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Sun Never Sets

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by imperialman, Aug 25, 2010.

  1. Xetal

    Xetal Chieftain

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    Arabia's UA could also be considered a naval ability for the mid-late game (2x oil). Russia's UA could also be considered a naval ability for the medieval game (2x iron).

    With the current amazingly poorly thought out one-way ranged bombardment it looks like the +2 movement might be quite strong though. With the previews we've seen, it is a system of "he who strikes first strikes last" where the only real important factor is bombarding the enemy before he bombards you. That kind of system promotes speed over everything (like the original Galactic Civilizations II before they realized that a "first strike wins" system was beyond stupid and changed it).
     
  2. Celevin

    Celevin King

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    If there was retaliation bombardment, you'd run into stupid situations where I park my 5-range ship 5 hexes away from your 4-range ship, and let you have it. It would make having 1 more range as valuable as having +100% strength. Which system's more stupid?
     
  3. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    Russia+Arabia's UAs are general military bonuses
    Russia...up to Renaissance.. and a slight benefit to modern
    Arabia...Industrial
     
  4. Xetal

    Xetal Chieftain

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    What has a 5 range bombardment in the game? What has a 4 range bombardment?

    Ancient bombardment up to cannon weapons have a range of 2, modern bombardment would have a range of 3. That in itself completely shatters your objection.
     
  5. Xetal

    Xetal Chieftain

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    Those general military bonuses provide more resources that are used by your navies.

    Another poster was commenting on the UAs that provided a naval bonus. Arabia and Russia both have UAs that provide naval bonuses during the game.
     
  6. Louis XXIV

    Louis XXIV Le Roi Soleil

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    I feel it wouldn't be very useful without it applying to them. One of the keys is that it gives allows you to sneak infantry around enemy positions by going by sea.

    I used to think this was combined with more powerful naval combat units, but they aren't necessarily more powerful. They are, however, able to reach your territory and bombard you quicker and can act as support for infantry (and retreat if necessary and get reinforced quicker if necessary).
     
  7. Churchill's Hat

    Churchill's Hat Mortal

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    Another good use of England's movement: bombard your enemy's ships, and then run away! Then you get a free shot and they can't catch you. Rinse and repeat if the AI decides to chase.
     
  8. Lyoncet

    Lyoncet Emperor

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    I don't think ships can move after bombarding. At least they're not tagged as such on Arioch's page, while some units (like Camel Archers) are, so I assume they can't.
     
  9. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    Yeah, would be potentially broken otherwise. I get the impression that bombarding always ends your turn, except for special cases like the camel archer.
     
  10. Lyoncet

    Lyoncet Emperor

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    Yeah, actually the only units I found that are flagged for that on Arioch's site are the Lancer, Naresuan's Elephant, the GDR, and the Camel Archer. And out of all those, the CA is the only one that has a bombard attack (I thought the GDR did, but the site has it's ranged attack as 0).

    So apparently no impunity on the hit-and-run aside from Classical-era Arabia. Assuming that's a comprehensive list. Incidentally, that means that they may be trying to make up for the Camel Archer being so lackluster in CIV all at once now. :lol:
     
  11. DeepQantas

    DeepQantas Chieftain

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    From what we've seen it takes something like three strikes to sink a ship.

    So if the enemy has four ships to your three, you can't beat him even with first strike. You'll sink one, then you're even and he'll proceed to win the battle.

    And England isn't even guaranteed first strike. +2 movement helps, but since ships move further than they can see, there can be a nasty surprise waiting in the fog of war.
     
  12. seasnake

    seasnake Conquistador

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    It should be really useful if you plan a strategy accordingly.
     
  13. Schuesseled

    Schuesseled Deity

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    I'm pretty sure theres a promotion that increases the range of ranged units.
     
  14. Schuesseled

    Schuesseled Deity

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    They don't provide a bonus to your navy, they give you extra resources, you can put thos into your navy, but thats not the same as a naval only bonus, which is what england has.
     
  15. Xetal

    Xetal Chieftain

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    From what we've seen with two equal frigates it was a 70% (of full health) hit from one to the other. This makes it so that one bombardment makes the ship nearly useless, and a second to kill.

    If it is only 20%ish damage then it would be manageable, but the last screenshots I saw show that is a very much "strike first and win" type of system.
     
  16. Xetal

    Xetal Chieftain

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    It provides resources used by your navy, allowing you to build more ships.

    If you want to argue that this is not a naval bonus, then you're making an argument that is completely semantic. You could use the same logic to say that Russia's bonus doesn't make your army stronger. It only gives you resources to make your army stronger... or that Romes bonus doesn't help you produce buildings faster, because you don't necessarily have buildings in your capital. Obviously those arguments are simply someone trying to argue on a technicality, which is your argument, and not on the reality of the game, which is my argument.
     
  17. Xetal

    Xetal Chieftain

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    I believe the only unit that has been seen on is a destroyer, increasing it's range from 2 to 3 (to match a battleship). Unless you have new information (which I would ask you to cite).

    Every unit I've seen before that period has 2 bombardment range. Every unit after has 3... which prevents a situation like the one that was described.
     
  18. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    Hopefully this ability is somewhat useful on all-land maps....
     
  19. CleverFool

    CleverFool Warlord

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    I think it's worth nothing that if the ability affects land units in transports it could allow very quick surprise attacks on the enemy. Imagine being able to circumvent an enemy strong point by just sailing around them, and doing so before they can do anything about it. In fact it would probably be faster to sail your units as much as you can versus walking them everywhere (typical movement of 2 for most units on land vs. potentially 4 if in a transport).

    Plus you don't actually need transports, and just about every units in England's arsenal can use the ability.
     
  20. DeepQantas

    DeepQantas Chieftain

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    Two hits to kill? That's certainly more brutal but not game breaking.


    Assuming each hit does 7 damage (when at full health) and you always get first strike...

    2 to 3 you can't win.

    3 to 4 ambush depends on how exactly the hp-loss-to-damage rules go. If each hp lost means -10% damage (1:1 ratio) then you'll win. If, however, 1 hp lost means only -5% damage (2:1 ratio) then you'll lose.

    4 to 5 ambush you'll win.


    So if the Combat rules allow favor spreading out damage you can ambush with 3 to 4 ratio and win. If Combat rules favor focus fire, you'll need 4 to 5 odds for ambushing.

    (I can post the battle simulations I did on paper if you want)


    edit: Ah heck, I'll just post em:
    Spoiler :

    Scenario 1.
    Base damage = 7. Hit point lost = -10% damage.
    Optimal to spread out your fire so as to avoid wasting damage on overkill.

    2 vs 3 battle:
    A: 10 10
    B: 10 3 3 (3hp does 2 damage)

    A: 6 3 (6 hp does 4 damage)
    B: 3 3 3

    A: 3 x
    B: 3 3 1

    A: dead
    B: Wins!

    --------------

    3 vs 4 battle:
    A: 10 10 10
    B: 10 3 3 3 (3hp does 2 damage)

    A: 10 4 3 (4hp does 3 damage)
    B: 3 3 1 x (1hp does 1 damage)

    A: 5 4 3 (5hp does 3 damage)
    B: dead

    A: Wins!

    --------------

    4 vs 5 battle:
    A: 10 10 10 10
    B: 10 3 3 3 3 (3hp does 2 damage)

    A: 8 8 8 1 (8hp does 6 dmg, 1hp does 1 dmg)
    B: 4 3 2 x x (4hp does 3 dmg, 2 does 1 dmg)

    A: 8 5 5 1
    B: dead

    A: Wins!

    --------------

    Extra 4 vs 5 battle. Rules favor spreading out the damage, but A decides to focus fire instead:
    A: 10 10 10 10
    B: 10 10 10 x x (This now looks like a 3vs4 fight with B having first strike)

    A: 10 3 3 3
    B: 10 8 x x x (8 does 6 dmg)

    A: 3 3 3 x
    B: 10 2 x x x (2 does 1 dmg)

    A: 3 2 x x
    B: 9 x x x x

    A: 2 x x x
    B: 8 x x x x

    A: dead
    B: Wins!


    Spoiler :

    Scenario 2.
    Base damage = 7. Hit point lost = -5% damage.
    Since even a damaged ship does 3.5 + 0.35*hp of damage it's optimal to focus and kill ships as soon as possible.

    2 vs 3 battle:
    A: 10 10
    B: 10 10 x

    A: 10 x
    B: 10 3 x

    A: dead
    B: Wins!

    --------------

    3 vs 4 battle:
    A: 10 10 10
    B: 10 10 3 x (3hp does 4 damage, enough to instakill with the help of a 10hp ship)

    A: 10 3 x
    B: 10 3 x x

    A: 3 x x
    B: 10 x x x

    A: dead
    B: Wins!

    --------------

    4 vs 5 battle:
    A: 10 10 10 10
    B: 10 10 10 x x (This is equivalent to 3vs4 battle with B having first strike)

    A: 10 10 3 x
    B: 10 3 x x x

    A: 10 3 x x
    B: 3 x x x x

    A: 10 x x x
    B: dead

    A: Wins!

    --------------

    Extra 4 vs 5 battle. Rules favor focus fire but A decides to spread out the damage instead:
    A: 10 10 10 10
    B: 10 3 3 3 3

    A: 10 10 x x (oops, I think we can see where this is going)
    B: 3 3 3 3 x

    A: 6 x x x
    B: 3 3 3 x x

    A: dead
    B: Wins!
     

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