. The cities there are only 2 tiles away from each other. While it matters early to a certain degree, in the renaissance a point is reached were cities are purely beneficial without anything then a traderoute connection. Also there are so many + and buildings by then, that they basically don't need to work a single tile. So the "more cities to win" strategy is totally valid then.

As I favor widely set cities, I figured I'd chime in here.

Yes, for the NATION, closer cities are more beneficial and largely due to trade and benefits stemming from buildings. Clearly, the economy would benefit from this greatly, including research speeds.

HOWEVER...

The larger cities can amass far greater power into those cities themselves, primarily where production is considered. This means that as militarily reactive cities or cities building research/wealth etc... they are FAR more powerful as a larger city, particularly now that plots and their resources and such have been rebalanced to have much stronger benefits than the previous versions. They can grow to larger sizes from amassing more food which can mean far more powerful GP production and xp production under the specialist xp option(and this can also be a negative due to requiring greater property controls which again hits the economy some.)

But more than anything I find it critical to allow the capital all the plots it can get. That and ANY city you plan to build military from - so that the city can plug out as many units as you possibly can in as great a speed as possible. It gives you centers to really pour your GGs and such into and build your most powerful wonders in to produce enormously powerful units. And even for economic powercenters where you plan to headquarter religions and corporations you want those to have as much room as possible to maximize the overall value of that particular city where you've built your strong +% gold/research wonders that only apply to that city.

So I refuse to crowd in my early cities period. They become the core of the empire. Going outside of that, invading other lands and such, I certainly don't care so much how spaced out they are and will even plant filler cities to take advantage of gaps where land isn't worked and all the above noted benefits of crowded cities. But I'll only do that once the primary cities have taken all the plots they can for their own.

I've been so annoyed by early crowding in nations I've not only gone to war early to give myself room but I often find, if the game is still young and I'm still establishing primary cities, that I'll just raze as I go and collect the captives and replant my garden of cities as I would place them.


(Suppose I shouldn't mention any of this but Joe mentioned his strategies here too so I figured it was only fair to self-reveal some of my own play style.)

 

[BlueGenie]

Check the "Lunar test" savegame I have in my folders. The cities there are only 2 tiles away from each other. While it matters early to a certain degree, in the renaissance a point is reached were cities are purely beneficial without anything then a traderoute connection. Also there are so many + and buildings by then, that they basically don't need to work a single tile. So the "more cities to win" strategy is totally valid then.

2 tiles away, or 2 tiles between? C2C has a limit of 2 plots between cities so unless you have changed it that should be the limit.

Thunderbrd's rambling is correct too, having more plots to get either hammers or commerce or food can make that city produce faster, spit out more science (but not gold), or grow bigger (but not faster).
But this is a truth in moderation.
True, one city can have a very high production and build Wonders faster. Also true is that you can not have more than x Wonders anyway unless using specific option of no limits. 2 cities can build more wonders together because of this even with less production.
The same goes for units, though with bonus XP one can have more XP with one city you can have 2 units from 2 cities, which in many cases countrs for more than some bonus XP.
Science from a science output city, or from 2 unspecialized cities?
And so on and on.

The one thing that I can consider is the one thing you did not mention Thunder. *grin* Maintenance.
Little space between means more cities needed for the same effect in the end, so more in #Cities maintenance and in total costing more gold for the same output.
You do gain a bit in DistanceMaintenance costs though, and a little in not having quite as big cities in the end game too.

What we all are about though is when limited space exists more cities can give a bonus in the end. This is also part of the reason why I some times advocate for reduced science for more cities because it is the science that determines the better strat with more cites, regardless if they are spread out or nestled close.
Peoples examples of AI being ahead in tech and thus spitting out 4x the cities the human has makes for a hard game where the human will always strike from behind, even counting help from Tech Diffusion as that is based on your tech output and not how far ahead the opponents are.

Cheers

 

[Faustmouse]

2 tiles away, or 2 tiles between? C2C has a limit of 2 plots between cities so unless you have changed it that should be the limit.

Thunderbrd's rambling is correct too, having more plots to get either hammers or commerce or food can make that city produce faster, spit out more science (but not gold), or grow bigger (but not faster).
But this is a truth in moderation.
True, one city can have a very high production and build Wonders faster. Also true is that you can not have more than x Wonders anyway unless using specific option of no limits. 2 cities can build more wonders together because of this even with less production.
The same goes for units, though with bonus XP one can have more XP with one city you can have 2 units from 2 cities, which in many cases countrs for more than some bonus XP.
Science from a science output city, or from 2 unspecialized cities?
And so on and on.

The one thing that I can consider is the one thing you did not mention Thunder. *grin* Maintenance.
Little space between means more cities needed for the same effect in the end, so more in #Cities maintenance and in total costing more gold for the same output.
You do gain a bit in DistanceMaintenance costs though, and a little in not having quite as big cities in the end game too.

What we all are about though is when limited space exists more cities can give a bonus in the end. This is also part of the reason why I some times advocate for reduced science for more cities because it is the science that determines the better strat with more cites, regardless if they are spread out or nestled close.
Peoples examples of AI being ahead in tech and thus spitting out 4x the cities the human has makes for a hard game where the human will always strike from behind, even counting help from Tech Diffusion as that is based on your tech output and not how far ahead the opponents are.

Cheers

2 tiles between them.
You both made valid points, but I think the whole discussion belongs in the strategy thread not this one.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@DH

Here is a Galapagos Penguin. They live in the Galapagos Islands. They should get the same buildings as the other penguins.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@DH

Here is a Meerkat. They live in Africa. Their combat classes need to be looked at since I used a Badger for a base and there were not any other animals quite like them.

Hakuna Matata!

 

[Hydromancerx]

@DH

Here is a Wombat. They live in Australia. It should have the same buildings as the other Marsupials.

Also since you live in Australia have you ever seen a wild one? Just wondered.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@DH

Here is a Brushtail Possum. It lives in Australia. It should have the same buildings as the other Marsupials.

Also have you seen a wild one too?

 

[Hydromancerx]

Here is a rundown on the Marsupials.

Blue = Converted but not in game yet.
Purple = Have but not converted yet.
Red = Don't have
* = Exinct

- Bandicoot
- Bilby
- Brushtail Possum
- Cuscus
- Diprotodon*
- Grey Kangaroo
- Koala
- Numbat
- Opossum (I thought this was in game what happened to it?)
- Procoptodon*
- Quokka
- Quoll
- Red Kangaroo
- Sugar Glider
- Tasmanian Devil
- Thylacinus*
- Thylacoleo*
- Tree Kanagroo
- Wallaby
- Wallaroo
- Wombat

There are more like a marsupial mole, small rat-like ones too but I think this list covers the major species.

 

[Yudishtira]

@DH

Here is a Brushtailed Possum. It lives in Australia. It should have the same buildings as the other Marsupials.

Also have you seen a wild one too?

Brushtail (and ringtail) possums are quite common in parts of both Sydney and Brisbane (and elsewhere too, although I can't speak for Canberra). Two brushtails have made their home in the house here, between the upstairs floor and the downstairs ceiling...

On one occasion in the past I have fed melted marshmallow to a wild brushtail, that's how easy CE3Ks with them are...

 

[Hydromancerx]

That's really cool Yudishtira! The only possums we get here are cranky old Opossums. Who are not friendly at all, but they do love eating from my orange tree in my backyard.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Are there any requests for animals I have not converted yet?

 

[Hydromancerx]

Can anyone figure out why parts of this Razorbill are not showing up? In NIFSkope i can see it but in game its missing parts of its body.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Are there any requests for animals I have not converted yet?

I just want us to consider the major poison sources in the world and make sure we've got all of those that are animals manifested into the game so that I can work with them for those poisons later.

Also... what about the BLUE whale?

Some smaller animals should be in play as well. I know we were going to convert the rabbit but we haven't yet. What about Chinchillas? I love the meerkats going in...

Mice? Rats? Spiders? Scorpions? Centipedes? 'Spose we can leave insects mostly in just as 'vermin' buildings. But the differing types of poisons derivable from some of the varieties being limited to certain places on the globe could have some interesting interplay here. And a swarm of Army Ants could be a significant foe on the battlefield.

There's also the Octopus and Jellyfish.

Having all these BASIC varieties I'm thinking is a LOT more important than having accurately reflected differing types of Tapirs (I'd never even HEARD of a tapir before this mod! Since I've seen them on TV now and then...) and such a wide volume of varying bear species.

There's also a TON of various bird species that aren't reflected. The Sparrow, the Cardinal, Jaybirds, Robins, etc... The Arctic Tern comes across as kind of an 'odd duck' as it were since many of his comparables aren't in the game. Not that we need them all mind you.

 

[Yudishtira]

Also... what about the BLUE whale?

Some smaller animals should be in play as well. I know we were going to convert the rabbit but we haven't yet. What about Chinchillas? I love the meerkats going in...

Mice? Rats? Spiders? Scorpions? Centipedes? 'Spose we can leave insects mostly in just as 'vermin' buildings. But the differing types of poisons derivable from some of the varieties being limited to certain places on the globe could have some interesting interplay here. And a swarm of Army Ants could be a significant foe on the battlefield.

There's also the Octopus and Jellyfish.

There's also a TON of various bird species that aren't reflected. The Sparrow, the Cardinal, Jaybirds, Robins, etc... The Arctic Tern comes across as kind of an 'odd duck' as it were since many of his comparables aren't in the game. Not that we need them all mind you.

Sorry but I think smaller animals are unnecessary as units - they are basically resources and represented by beavers or whatever the fur map resource is called now.

Jellyfish could be an interesting resource/pseudo-resource, but since all sea units are boats/ships, combat with jellyfish doesn't make sense. Octopus as a 'game' (food) fish is fair enough.

Similarly with birds I think small inoffensive birds make little sense as units. Even the pigeons and pheasants we already have are unnecessary. Three that I would like to see are the condor, the US buzzard and the albatross.

I too would like to see the blue whale in there, but wouldn't it be 3-5 tiles long if it was to scale with the current humpback...?

And a big yes to Army Ants/Fire Ants, nature's nanite swarms...