Suicide

[Kyriakos]

Thought we could have a debate of suicide.
It still is a taboo issue. Euthanasia of humans is as well. I am not sure how much Euthanasia is a euphemism in this case, since etymologically it means to have "a good death". Is there really any painless death though?

Some people are against suicide in all forms, based on religious doctrine. Although i can see where they come from, i would definitely not think it holds much water in extreme cases. Only it is usefull to note that what is extreme and what is not, is not always (if at all) determined by the circumstances, but mostly by the view of the person himself. I knew people who were in horrible position, yet seemed to be accepting their situation. I recall twice giving free food to an armless beggar in central London. He accepted it as if he was entitled to it. I on the other hand was no more the saint, since back then i projected onto him my own repressed misery, which is why i helped him (although at the time i reasoned it was because he was in such a pitiful state).

It is often said by survivors of terrible fates that man has enormous stregth, and can pretty much take anything. While on the surface the sorry sight of our still consumerist societies gives the impression that we are way too scared of losing, the reality of people who actually lost important parts of their lives (such as literal or metaphorical limbs) tells a very different story.

I think it is better to keep this introduction brief. The grief which may rise in relation to the topic is probably justified, although i aimed at a sober discussion of suicide as a means to an end of an abysmal state, and to raise the question whether (for whatever reason) it should be frowned up, or at least discouraged.

Of course 'suicide is painless, it brings on many changes' etc

 

[Gigaz]

Some people are against suicide in all forms, based on religious doctrine.

I am strongly against suicide and I am certainly not influenced by religion.

Let's take the legitimate case were someone has good reasons for suicide that do not come down to a cureable depression.
The purpose is either:
-to end the progression of one's self-aware personality and to annihilate all memories
-or to continue both in a better afterlife.

There is always a chance that the suicide fails. In this case, the person is usually in a worse situation then before.
Even in the case of no-fail suicide, not-existence is not a safe bet, even from a strictly scientific point of view. What if anything that can exist, will exist? Escaping might be impossible after all. Your existence would propably continue on the most likely path on which you are not a corpse.

 

[Kyriakos]

Interesting, so you still have a spiritually-based view against suicide in most cases though (?)

I accept that some try to kill themselves, fail, and live in far worse state than their previous one. But what if someone was guaranteed to succeed in killing himself, in a relatively painless way? (i am not sure if physically it is possible to kill onself painlessly by some method, but then there is the question of experiencing extinction in a painless manner).

The mysticists believe that if you kill yourself you are creating bad energy which will return to you in your next life. Others argue that it is very selfish to kill yourself (although you already mentioned cases of relative depression).

 

[Gigaz]

Interesting, so you still have a spiritually-based view against suicide in most cases though (?)

This is not about spiritism, but about likelihood estimations one which the decision for suicide is made. It's just like the decision on whether you should put all your money on Greece winning against Czech republic tomorrow.
So for suicide, you'd consider how likely it is that the suicide fails and all other possible paths on which your personality and memories survive untouched. And you evaluate, how desirable these outcomes are.

 

[Glassfan]

Suicide negates all insurance policies, so one must consider one's family's future afterwards.

 

[Bootstoots]

I'm all in favor of allowing suicide in the face of situations in which it is impossible, or exceedingly improbable, that an individual will ever have a life subjectively worth living, such as terminal cancer, fatal degenerative conditions like Huntington's disease, or other situations like life imprisonment.

It's a lot harder when mental conditions are involved. I would support the right of a patient to choose to die if they are, say, 60 years old with schizophrenia that has lasted for the past 40 years. On the flip side, a 25-year-old with depression will probably again see a time in which life is subjectively worth living for that individual - so they should be prevented from taking their own life. But where to draw the line is really tough where mental conditions are involved.

Where suicide is to be allowed to occur, it should be with methods that are as effective and painless as possible. For example, an extremely large IV dose of a powerful barbiturate can do the job very reliably with minimum suffering. This is the sort of service we provide to terminally suffering animals that only a handful of jurisdictions allow for humans, for whatever "moral" reason.

 

[Kyriakos]

I agree with you. There are, unfortunately, many many cases of very young people commiting suicide. Although some conditions (such as schizophrenia which you mentioned) can indeed make one's life a living hell, and almost impossible to recover from it. But most cases seem to benefit from prescribed drug use, so that as well has some hope attached to it, although many people just never find their way to a doctor's office.

I recall reading online some days ago the story of a girl which had to to lose an arm due to some flesh-eating disease. Then she recovered, only to be told she has to lose another arm and leg. I cannot even begin to imagine her state. In such cases i confess i secretly wish for the individual to be released from all the problems, but then again it is relative to how they feel. Pain is not an objective emotion. People have been known to experience extreme pain, then for example ask for morphine, only to be given a placebo and the pain disappears since it was almost entirely psychologically-driven.

 

[Bootstoots]

It's always been a fear of mine that I'll be in a situation like paralysis or quadruple amputation where I can't escape even by suicide, although a number of studies have been released showing that even quadriplegics typically return to their old "baseline" emotional states within weeks of their injury. And, as you said, pain is very responsive to the placebo effect for some reason. I would still support the right to die of anyone in those conditions who had experienced their suffering for an extended period of time and could give informed consent to be euthanized, but the mind is a weird thing, that's for sure.

Existing remedies for schizophrenia are mostly really awful; most antipsychotics, for instance, carry severe side effects and many patients report essentially feeling like "zombies" under the medication. However, a young person with a recent schizophrenia diagnosis will not know if there is a treatment that will make life worth living again, or even whether or not their schizophrenia will remit (sometimes this happens on its own). So that's why my position on people who have spent decades with schizophrenia and choose suicide is different than my position for a young person who has recently been diagnosed.

 

[downtown]

Suicide negates all insurance policies, so one must consider one's family's future afterwards.

Not true. My father commited sucide, and his life insurance kicked in, since he died 2 years after he purchased it. My own life insurance plan will not pay out to my wife if I kill myself in the next year, but in 2014, it would. Depends on the plan.

 

[Glassfan]

Not true. My father commited sucide, and his life insurance kicked in, since he died 2 years after he purchased it...QUOTE]

I stand corrected.

 

[emzie]

I've always figured life insurance pays out on suicides since they're a death resulting from an illness.

I have far too man thoughts to put down in words right now, so this is a bit of a ramble.

Our support for mental health in many countries (including the two in which I've lived) is atrocious. I've always thought suicide as an isolated action is neutral, but the pain it causes your family is horrible. You'll often hear suicide is selfish because it hurts these people. I can't buy that. People who kill themselves don't think they're going to hurt people. It's not a logical thing... no one is laying there in bed and thinks, "well on the plus I'll no longer feel this, on the negative, my mother will be emotionally destroyed" No, you're laying there partially numb and wondering why you keep forcing other people to spend their time on you. You honestly can't see the compassion they have for you, you just feel guilty about the whole thing. Like you're a lemon and its time to just return the lemon to the dealer rather than try fixing it again.

Suicide isn't selfish in the traditional sense of, "I don't care about others" but in some really quixotic (and incorrect) way, selfless. You think yer doing people a favour. You're wrong of course, horribly horribly dreadfully wrong. But you're not just thinking of your own pain. Your mind's just incapable of working properly and understanding others. Getting back to what I said at the start, this is a massive failure from society in dealing with mental health. We're getting better at it, much better. That's a good start.

Again, sorry for the rambling nature of this.

 

[warpus]

Suicide should be a personal right - but it should only be afforded to those who came to the decision with a sound mind. i.e. a psychologist/shrink would have to be involved

 

[Kyriakos]

Although that could be seen as somewhat organizing euthanasia, on the other hand it is sure to draw fire to the world of psychology, which is in no way (and neither should it be) ready to make such calls.

It is not established just after what line one is irreversibly into suicidal ideation. The science of psychology is not exact, and it can't be exact either since it deals with the whole of the phenomenon of human existence.

So i do not think you can really regulate euthanasia in that way either.

 

[rugbyLEAGUEfan]

I would really hope that one day humans on the whole have enough of a respect for life to allow a framework for legalized euthanasia to be practical, as in principal I am all for it. I have concerns at this stage in our history that we have the maturity to readily allow it.

 

[Kyriakos]

You know there is a wonderful (in my view his best) short story by Guy De Maupassant which is exactly about a hypothetical allowance in Paris of the Belle-Epoch of a society of Suicide to form. People went to its building to end their lives. You did not have to end your lfie if you did not want to, you could just become a member and use its services at will.
It was always the poorest, downtrodden people who only wanted an end

 

[warpus]

Although that could be seen as somewhat organizing euthanasia, on the other hand it is sure to draw fire to the world of psychology, which is in no way (and neither should it be) ready to make such calls.

It is not established just after what line one is irreversibly into suicidal ideation. The science of psychology is not exact, and it can't be exact either since it deals with the whole of the phenomenon of human existence.

It's not exact and it will never be exact, but it's the best we'll have.

I don't think we can deny a human such a basic right just because of the inexactness of psychology.

 

[NedimNapoleon]

Link to video.

 

[Mango Elephant]

A family my family's close to had a daughter commit suicide. The funeral was the saddest thing I've ever seen. My brother has mental problems (including depression) and my greatest fear is him killing himself.

Human euthanasia is fine. I'd rather die on my own terms on my own date than die in horrible pain on a date I never planned to die on.

I've never liked how the two dates on a tombstone are the date of one's birth and the date of one's death. No one knows their date of death except maybe very close to the end. I want a date on my tombstone that I chose, not a date that was never a part of my life until I was almost dead. So if I ever get a terminal disease, I plan on getting euthanized.

 

[Synobun]

Don't support suicide or euthanasia.

I see no point to end life prematurely even if you're in terrible pain and have no future/are near death anyways.

 

[PlutonianEmpire]

I myself support suicide and euthanasia. If one is unhappy with life, for whatever reason, they have every right to end it, even if they are mentally ill. Society and government have no right to regulate what we can or can't do with our own bodies and lives.