Summer craziness, Deity OCC Always War, without chokepoint.

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I just posted a HoF Gauntlet suggestion loosely based on this thread (OCC is not required, but it is optional for those that prefer it):

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=314666

Please add your comments to this thread, if you so inclined.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[bhavv]

I tried the OPs map again and managed to oracle CS this time, but got trolled heavily with Great people production - 1 x G spy, 1 x G prophet, and then 2 x G artists because I built the Parthenon, despite having over 60% chance for G scientists.

Im really not a fan of philosophical with wonder whoring, the odds of getting what you want are too random.

 

[ScorpionK]

Espionage Economy is still workable with OCC. Might still be able to spead religion naturally. May want to try to found most religions to increase natural religion spread over all and switch state religion to the one that does finally spread to the AIs nearby city.

Try to minimize land via high sea level. May want to stick with minimum # of AIs, so not too many come knocking loudly on one's door at the same time. They should eventually settle close by and then the Espionage fun can start.

Sun Tzu Wu

I agree on the point, that developing most Religions oneself would be a good thing, because this would make the AIs get friendly to each other just not so fast. Religion spread on Marathon is trippled, so there's actually no need to spread Religion manually, especially, as AIs will do it for you, once they have only 1 city with a Religion at all. This could, and I guess will be, one of the most different games to the games that most of the people play here (Always War, Religion favouring game, Espionage Economy) .

In case you don't know, one of the nasty things about Always War is religion won't auto-spread.

Otherwise, EE will be the perfect answer for OCC AW without doctored map.

I tried the OPs map again and managed to oracle CS this time, but got trolled heavily with Great people production - 1 x G spy, 1 x G prophet, and then 2 x G artists because I built the Parthenon, despite having over 60% chance for G scientists.

Im really not a fan of philosophical with wonder whoring, the odds of getting what you want are too random.

In that case, maybe I suggest you build limited wonder before you got GS, like GW, mids, oracle, then great library, national epic. while running as many scienctiest as possible.

But to get 2 G artist, I must say you got super bad luck .

Maybe use 1 of them of GAge? saving for another GA or bulb. I don't settle GA, they are useless.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Yes...

Might still be able to spead religion naturally. May want to try to found most religions to increase natural religion spread over all and switch state religion to the one that does finally spread to the AIs nearby city.

... can that even happen in AW?
I thought the religious spread required a trade network connection. Something that Sailing/roads enable, that closed borders doesn't cut and that war cancels.


@ScorpionK or Gauntlet, @map type:
Small Inland Sea, High Sea level creates many 1 tile chokes. At most two they are 2 tiles wide (huhu! that's a difference). Maybe it's a good map type for a more dynamic game than the single-choke one. You may find the layout appealing.

 

[bhavv]

I settled the GAs, still +3 gold and beakers.

 

[ScorpionK]

Yes...

... can that even happen in AW?
I thought the religious spread required a trade network connection. Something that Sailing/roads enable, that closed borders doesn't cut and that war cancels.


@ScorpionK or Gauntlet, @map type:
Small Inland Sea, High Sea level creates many 1 tile chokes. At most two they are 2 tiles wide (huhu! that's a difference). Maybe it's a good map type for a more dynamic game than the single-choke one. You may find the layout appealing.

Huh; I play inland sea, high sea level a lot, but I never see 1 tile choke point. You sure about this?

This kind of map will make OCC AW become truly brutal, indeed intriguing

 

[ScorpionK]

I settled the GAs, still +3 gold and beakers.

Even though I promised that I will reveal my tiny trick to make AIs attack the choke, but the current game is taking longer than I expected. So here it is, in case you want to try it

It is very simple, attack the AI stack by 1 or 2 of your unit. Here is 1 example: I use axeman to attack AI archer, normally they will never attack my choke with this pitiful number.





But then, after being attacked once, they throw themselves at hopeless battle.




Another example that I use 2 axeman to attack first




Even though they only got 2 archers left, they still attack helplessly.




This trick will work most of time, not always.

Have fun

 

[Manco Capac]

Interesting, I have a deep knowledge and experience of AI unit behaviors, but this escaped me...

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Huh; I play inland sea, high sea level a lot, but I never see 1 tile choke point. You sure about this?

Indeed, you're right: no 1 tile choke on Small Inland Sea. I seem to recall toying with settings and coming up with that kind of two ways easily defensible map... Maybe it wasn't Inland Sea, after all, or maybe the choke was much wider.
Sorry, my bad. I can't remember the facts.



@The trick:
Yes, if you have the spare units for defence, then wounding your own top defender(s) (especially a GG, I suppose, although that might be too risky to be good (if he defends nevertheless) - hence little use for Shock promo in this situation) will incite the AI units to attack (higher chance of success). Just wounding potential defenders would, in fact. Or moving extra defenders a tile back. Wouldn't it? I'm not so sure anymore... Sorry.
Recognizing the right times to counter and those to stay fortified isn't oh-so-super easy... Also the question of what unit to wound isn't always the easiest, I guess.

@Tachywaxon:
Attack courage!

 

[ScorpionK]

Indeed, you're right: no 1 tile choke on Small Inland Sea. I seem to recall toying with settings and coming up with that kind of two ways easily defensible map... Maybe it wasn't Inland Sea, after all, or maybe the choke was much wider.
Sorry, my bad. I can't remember the facts.

"Wider" is a bit understatement

@The trick:
Yes, if you have the spare units for defence, then wounding your own top defender(s) (especially a GG, I suppose, although that might be too risky to be good (if he defends nevertheless) - hence little use for Shock promo in this situation) will incite the AI units to attack (higher chance of success). Just wounding potential defenders would, in fact. Or moving extra defenders a tile back. Wouldn't it? I'm not so sure anymore... Sorry.
Recognizing the right times to counter and those to stay fortified isn't oh-so-super easy... Also the question of what unit to wound isn't always the easiest, I guess.

Ah, you misunderstand when we talked about shock promotion because he need to defend the city, which can not make use of woodsman promotion. If he got forested choke like in the picture, no need for shock.

I don't think wounded GG got something to do cause a lot of time, AI still attack no matter if GG got wounded or not. By no mean that I understand why they did this, maybe Tachywaxon could try the code again?

Moving defender back do nothing to invite AI to attack, in fact, it is more dangerous for us cause now our defender lost fortify bonus.

After a lot defending, I guess I can tell how many defender will be needed to hold against the AI counter. About 1 for 2 AI units, also depend on how many HA or knight, and cuirs. This more or less a intuition, not much of a formula or anything.

Using this trick will get a lot GGs and exp, not to mention cause AI building more unit to compensate those die.

 

[Seraiel]

I think GGs get attacked even at low winning odds. We had something like that in "Replay #6" , when an Archer attacked BigBossPlayer, BigBossPlayer being a Quechua-GG having 50% defense bonus from a Forrest. Still remember that the Archer only had something like 10% chances to win, and know from Churchil that he's not one having extremely high courage. So you're right, wounded and GG are 2 different things, not connected with each other.

Btw.: A way to spread religion while in war, could be gifting the units for it. Anyhow, I don't see a big reason why one should build Missionaries and gift them towards AI, with settings where are rare already. Getting a religion (CoL) is important, as being without a Religion would mean not using the bonuses available through it, and those are no doubt powerful. Doing some Math on AI Diplomacy would also be very promising, as I believe, there's still a way to keep them from getting all friendly, even with shared war. Key's would be taking AIs that don't love each other because of peaceweights (maybe take neutral AIs? ) and taking religious AIs, giving higher modifiers from different religions itself. Taking Mansa into that round, I regard as a failure, what one wants in such situations, are AIs with a high "TechTradeKnownPercent" and no shared favourite Civics. Technology flavour would also be something not being wanted by you. Look in the "Know Your Enemy" guide, to chose your AIs carefully. Ad hoc, I'm thinking, that Bismarck and Willem i. e. would be good pickings.

 

[ScorpionK]

@Seraiel: while at war, you can not gift AI any unit, even your missionary.

I don't dare to put Mana into OCC game that doesn't have choke point and gold gems start. It's simply too much.

I thought that if AI got the same peace weight, they will like each other even if that is neutral peaceweight??

 

[Doshin]

Religious auto-spread depends upon the existence of a trade network, and I think trade networks can exist prior to contact (and the ensuing DOW) thanks to Sailing or Astronomy. But this is a freak occurrence, and not the sort of thing that can be deliberately manipulated, unless you want to play a OCC, AW, isolation challenge (no thanks).

A shared war isn't necessarily enough for all AIs to become Friendly with one another. Warmongers can even declare war against their high-peaceweight allies, though both are at war with the player. I've played an AW game where Alexander and Montezuma each declared war against their war "buddy" Churchill.

Pairs like Montzeuma (bad peaceweight, zealot, 8 tech WFYABTA limit) and Pacal (so-so peaceweight, zealot, 8 tech WFYABTA limit) would help curb inter-AI tech trading.

 

[bhavv]

Oh I forgot I wanted to comment on this:

'Japan UB is not a strong one but in case we have to go for space, it will be needed.'

You should consider that the Shale Plant gives you power without coal, that means you can add clean power on top of national park without having to wait until plastics in an OCC.

Seems like a very strong civ choice for this kind of game for both the UU and UB, and take your pick from Sulieman or Cyrus as the leader.

 

[bhavv]

Heres a Cyrus of Japan map that works:

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

 

[ScorpionK]

My 2 cent.
Why did you make 2 tiles choke??

Shock promotion is not needed if you got forested hill choke.

And movement promotion (morale, IIRC) is not needed at the moment cause woodsman 3 already give you 2 moves.

Ah, never realize about shade plant give power without coal But with NP, health problem is gone so I guess it's not so important.

 

[ScorpionK]

Religious auto-spread depends upon the existence of a trade network, and I think trade networks can exist prior to contact (and the ensuing DOW) thanks to Sailing or Astronomy. But this is a freak occurrence, and not the sort of thing that can be deliberately manipulated, unless you want to play a OCC, AW, isolation challenge (no thanks).

A shared war isn't necessarily enough for all AIs to become Friendly with one another. Warmongers can even declare war against their high-peaceweight allies, though both are at war with the player. I've played an AW game where Alexander and Montezuma each declared war against their war "buddy" Churchill.

Pairs like Montzeuma (bad peaceweight, zealot, 8 tech WFYABTA limit) and Pacal (so-so peaceweight, zealot, 8 tech WFYABTA limit) would help curb inter-AI tech trading.

Ah, I forgot about Pacal. I thought about how fun will it be when I choose AI, seem like this mistake gonna be more serious that I expected. The AI trade around quite much, and it's only the beginning.

My new game will be truly brutal. Please cheer me up

 

[bhavv]

Shock promotion was for initial city defense, I didnt move to the choke right away, but it was a wasted promotion later on so I just used WB to change it to something else.

Morale + Leadership promotions were being put on asap to create a mobile offense stack. I wiped out two civs with just 5 GG upgraded samurai by 300 AD, and had another 2-3 GG samurai sent to the borders of other civs to soak up XP.

Got loads of Drill IV, Woodsman III, CR III, Combat III, March, Leadership, Morale Samurai which just tear through everything, and also I got rifling with liberalism at around 200 AD, but my GG Samurai were too far out to upgrade right away.

Heres the 310 AD save, well the second civ is almost wiped out, just 2 cities left being attacked by a single samurai each while the rest of my stack moves towards them.