Surrendered Moscow!

[Finmaster]

"There is just one man in history who has gotten Moscow itself to surrender", said my history professor. "That man was the Finnish general Jacob De La Gardie during the early 17th century, fighting against Russia under the Swedish crown".

I also found a booksource regarding Fenno-Swedish relations to Russia confirming that De La Gardie would indeed be a man held responsible for the fall of Moscow during those battles. I'd imagine it happened during the Ingrian War (1610-17), when Sweden rose to the peak of its power and took away Russia's access to the Baltic Sea for a century.

However, Wikipedia claims that the city fell to Poles, and not to Swedes, during the Ingrian war.

Is my information incorrect? Is Wikipedia's information incorrect? Or is it just that De La Gardie, altough officially under the Swedish crown, was for some reason temporarily working for the Poles?

Help me, please, so I can show off to my history professor.

 

[Cuchullain]

De La Gardie, and his Russian allies (under Prince Mikhail Skopin-Shuisky) were defeated by the Poles, and most of their army was either killed or surrendered at the Battle Of Klushino. Moscow surrendered to the Poles, who installed Wladislaw, the son of their king Zygmunt III Vaasa, as Tsar (albeit, for a very brief time).

The Swedish King Charles IX also had one of his sons (Prince Carl Philip, younger brother of Gustavus Adolphus) installed as Tsar for a brief time, though he enjoyed even less support than Wladislaw had.

I have read that De La Gardie was Estonian, though, not Finnish.

 

[Reno]

From what I know (And what my History teachers have told.) "Laiska Jaakko" De La Gardie was indeed responcible for leading the Swedish capture of Moscow. The Swedish forces left Moscow after the peace of Stolbova was signed, in 1617, and Sweden gained the area of Ingria, the area which it lost in the Great Nordic War (See my history article, the link to it is in the History Article list sticky thread.).

De La Gardie, and his Russian allies (under Prince Mikhail Skopin-Shuisky) were defeated by the Poles

De La Gardie, "Laiska Jaakko", was a Swedish (Though Finnish) general, not Russian.

 

[Verbose]

From what I know (And what my History teachers have told.) "Laiska Jaakko" De La Gardie was indeed responcible for leading the Swedish capture of Moscow. The Swedish forces left Moscow after the peace of Stolbova was signed, in 1617, and Sweden gained the area of Ingria, the area which it lost in the Great Nordic War (See my history article, the link to it is in the History Article list sticky thread.).



De La Gardie, "Laiska Jaakko", was a Swedish (Though Finnish) general, not Russian.

The De La Gardie family was originally south French and the famliy name was d'Escouperie. Jacob's father was Pontus d'Escouperie (sieur de la Gardie, one of the family estates), born in Languedoc (dept. Aude) in 1520. He entered Danish service in 1563, was captured by the Swedes in 1565 upon which he entered Swedish service, eventually becoming "baron" ("friherre", less than a count IIRC) of Ekholmen, in Finland, in 1571.

Pontus was a mercenary with a knack for treason. He dumped the king of Denmark for the king of Sweden, Erik XIV, and was highly esteemed by Erik, only to betray him when his brothers dukes Johan and Karl rebelled. Johan, now Johan III, gave him Ekholmen as a reward for services rendered.

 

[Finmaster]

De La Gardie, and his Russian allies (under Prince Mikhail Skopin-Shuisky) were defeated by the Poles, and most of their army was either killed or surrendered at the Battle Of Klushino. Moscow surrendered to the Poles, who installed Wladislaw, the son of their king Zygmunt III Vaasa, as Tsar (albeit, for a very brief time).

The Swedish King Charles IX also had one of his sons (Prince Carl Philip, younger brother of Gustavus Adolphus) installed as Tsar for a brief time, though he enjoyed even less support than Wladislaw had.

I thought Sweden fought against Russia during the Ingrian War? At least they got a lot of territory from them in the treaty of 1617..

So when king Charles had his son installed as the Tsar.. was Moscow first surrendered to Sweden and De La Gardie? Thats the question I'm trying to get answered here..

I have read that De La Gardie was Estonian, though, not Finnish.

The fact that he was born in Estonia doesn't make him Estonian. He moved to Finland - where his family was from - at a young age.

 

[Squonk]

I do not recall Swedes capturing Moscow.
It was captured by Poles. First an army gathered by some polish aristocrates put a self-claimed son of Ivan the Terrible, Dymitr was installed, and the tzarine was a Polish girl (well, she is probably of Ruthenian origin, her surname sounds kind of like that). Then he was dethronised, and another self-claimed Dymitr defeated, so Moscow was captured by official polish forces supporting the candidature of Wladyslaw, son of king Zyhmunt III Waza (a Swede of polish mother and the legal, though illegally dethronised, king of Sweden).

 

[Squonk]

oh, and mongols captured and pillaged Moscow a couple of times.
Lithuanians reached it at least once before the union with Poland, and one of their dukes, was it Giedymin or Olgierd (Algerdas?), strucked the gate as a sign of his dominance over it, but I think they have never really captured it.

 

[Verbose]

I do not recall Swedes capturing Moscow.

Here's the deal.

It's right smack in the middle of Russia's "Great Turmoil". Of course the Swedes are trying to get something out of it. (One plan was to make king Gustavus Adolphus younger brother Czar.)

As this is a Russian civil war, Sweden backed one of the factions, in this case Czar Vasily Shushky. Which meanst Jacob de la Gardie, commanding a Swedish army, in early 1608 linked up with his Russian allies under prince Mikael Skopin Shusky (sp?).

Together they fought their way to Moscow — fighting Poles, Cossacks and and the supporters of "the false Dimitry. Dunno if they lost more than they won here, but they made it to Moscow. Where they had to fight some more before de la Gardie and prince Shushky could enter the city in March 1610.

That's what's meant by "capturing Moscow" here, but since this was done to thwart the Poles and was all done with Russian backing, it might not "apply" quite as people would think

 

[das]

I thought Sweden fought against Russia during the Ingrian War?

Technically it was a very confusing time - not just the Russian Time of Troubles itself but the entire first half of the 17th century. Its pretty hard to say who fought whom throughout all this time as alliances and allegiences changed very very fast. Both Poland and Sweden at first landgrabbed in Russia, but later, when the threat of a Polish Russia emerged, Sweden had to counteract that and thus signed a separate peace with Pozharsky's "popular front".

As for Moscow, the FAMOUS capture was the Polish one ofcourse, at least, it is known as such here. Incidentally its quite famous indeed over here, at least now that it was declared a national holiday (well, not the capture itself, but rather the REcapture, but still). Not sure about other captures, but, ofcourse, Pseudodemetrius did capture the city first, and only then broke with the Poles and lost the city. Other rebels don't seem to have been as fortunate, actually, so perhaps there were two captures - one, by Shuisky and his ragtag, Polish-backed mercenaries that might as well have included some Swedes, another, by the Polish army.

 

[Verbose]

perhaps there were two captures - one, by Shuisky and his ragtag, Polish-backed mercenaries that might as well have included some Swedes, another, by the Polish army.

Actually there were 5000 Swedes, as per spec. in the treaty of alliance between the Russian Czar and the Swedish govt. The reason this gets attention their side of the Baltic is that the Swedes did go into Moscow and occupy it, never mind under what curcumstances the city was captured. It's the occupation that has been counted.

And after occupying Moscow (or safe-keeping on behalf of the Czar perhaps is more apt) de la Gardie marched out and in the summer of 1610 got his ass so roundly kicked by the Poles, he could only save his army by seeking terms. And the Poles demanded the Swedes stop backing the Czar altogether, which they from then on never did again.

The Swedes did alright for themselves anyway, capturing Novgorod and a number of prominent places from the Russians. They got to keep quite a bit of the booty in the end, which is why it has always been considered a successful Swedish war.

 

[Ace]

With all this surrendering and capturing of Moscow, did everyone forget about Napoleon?

 

[Squonk]

It was too obvious to mention

 

[das]

Napoleon is a bit irrelevant; we're talking about the Time of Troubles here.

And after occupying Moscow (or safe-keeping on behalf of the Czar perhaps is more apt) de la Gardie marched out and in the summer of 1610 got his ass so roundly kicked by the Poles, he could only save his army by seeking terms. And the Poles demanded the Swedes stop backing the Czar altogether, which they from then on never did again.

Tiny problem, as of 1610 there was no proper Tsar, unless we count Shuisky. I suppose that we could, as he was in control of Moscow as of 1610, even though elsewhere his authority was nonexistant.

 

[Verbose]

Tiny problem, as of 1610 there was no proper Tsar, unless we count Shuisky. I suppose that we could, as he was in control of Moscow as of 1610, even though elsewhere his authority was nonexistant.

Yes, yes. This was Bedlam at the time, with too many "Czars".

Shuisky was the one Sweden was backing at the mo. Which raises the question to what extent he can be thought of as a Swedish proxy?

Once forced to drop Shusky the Swedes didn't actually stop meddling in Russian internal affairs.

 

[Domen]

"That man was the Finnish general Jacob De La Gardie during the early 17th century, fighting against Russia under the Swedish crown".

Those were the Poles who captured Moscow (and Polish generals).

De La Gardie was the commander of the Swedish army which supported the Muscovites against Polish invasions in the early 17th century.

Henry Brereton was a British soldier who - with 2,000 other Scottish and English soldiers - volunteered as a mercenary to the Swedish army of King Charles IX and in May 1609 came to Sweden. Henry Brereton then fought against Poles in Russia, including the battle of Klushino in 1610.

Here is Brereton's description of the battle of Klushino from his "Newes of the present miseries of Rushia" (which can be found in a book from the links below):

http://archive.org/details/cu31924028446072

http://ia700309.us.archive.org/10/items/cu31924028446072/cu31924028446072.pdf

Brereton about the battle of Klushino:

==========================================

And such an interesting opinion from Henry Brereton:

 

[Glassfan]

You gotta love these threads. Hey guys, I misplaced my car keys, can you help? It's a Saturn - an American car - but many of the parts are actually manufactured in Asia and Europe. The key itself is American, possibly Canadian, but certainly associates frequently with other of my American keys and my electronic fob who's components are certainly Taiwanese. The key and it's fellow travelers were last seen in a midwestern province of North America, possibly Ohio or Indiana - named after the Portuguese navagator Ponce de la Indianapolis, who was Dutch, or somebody else...

Oh, wait. Here they are! Never mind.

 

[Domen]

And I must say that I like that archaic version of English (or is it some Scottish dialect)?

I'm talking about the language of the account written by Beretron. Is it Old English?

Rushia (not Russia), betweene (between), souldiers (soldiers), warre (war), losse (loss), brauely (bravely), etc.

And also Swethland (instead of Sweden). On the other hand, for Poland and Poles he uses the same words as in modern English.

But in another account from that book (written by anonymous English cavalrymen) there are "Polanders" instead of Poles.

 

[emzie]

And I must say that I like that archaic version of English (or is it some Scottish dialect)?

I'm talking about the language of the account written by Beretron. Is it Old English?

Rushia (not Russia), betweene (between), souldiers (soldiers), warre (war), losse (loss), brauely (bravely), etc.

And also Swethland (instead of Sweden). On the other hand, for Poland and Poles he uses the same words as in modern English.

But in another account from that book (written by anonymous English cavalrymen) there are "Polanders" instead of Poles.

That's early modern English. Think of it as antiquated and non-standardization.

Slight aside, it sometimes still astounds me the amount of change that happened from Chaucer's middle English (1390s ish) which is understandable with some patience and Shakespeare (1590s) and how little English has changed in the subsequent 400+ years.

edit: oh, the first image literally dates it as published in 1614. Missed that >.<

 

[Verbose]

You gotta love these threads. Hey guys, I misplaced my car keys, can you help? It's a Saturn - an American car - but many of the parts are actually manufactured in Asia and Europe. The key itself is American, possibly Canadian, but certainly associates frequently with other of my American keys and my electronic fob who's components are certainly Taiwanese. The key and it's fellow travelers were last seen in a midwestern province of North America, possibly Ohio or Indiana - named after the Portuguese navagator Ponce de la Indianapolis, who was Dutch, or somebody else...

Oh, wait. Here they are! Never mind.

Hey, it's what anyone should except, if there is an attempt made to cast an early modern history European conflict — dynastic and religious for the most part — in terms approaching 19th c. nationalism...

 

[Domen]

From wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_De_la_Gardie

==============================

Jacob Pontusson De la Gardie (Reval, 20 June 1583 - Stockholm, 22 August 1652) was a statesman and a soldier of the Swedish Empire.

(...)

As a young adult, De la Gardie was held prisoner in Poland for four years, together with Carl Gyllenhielm. After being released, De la Gardie took part of the Dutch Revolt as a volunteer.[1] Between 1606 and 1608, De la Gardie served under the Dutch general Maurice of Nassau, Prince of Orange. Impressed with the Dutch way of waging war, De la Gardie began introducing Dutch methods into the Swedish army upon his return to the service of Sweden.

During the Polish-Russian War (1605-1618), Sweden signed an alliance with tsar Vasili IV of Russia in 1609. Sweden promised to send troops to the tsar and gained, in return, the County of Kexholm. De la Gardie was put in command of the Swedish force, which consisted of mostly mercenaries, but Swedish and Finnish soldiers as well. This campaign, which eventually took De la Gardie and his troops all the way to Moscow, is known as the De la Gardie Campaign. It ended with a devastating defeat at the Battle of Klushino in the summer of 1610, from which De la Gardie had to retreat.[1]

Not long thereafter, the Ingrian War between Sweden and Russia was initiated, during which De la Gardie played a significant part militarily. He also claimed that Sweden should take advantage of the on-going turmoil in Russia, later known as the Times of Trouble, and try to place Charles Philip, younger brother of the Swedish king Gustavus Adolphus, on the Russian throne. After some negotiating, these plans were abandoned due to lack of engagement from Gustavus Adolphus and uncertainty on the Russian side.[2]

In 1617, De la Gardie became the chief Swedish negotiator at the Treaty of Stolbovo that ended the Ingrian War, whereby Sweden was able to secure important territorial concessions from Russia, effectively closing off Russia from access to the Baltic Sea.

Between July 1619 and 1622 was Governor of the Swedish Estonia and in 1626 De la Gardie purchased an estate with a medieval castle in Haapsalu, in modern-day Estonia. His time as governor of Estonia was followed by a time as Governor-General of Swedish Livonia 1622-1628.

After 1621, De la Gardie took part in the Polish-Swedish War against his mother's half-brother King Sigismund III of Poland (former king of Sweden) in Livonia, but he was recalled after serving as commander in chief between 1626 and 1628. De la Gardie was an advocate of peace with Poland and acted as one of the Swedish negotiators at the Truce of Stuhmsdorf in 1635.

=====================================

From wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingrian_War

Prelude:

During Russia's Time of Troubles, Charles IX of Sweden sent an expeditionary corps under Jacob De la Gardie to capture the Russian fortress of Old Ladoga. On hearing about their arrival to Ingria, the Novgorodians asked the king to install one of his sons &#8212; Carl Filip or Gustavus Adolphus &#8212; as their monarch and on this understanding submitted the city to De la Gardie.

Vasily IV besieged in Moscow by the Tushino gang and driven to despair by the ongoing Polish intervention, then entered an alliance with Charles IX, who was also waging war vs Poland. The tsar promised to cede Korela Fortress to Sweden in recompense for military support against False Dmitry II and the Poles. Thereupon De la Gardie joined his forces with the Russian commander Mikhail Skopin-Shuisky and marched from Novgorod towards Moscow in order to relieve the tsar.

Sweden's involvement into the Russian affairs gave Sigismund III Vasa a pretext to declare war on Russia. The Poles engaged the combined Russo-Swedish forces at Klushino and destroyed most of the Russian force; the Swedish mercenaries taking part in the De la Gardie Campaign (July 1610) surrendered. The battle had serious consequences for Russia, as the tsar was deposed by boyars and the Poles occupied the Kremlin.

Fighting:

In the meantime, Gustavus Adolphus succeeded to the Swedish throne. The young king decided to press his brother's claim to the Russian throne even after the Poles had been expelled from Moscow by a patriotic uprising of 1612 and Mikhail Romanov had been elected a new tsar.

While the Swedish statesmen envisaged the creation of a Trans-Baltic dominion extending northwards to Archangelsk and eastwards to Vologda, De la Gardie and other Swedish soldiers, still holding Novgorod and Ingria, saw the war as a reaction for their forces not receiving payment for their succour during the De la Gardie Campaign.

In 1613 they advanced towards Tikhvin and laid a siege to the city, but were repelled. The Russian counter-offensive failed to regain Novgorod, however. The Russian tsar refused to commit his troops to battle and the war lumbered on until 1614, when the Swedes captured Gdov.

The following year they laid siege to Pskov but Russian generals Morozov and Buturlin held their own until 27 February 1617, when the Treaty of Stolbovo stripped Russia of its access to the Baltic Sea and awarded to Sweden the province of Ingria with the townships of Ivangorod, Jama, Koporye and Noteborg. Novgorod and Gdov were to be restituted to Russia.

As a result of the war, Russia was denied access to the sea for about a century, despite its persistent efforts to reverse the situation.

=====================================

To summ up - Swedish armies never captured Moscow. Nor did this Finnish general.

In the initial part of the Ingrian War - Sweden was not fighting vs Russia, but vs Poland (and her few Russian supporters / traitors).

About the battle of Klushino some information can be found here:

http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/17...hariots-against-infantry.html?start=90#331245

http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/7-off-topic/320723-polish-hussars.html#331328