TAM BTS v0.82 Released!

Exactly, plus scythians stables (+4 xp) and conscription (+2 xp).

Would it be quicker to send you my save file?

PasLef

Sorry I forgot the Conscripton Civic.

Remember the point is ALL those factors apply to a single city, not all cities.

Conscription Civic = 2xps (all cities)

Heroic Epic = 2xps (single city)

Military Advisor = 2xps (single city) (multiple advisors in a single city are possible)

Barracks = 2xps (single city)

Total Single City = 8xps (melee units) in city with Heroic Epic, MA, Barracks with Conscription Civic

Total Single City = 6xps (cavalry units) in city with Heroic Epic, MA, Barracks with Conscription Civic

Only the city with Heroic Epic can reach the above equations, any other city will top out at 6xps per equation (unless you install multiple MAs)

you have to look at the situation city by city, not across the board.

does that clarify things?[/QUOTE]

It does and my question remains. I have this city with Heroic Epic and all the above plus scytian stables and it still gives me scythian cav with 6 xps.

PasLef
 
3 points i noticed :
- church of nativity can only be built if state religion is christianism, while religious wonders from other religions can be built whatever your religion
- carthaginian war elephant are really underestimated by Dido when played by IA
- pikemen seems really weak to me, armored spearman is as much powerful (-1 power, but bonus vs archery and +5%more city defense) while built eras ago.
 
Sweet, we finally got an update. I'll have to play a game tomorrow.

Where does the map file get downloaded?

What I like to do is create a PrivateMaps folder in the TAM mod folder. This keeps my list of scenarios cleaner when I play other mods or plain old bts.
 
I'll have to give the private maps a try. Thanks for the idea.
 
3 points i noticed :
- church of nativity can only be built if state religion is christianism, while religious wonders from other religions can be built whatever your religion
- carthaginian war elephant are really underestimated by Dido when played by IA
- pikemen seems really weak to me, armored spearman is as much powerful (-1 power, but bonus vs archery and +5%more city defense) while built eras ago.

Hi! I'm a long time fan of TAM, and have been self-religated lately to lurking.
As to your first comment, I recently played the Egyptians, and noted that I had to switch to the religion of the holy city prior to being able to construct the holy wonder. However, I was free to later switch to another religion and still maintain the benefit of the wonder. Was this not true in your game? I tried many times, and each time (built three religious wonders, animism, heliopolitan, and mesopotamian) I had to switch to the wonder's religion first.

The AI, in general does not seem to favor its UU as much as they should. Julius Ceasar doesn't get his UU rolling until 500ish AD, lol. However, when I play, I can swing the first Legionaires out around 700BC. I think this has something to do with the emphasis on acquiring new civics for expansion. The AI always favors improved civics over units (been my experience ever since civics were introduced in the civilization franchise). So, perhaps the emphasis on civics needs to be adjusted, and more weight put towards getting their UUs out in a more advantageous time frame.

I whole-heartedly agree about Armored Spearmen. LOL, am I the only one that thinks they are one of the most powerful units in the game?

I have yet to actually play with the latest patch, but under .72, I am still holding myself back, because over-expansion will kill my economy, not because the AI can stop me. I did review your changes for the latest version, and it will just mean that I will need more Javelineers and Chariot-Archers, and now I need more Rams (I applaud that change for sure!).

However, gunning for Armored Spearmen is still a great tactic. A couple of them in your border cities, and the AI will leave you alone until they get Cavalry.

My general strategy is to expand first, then build wonders in a few core cities while my outer ring focuses on militaristic needs. Start small and expand in "pulses." In Normal Speed though, I was getting hammered once the AI got to Cavalry. Now, it seems like the AI has gotten weaker. My guess is that this was unintentional.

I play on Monarch typically. I also find that the game is much more balanced on Epic speed. Normal starts to feel like a War Craft or Command and Conquer game. I also play on the huge and Standard maps, and find that I enjoy the resource distribution much more on the Standard map. Resources seem so scarce or spread out in the Huge map, especially in Africa.

Finally, Rome...please figure out why Rome under AI control doesn't get off its peninsula in the Huge map. It may be an economic issue, I'm not sure. I know that I play around 20-50% research for about 70% of the game myself, and that's with the best civics, and a tailored research path to ensure that I don't go bankrupt. Money and commerce are my main focus early on. However, I think the AI is bankrupting themselves with over-expansion. This last fact is especially evident in the huge map. Again, however, the above is predicated on my experience with the previous version. I will download this version and test then come back here and report my findings.

I love this mod.

Please keep up all of your hard work!
 
Is there a particular reason why the bonus resource prerequisites for units are absent from Tam.
Removing these removes an important strategic element from the game, not to mention rendering resources like copper and tin virtually meaningless.
Also does anyone else think that gold and silver resources should generate more income?
Historically, access to gold (and especially silver) deposites was of major importance.
The silver mines at Laurium basically payed for the entire Athenian fleet which was crucial to the Greek victory in the Persian war.
 
Another idea which would really add to the flavour of playing in the ancient world is some way to simulate the citizen soldier of Greece and Republican Rome (as well as many other smaller civilizations in the area) perhaps they could be really quick to build (as each citizen was responsible for maintaining his own training and equipment even in peace time) but cause a reduction in population (like drafting but without the unhappiness or the requirement for a city to be of size 6 or greater) also they should be able to rejoin their city once the war is over.
Not sure how hard that would be to do bit I think it would greatly enhance the feel of the game for the greeks and romans
 
Socrateas07 and kwarriorpoet,

Great posts guys, some of the most thoughtful comments ive seen, they are much appreciated. But dont think that the version .074 thru .082 is even a finished product, it is merely a working engine. A lot of hard work is going on behind the scenes right now in all the areas of balance game play, from Civics, Units to the Tech Tree. Simply put the balance achieved in Vanilla, went out the window when it was imported into BTS, so everybody on the team is going back to the basics and redrawing.

Please keep the ideas and thoughts coming, good things are coming.
 
Hi guys
Firstly, to the development team, fantastic job so far. I never play any other mod any more, Tam is just so good.
However I have been making some modifications to Tam bts 0.82 (just for my own use)
The aforesaid resource prerequisites for units along with reducing settler movement to 1 in order to make it necessary to use ships to colonize areas at greater distances
I was wondering if anyone had any ideas on how to make bts let you liberate cities at any time (making them independant, not giving them to other civs)?
I'm trying to reproduce Greek colonisation of the mediterranean but whenever i found a city far from my capital the only option is to cede control of it to a nearby civ and even that option disappears after a few turns.
I want to be able to make them independant colonies.
Any thoughts or help in doing this would be really appreciated.
 
Hi guys
Firstly, to the development team, fantastic job so far. I never play any other mod any more, Tam is just so good.
However I have been making some modifications to Tam bts 0.82 (just for my own use)
The aforesaid resource prerequisites for units along with reducing settler movement to 1 in order to make it necessary to use ships to colonize areas at greater distances
I was wondering if anyone had any ideas on how to make bts let you liberate cities at any time (making them independant, not giving them to other civs)?
I'm trying to reproduce Greek colonisation of the mediterranean but whenever i found a city far from my capital the only option is to cede control of it to a nearby civ and even that option disappears after a few turns.
I want to be able to make them independant colonies.
Any thoughts or help in doing this would be really appreciated.


This requires an SDK change, such as the one described in this post

I just incorporated this in to my modmod of FfH, but haven't actually had time to test to see if it works yet.
 
@Socrates07 and Graywarden and Magister...does the "colony" aspect of BTS work in TAM yet? I don't see any mention of it in these forums so far, but I know it's part of BTS and in vanilla BTS, I use it quite frequently. However, this could work to accomplish the Greek and indeed Phoenician colonization realism.
 
Graywarden, et. al:

Have you play tested the Huge map with raging barbarians? I downloaded the latest version, fulling understanding the impacts of your changes, and wondered what impact they might have on the AI. Here are my results, based on Monarch difficulty, Huge TAM map, raging barbarians and aggressive AI.

1) The AI still wants to build Javelineers ASAP, but now keeps them in their cities or in defensive postures defending resources and workers.

2) In previous versions of TAM for BTS, the AI could reliably use Javelineers to control Barbarians. This is not true any more. Case in point, my current game. It is around 1200 BC. The thracians have been destroyed, Carthage is in serious Jeopardy, Egypt is seriously struggling, and all of the middle east is infested with Barbarians streaming toward Assyria, Babylon, Persia, and the Menedes.

Ok, so maybe Raging barbarians is normally hard on the Huge map, but I've done it before in other games with earlier versions of TAM for BTS, and not noticed devistation on this scale ever until now. My personal belief is that the change to the Javelineer is too severe for the AI. If they can't kill the warrior, then they will now retreat, but be severely wounded, meaning that they stand a very high chance of dieing on the next turn. If they are in a city, then the AI will defend with them, but not counter attack now. So...the only offensive units any AI have for a long time are Archers and Warriors, and given the randomness of combat in 1 to 1 or 2 to 3 odds combat situation, and the shear numbers of Barbarians, I can see why the recent changes to the Javelineer has decreased the early survival chances of the AI.

However, perhaps the Raging barbarians option should be eliminated? I would prefer that Javelineers be reset to prior conditions, but leave the rest as is.

Perhaps the Huge map needs more Civs, lol, to fill in the space, especially in the north eastern section, the Indian subcontinent, and Western Africa?

Crowded areas do well against the Barbarians.

Again, though, maybe I should just ignore the Raging barbarians option. However, I do still believe that the AI is crippled without the early offensive unit, the Javelineer, as it used to be.
 
Personally I really like the changes to javelineers, it ads a really interesting new tactical element, it might even be good to extend the change to things like horse archers which historically were used principally in harrying actions (they should have really good retreat odds except against other cavalry)
A more difficult but better option than changing the javelineers back or removing raging barbarians would be to work on the AI, perhaps making it so that they build more offensive units.
In fact the emphasis on defensively strong units in TAM as a whole has always been a bit of a problem, it makes for a far too stable situation.
 
@Socrates07 and Graywarden and Magister...does the "colony" aspect of BTS work in TAM yet? I don't see any mention of it in these forums so far, but I know it's part of BTS and in vanilla BTS, I use it quite frequently. However, this could work to accomplish the Greek and indeed Phoenician colonization realism.

So far I haven't managed to create any independant colonies in TAM, the only liberation option I get is to cede control of the cities to another civ. It would be really good if someone could work on making it possible to create an independant colony from any city.
 
No Im pretty sure the colonies are not working. There hasnt even been a discussion yet that im aware of, but maybe now there will be..... ;o)

And No I generally dont play with Raging Barbarians...... haha.... there are enough gameplay balances to work on without adding them in the mix right now.... haha

There is a lot of work going on right now in the TAMDEV group. Dont even think the version your running now is even close to done.......

Thanks for all the great input, happy TAMing, and better TAMing to come.
 
Hi all,

Love the mod. In fact, I only like to play in this time period! Anyway, I'm not sure where it originates, but I miss some XPs on military units that I produce. I play the Scythians, have their special stable that should give 4 XPs, have a legendary instructor that should give +2 XPs, Conscription that should add another 2 XPs, a National Wonder (think its National Epic?) that should give another +2, a barrack that should give another +2... So If I had all that, it should give 12 XPs but I only get 6 XPs... Is something wrong?

THX

Paslef,

Just wanted to give you an update. I did test as the Scythians, and you are correct, the xps are not being given out as they should. Thanks for the report, hope to have it fixed next patch.

Happy TAMing
 
Is there a way to ensure that weapon upgrades (via smithies) are done automatically once you have access to the appropriate technology and resource? I am encountering the age-old situation of an old unit, sitting in a city that builds a smithy with access to copper gets the copper upgrade, but receives nothing else, unless I activate the unit, move it out of the city, and then back in.

Nothing ruins your day like trying to defend with an armoured spearman with copper against iron or steel.....
 
Graywarden, you're doing an awesome job as a frontman for the TAM team :) Thank you for your quick responses.

Socrates07 is onto something there that I believe I missed in my earlier comment concerning Javelineers. Perhaps my comment just needs to be simplified...rephrased? But Socvrates07 hits the nail on the head I think. It's not so much the actual change to the Javelineer, but how the AI is using it, and how the AI is adapting (or not as the case may be) to the changes you're rolling in trying to create a tactical game with depth and diversity.

(I'm doing a horrible job of simplifying this aren't I, lol!)

What I'm trying to say is that after the recent changes to the Javelineer, I can roll up on Hiram of the Phoenecians with an army of 4 raider buffed warriors and snuff him out, because he doesn't go for Archery, but rather for Woodworking. This also means that I can steal 3-4 workers from him before I have to worry about any significant counter strikes. Not only that, but I find myself restraining my expansionistic desires not out of mortal fear, but due to the poor state of economic affairs early in the game. (I actually like this form of balancing to some degree.)

However, with a tweak in AI behavior, I would think twice or more before casually raiding workers.
 
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