New Civ Game Guide: Ming China

[Eagle Pursuit]

If it's the same infrastructure in the modern era I predict riots!

Yeah, at that point they would have gone too far. I have no idea what they have planned for Qing, but I expect it to break away from the Han and Ming sameness.

 

[ehecatzin]

I would asume that modern is the age when the traditional fortification gives way to other form of defense, like Star forts, I hope we dont get Great wall on modern.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I would asume that modern is the age when the traditional fortification gives way to other form of defense, like Star forts, I hope we dont get Great wall on modern.

Since the last, stone-built, best-known portions of the wall were built by the Ming, anything after that would be redundant Fantasy. Right now, having 'Great Wall' built from Antiquity to Exploration Ages covers neatly the approximately 1800-year history of wall construction in China - although I could wish that the 'Han Wall' was shown in Rammed Earth rather than stone, which would be much more visually appropriate.

A Modern Age replacement could be the Maginot Line, buildable by anyone, BUT as soon as you build a single tile of it, it prohibits you from building any Tank or Bomber units for the rest of the game . . .

 

[Zaarin]

A Modern Age replacement could be the Maginot Line, buildable by anyone, BUT as soon as you build a single tile of it, it prohibits you from building any Tank or Bomber units for the rest of the game . . .

And causes adjacent Independent Peoples to grant open borders to your enemies. Cannot be built along the borders of an IP's territory.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

And causes adjacent Independent Peoples to grant open borders to your enemies. Cannot be built along the borders of an IP's territory.

Not really. Belgium and the Netherlands actually put up what fight they could in May 1940, Luxembourg only had 7 men in their army so simply wasn't capable of any response, and Switzerland told the German General Staff flatly that if they attempted to invade every bridge and road in Switzerland would be demolished within 24 hours and that would only be the beginning of their troubles. The Germans, very astutely for once, took them at their word.

The major problem with Maginot's fortifications was that they sucked all the money out of the defense budge throughout the late 1930s and so delayed any modernization of the rest of the French forces: armor and air production and design and formation of new units that could use those weapons - which is what my little piece addressed.

IF the only way into your country is a narrow pass or isthmus that the "Maginot-like" fortifications can cover completely, you might get away with it: the Germans never did penetrate the Maginot fortifications, they went around them, after all.

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

I'll just put my historian hat on and add that the actual Ming trade history was much more complex than "insular."

Of course, Zheng He's endeavor was a unique one-time thing. However, the Ming was very much not insular - it was probably the most "open" Imperial Chinese dynasty, albeit reaching this openness very passively.

The Naval Trade Ban, for instance, was hardly implemented in Ming times, and the smuggling business began to boom right after the Treasure Fleets were canceled. This is because the early Ming currency was pepper, and the late Ming currency was silver, both of which needed to be imported (pepper from SAE, silver from Japan). The central govt tried to fight the smugglers to no avail, and in 1509, the southern Trade Ban was lifted in Guangzhou entirely. The powerful smugglers-turned-pirates even fought wars with the Ming on the eastern coast (the famous Wokou), eventually forcing the Ming to lift the eastern Trade Ban in 1567.

On the northern front, the Ming initiated a similar Trade Ban against the Mongols; the Mongols responded with two massive invasions - the Tumu Crisis in 1449 and the Altan Khan Wars in 1550-1570 - and nearly destroyed the active Ming military in both (even captured the Ming emperor in the first one). In 1571, the Ming govt finally came to terms with the Mongols and lifted the Ban, and the cross-border trade flourished until the end of Ming. Like the Naval Trade Ban, this Mongol trade ban was not strictly implemented, with people on the borders constantly smuggling trade goods into Mongols or escaping into Mongols. The famous Chinese merchant bloc, the Jin Merchants, developed from those illegal trades (and later legal trades) with the Mongols. Even the Ming officials who pushed for lifting the Ban in 1570-1571 came from the Jin Merchant backgrounds.

After both Bans were gone in the 1560s-70s, Ming entered a period of heavy involvement in early globalization. SAE pepper and Japanese silver flooded the Chinese market; Ming merchants were active in SAE and set up small colonies here and there; Ming officials began to convert to Christianity, learning Renaissance discoveries, adopting Western calendars, and buying Portuguese cannons to fight the Manchus. There is a reason why an Italian Jesuit, Matteo Ricci, could hold an office in the Ming court (1601-1610) and make friends with Ming officials around him.


In short, I would argue that a Ming design centered around the trade actually has a sound historical basis. Just that the basis is not about the state-sponsored Treasure Fleets, but the city-dwellers and the merchant class who drove the private trades and successfully pushed the dynasty to be more trade-friendly.

I admit it! "Insular" is the wrong word here - mea culpa. The tributary system certainly isn't insular. Perhaps "center-oriented" or at least "not sending out more large fleets". The silver trade and tribute system are certainly international affairs on some of the largest scales carried out in that time. My point was just about seeing Zheng He as not emblematic of Ming, but as a particular possibility within Ming that later Emperors did not follow.

 

[Atlas627]

Honestly, having a Treasure Fleet mechanic in the game at all is already a nod to Spain and Ming. What are the other Treasure Fleets we know of?

 

[8housesofelixir]

What do you think a design focusing on post-Yongle Ming could look like?

I might have mentioned it elsewhere, but personally, I would stress the importance of Shuyuan and Gunpowder-related institutions. The traditional Chinese Academies reached a new high in Ming (second only to Song times), creating new schools of thought and regional scholar communities here and there, even giving rise to a significant political network (the Donglin Party). And gunpowder is, of course, very emblematic of the Ming as a whole.

Another important aspect of the Ming was the rise of urban culture. The apex of the said culture was the booming print culture, which gave rise to the commercial literature, and the most important of which were the novels 小说 - most of the famous classical Chinese novels you ever heard of, such as the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, the Journey to the West, and the Plum in the Golden Vase were written in Ming times for consumption. In this case, I would suggest having the Private Printing House 书坊 as the UB.


Speaking of which, even for a Yongle-centered Ming design, there are still aspects worthy of covering that were outside the popular imagination. For instance, Yongle was known for applying "foreign" aspects to the Ming military. He created the Divine Engine Division, the first decided firearm unit in Chinese history, and whose name is now used as a Civic, from the Vietnamese firearm troops. Another powerful military unit he created, the Three Thousand Cavalry Division 三千营, was recruited from Mongolian and Muslim populations. Yongle was also heavily involved in the inter-Mongolian conflicts and allied with the Uriankhai tribes (known as the Three Guardian Tribes 三卫), which he could levy in war. All these developments were relatively unique to Yongle, and they gradually faded away after he died (which was why the Ming military was nearly wiped out by the Mongols in Tumubao in 1449).

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Tributary Trade was strictly state-sanctioned and could not be considered "private."

For instance, the foreign tributary delegation should file a report beforehand to the Ming government, listing their numbers and goods, then wait for the Ming side to approve and set up a price for the goods; if the Ming refused to trade, or decided to pay much less for the goods, the envoys cannot reject the deal normally. The first Mongol invasion I mentioned above was triggered by the Ming decision to strike down the horse payment to 1/5 of the original.

Most importantly, the Tributary Trades were more about the Suzerain-Tributary relationship than the trade. During such trades, Ming usually bought the tributary goods much higher than the market price - to show that they were "benevolent" suzerains - and sometimes, they just straightly handed out gold and silver to the delegations. For Ming officials, most of the Tributary Trades were too costly and only had marginal efforts for diplomacy. This is also why the Treasure Fleets were canceled after the Yongle; it was such a money sink that even Ming (then perhaps the richest country in the world) could not afford. Overall, we cannot really say these were market-oriented trades, which is why they require the modifier "tributary."

Ayutthaya was famously known to profit from this Tributary Trades. While Ming (and later Qing) demanded a tribute to be delivered once every three years. The 'Myth' said Kings of Ayutthaya misinterpret the decree and instead shipped tributes THRICE A YEAR! and the Emperor asked no more!
If this myth is true. this means Ayutthaya did indeed becomes Trade Middlemen to the wests, (not sure to whom? Dutch? Portuguese? or Middle Eastern Empires? (Either Persia or Ottomans).

 

[Uberfrog]

Exactly, which is why the treasure fleet mechanism feels off. There are two civs it could relate to historically, one of which was only for a specific leader that was swimming against the current of his civ.

Well, for how many civs is the old Space Race victory really relevant? We’ve already seen a Saturn V in Civ VII, and only one country historically managed a moon landing

I think the Treasure Fleet mechanic works, both as a nod to Spanish and Ming history, but also as an abstraction of colonial trade which is relevant to many possible Exploration Age powers that also gives the players some agency.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Ming is characterised by deleting maritime trade if anything. The originators of the famous sakoku policies adopted by Edo, Joseon (the Hermit Kingdom and all, tho I don't remember when and why) and Nguyen (starting with Minh Mang). Designate a few ports with explicit schedules and limits of ships, make travel into the interior illegal, flag anyone who leaves the country as a criminal marked for execution.

Wasn't Emperor Minh Mang an expansionist? who waged war against Siam (Rattanakosin Era) over Laotian Kingdoms and Cambodge? What was his reasons to impose an isolationist? a Chistophobia policy at that time? or even the fact that Catholic Viets already migrated to Siam and the Emperor believed them to be Siamese Spy within preexisting Dai Viet Empire?

Expansionism demans him to buy arms from the outsides. either from China or Britain? and supply their Divine Engine Corps?

 

[Mr Jon of Cheam]

The space race is clearly meant to be aspirational though, as a victory condition. No country has so far managed to land a human on Mars, let alone alpha centauri.

I get the idea behind treasure fleets, which is to make trade routes between the home land and new world dangerous and spicy (pun intended). That does fit the theme of the exploration era, and is a solid basis for a mechanic. I'm not sure not that calling it Treasure Fleets is great, because it brings to mind the Zheng He fleets (which we know aren't part of the Ming in game), the Spanish bringing back Gold and Silver from South America, and... nothing else? Not directly at least. I'm also worried that it's going to be fairly micromanagement heavy as it's spawning units that you have to move and escort / intercept.

I can't help but think that making it trade routes in a more abstract sense rather than units you have to move every turn would be better. And model it around the spice trade (which just about everyone tried to get involved in) rather than "treasure". Far more of colonisation was about trying to establish networks of trade posts and strategically placed harbours than protecting individual treasure ships, so why not have a mechanic focussed on that? The EU4 trade route model comes to mind - because it's truly fascinating and one of the best parts of a good game - although it doesn't need to be quite that intricate.

For example, make trade routes between resource-heavy DL cities and HL cities very lucrative. But, such trade routes have a maximum range of 15 hexes, so they can't reach. But, give exploration era trade routes the ability to "bounce" from friendly ports to increase their range. So now you want a line of settlements that stretch out between continents! Doesn't that look line European settlements in India or South Africa? You could have wars over those settlements, or even have diplomatic actions were allies can use each others ports for trade. Fighting over small towns on islands or on the edge of continent in order to keep the trade flowing feels more like the a broad exploration era theme, with more high level decisions rather than repetitive micromanagement, than shuffling treasure fleets from one city to another.

I don't really have a problem with how they've implemented the mechanic itself, but I wouldn't have called it treasure fleets either, agreed with you there.

 

[chaosprophet]

The Spice must flow fleets!! Makes special sense as spices is one of the treasure resources.

Now we need a scenario where spices is the only treasure resources, most of the map is desert and there is ridiculous strong barbarian creature units roaming the lands.

 

[ehecatzin]

the Spanish bringing back Gold and Silver from South America, and... nothing else? Not directly at least

When I think of the mechanic I think of the Nau de Manila, more about the fleets bringing spices and goods from Asia to America, then to Spain. but I agree as well, "Trade fleets" would serve the overall purpose for all civs, "Treasure fleet" is really reminecent of the Ming Fleet.

Maybe they just went for really obvious clarity, the Spanish treasure fleet is even shown comically filled up to the brim with Gold. personally I'd love it if "treasure fleets" would show up the resource It's carrying back home.

This made me wonder, for a ship that literally filled with treasure, I think a civ that loots on far away lands could spawn treasure ships to bring back home would be fun. Since the Spanish aren't getting this maybe the Norse could be the ones to get something like that?

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

When I think of the mechanic I think of the Nau de Manila, more about the fleets bringing spices and goods from Asia to America, then to Spain. but I agree as well, "Trade fleets" would serve the overall purpose for all civs, "Treasure fleet" is really reminecent of the Ming Fleet.

Maybe they just went for really obvious clarity, the Spanish treasure fleet is even shown comically filled up to the brim with Gold. personally I'd love it if "treasure fleets" would show up the resource It's carrying back home.

This made me wonder, for a ship that literally filled with treasure, I think a civ that loots on far away lands could spawn treasure ships to bring back home would be fun. Since the Spanish aren't getting this maybe the Norse could be the ones to get something like that?

That would be cool to have a civ with a Pillage -> Treasure Ship pipeline

 

[Evie]

I don't think the norse are a great fit for it, though - mostly because with the Normans already in exploration, I doubt the norse go to that age also. Far more likely the norse will find themselves as the precursor civ to the normans, so ancient. As odd as that can be timeline wise.

Could still pillage and get treasure fleet, but it would not be from distant lands.

The Maghreb and their barbary corsairs would however be solid candidates.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

The space race is clearly meant to be aspirational though, as a victory condition. No country has so far managed to land a human on Mars, let alone alpha centauri.

I get the idea behind treasure fleets, which is to make trade routes between the home land and new world dangerous and spicy (pun intended). That does fit the theme of the exploration era, and is a solid basis for a mechanic. I'm not sure not that calling it Treasure Fleets is great, because it brings to mind the Zheng He fleets (which we know aren't part of the Ming in game), the Spanish bringing back Gold and Silver from South America, and... nothing else? Not directly at least. I'm also worried that it's going to be fairly micromanagement heavy as it's spawning units that you have to move and escort / intercept.

I can't help but think that making it trade routes in a more abstract sense rather than units you have to move every turn would be better. And model it around the spice trade (which just about everyone tried to get involved in) rather than "treasure". Far more of colonisation was about trying to establish networks of trade posts and strategically placed harbours than protecting individual treasure ships, so why not have a mechanic focussed on that? The EU4 trade route model comes to mind - because it's truly fascinating and one of the best parts of a good game - although it doesn't need to be quite that intricate.

For example, make trade routes between resource-heavy DL cities and HL cities very lucrative. But, such trade routes have a maximum range of 15 hexes, so they can't reach. But, give exploration era trade routes the ability to "bounce" from friendly ports to increase their range. So now you want a line of settlements that stretch out between continents! Doesn't that look line European settlements in India or South Africa? You could have wars over those settlements, or even have diplomatic actions were allies can use each others ports for trade. Fighting over small towns on islands or on the edge of continent in order to keep the trade flowing feels more like the a broad exploration era theme, with more high level decisions rather than repetitive micromanagement, than shuffling treasure fleets from one city to another.

Limited distance for Exploration Trade Routes, though, is the opposite of what happened. What made the Treasure Routes lucrative was the advent of ships like the early Nau and later Galleons that could travel much, much farther than anything before them. One of the most lucrative Spanish routes, for example, was from the Pacific coast of Mexico to Manila - clear across the Pacific in one jump - trading American silver, which the Chinese desperately needed to keep their currency afloat, for Chinese goods like porcelain and silk. It was, basically, a Money Pot, part of an early 'triangle trade' that moved the Chinese goods on to Spain and Europe for sale and thus made money on every leg.

Treasure Fleet as a term, though, really only relates to a few instances in a few countries. The more general trade, and overall far more profitable, was individual entrepreneurs or Trading Companies like the VOC in the Netherlands that set up 'Factories' or trading posts and monopolized every trade and good they could, culminating in the British "John Company" that practically ran India for the Crown and their own profit.

So (and this won't happen, because I'm sure they've already fixed their Exploration Age Trade Mechanic, it being so central to the Age) perhaps a Trading Company could be established that allowed you to set up Factories or specialized Trading Posts to extend both Gold Flow, distance and Influence in the lands in which they are established. Something like that, centered on the Trade Companies and their Posts, would allow the actual Routes to be representational and avoid some of the potential micromanagement of ships. fleets, and routes.

 

[Waranlee]

If you are ever in Malacca (Malaysia), they have an awesome museum about Zheng He and the treasure fleet, complete with dioramas.

View attachment 709251

Tho they spell it as Cheng Ho, and I spent embarrassingly long time in the museum thinking this was a second Chinese admiral and giant treasure fleet before realizing it was actually the same one I was already familiar with.

Seems like they could've done something cool with it.

Toooo bad. FXis DID NOT model Ming Carracks and Galleons properly. A roundship to the left should be localized carrack, while this capitol ship shown to the right should be galleon.

Where did this museum gets any details regarding to Zheng He's fleet?

Most of the depictions of Zheng He's fleet were fantastical in nature, not based on available evidence. Even if they do they are based on the drawings of the later eras. Most of the roundish ships in the photo (particularly the black-hulled one with red lines and the white-and-yellow hulled one) are not grounded in reality, I don't know who started depicting Zheng He's ship like that but those depictions are the most popular. The sail of the junk (battened) rig of this era would be squarish in shape (though it worked like a lugsail), not "fan-like" or "batwing-like", these later two only appeared after the 19th century.

The ship on the lower left seems to be partly based on the depiction of the "Tower ship" on this page, which explains Fuchuan. The rather long ship at the lower right is strange: While it has the more accurate square-shaped junk sail, it has a square topsail, a feature that might have been influenced by European ships after the 17th century. But it also has a middle deckhouse with crenellations like early Chinese ships. None of the models are accurate in depicting Zheng He's fleet.

File:Jonque de Mer de "A Propos des Voyages Aventureux de Fernand Mendez Pinto".jpg - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

File:ZhengHeShips.gif - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

File:Zheng He's visits to the West on the book "Heavenly Princess Classics" 1420.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

Where did this museum gets any details regarding to Zheng He's fleet?

The size endorsed by the Chinese government and embassies dictates that the flagship of Zheng He would be more than 120 m in length (44 zhang long with 1 zhang = 3 to 3.5 m). This ignores the fact that other Chinese texts recorded European ships far larger than that (150 and even 180 m in length). The problem would be in the conversion of the unit used, available archaeological findings of the Chinese measurement ruler put the zhang unit as equivalent to 1.5 to 1.6 m.

Detail notwithstanding, miniature depictions of Zheng He's fleet almost always have an inconsistent scale. The ship on the center and lower right would have an enormous deck height compared to ships on the left. You can also see this in the popular (but propagandistic) depiction of Zheng He's baochuan compared to Columbus' ship: The deck and the mast on the treasure ship would have been several times larger compared to Columbus'. The drawing-accurate depiction of Zheng He's flagship would be the model made by maritime archaeologist Nick Burningham.

This scale model reflects a more realistic, but still awe-inspiring, length of over 190 feet (57.9 m).

 

[marioflag]

Anyone know where have they taken the Ming emblem and what does it represent?

 

[8housesofelixir]

Anyone know where have they taken the Ming emblem and what does it represent?

It is a Fenghuang, a mystical bird usually used as a symbol for the imperial house, similar to Loong/Chinese Dragon.

I believe the emblem itself is taken from a typical porcelain pattern for Fenghuang, similar to this one:



(Although personally, I feel that having Fenghuang for Ming is primarily due to the need to differentiate them from Qing, which uses the typical Loong as their emblem.)